-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade - Coteries of New York + Shadows of New York standalone expansion
- Thread starter LESS T_T
- Start date
True Ukrainian
Arcane
Coteries of New York is honestly not worth buying. It's only around three hours long.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 97,440
Last edited by a moderator:
Zyondyne
Learned
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2019
- Messages
- 101
And that kinda sums it up.
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Messages
- 35,797
Unsurprising given that the lead is one of those self-loathing Poles
If Shadows shares the same writer, easy skip. No credits available yet though.
Last edited:
True Ukrainian
Arcane
Is it as short as Coteries?
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,380
I haven't seen Ecaterina in a solid minute. I think Redemption was the first Diablo knockoff I had played following the original.
lightbane
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 10,199
Apparently subtlety is racist or something.
GreyWardens Rock
Scholar
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2016
- Messages
- 146
Wish there was a "that's telltale" rating.
That a compliment?
It's easier for me too, especially as a silent protagonist, then I can brush bad writing, specifically out of place reactions or lack there of, as not knowing better. With a male I get too involved, and expect the PC to react how I would.
Theldaran
Liturgist
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,772
If you keep buying the games... which you won't of course, there's bound to be some Sabbat.
This is just one of those games for newbies, or for people who don't really like the thing, if you will (POE = BG for the people who don't like BG, so you understand me). As such, we start with the basics, you're embraced by a Camarilla vampire (Brujah, Ventrue or Toreador), then the prince(ss) of New York is a Ventrue, etc.
Like some newbie stories from VTM the drama revolves between Camarilla and Anarchs, read, Caitiffs, thin bloods, etc. It's an OK story if you like WOD. But not the best thing ever or anything.
The Ventrue girl is complete with her clan's weakness, well portrayed, and this gives deeper immersion into good old VTM. Of course don't expect to have a character sheet, this is not a true simulation of VTM, and the story is railroaded, but with choices (which are kinda obvious though)... though something like Disco Elysium but set into WOD would probably sell like hotcake, wonder why they don't do it. Of course these games are very cheap budget-wise, still can serve to scratch the itch.
All in all it's pretty entertaining to clear all the Steam achievements as in any visual novel.
Maybe the Werewolf game will be fresher.
This is just one of those games for newbies, or for people who don't really like the thing, if you will (POE = BG for the people who don't like BG, so you understand me). As such, we start with the basics, you're embraced by a Camarilla vampire (Brujah, Ventrue or Toreador), then the prince(ss) of New York is a Ventrue, etc.
Like some newbie stories from VTM the drama revolves between Camarilla and Anarchs, read, Caitiffs, thin bloods, etc. It's an OK story if you like WOD. But not the best thing ever or anything.
The Ventrue girl is complete with her clan's weakness, well portrayed, and this gives deeper immersion into good old VTM. Of course don't expect to have a character sheet, this is not a true simulation of VTM, and the story is railroaded, but with choices (which are kinda obvious though)... though something like Disco Elysium but set into WOD would probably sell like hotcake, wonder why they don't do it. Of course these games are very cheap budget-wise, still can serve to scratch the itch.
All in all it's pretty entertaining to clear all the Steam achievements as in any visual novel.
Maybe the Werewolf game will be fresher.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,178
I've finished it twice, first with Toreador and then with Ventrue. Don't think playing with Brujah will add anything new, so I uninstalled it. Game's short and too linear, you choices don't matter very much and you will get the same ending in the end. Other than that, it was very fun to play, art and music are good, writing is mostly okay and sometimes really good. Devs were clearly inspired by Bloodlines and you will notice many ideas they used from that game, although they twisted it to something different. The overall atmosphere is very dark and I like it. They got the vampire mythos right. They got New York right - game reminds me of that famous playthroughs by Darth Roxor I followed here years ago.
Tom Selleck
Arcane
- Joined
- May 6, 2013
- Messages
- 1,206
Mild spoilers, but don't play it unless you're weirdly into the universe or vampires, like a gross weirdo.
I had the first one for some reason (likely some bundle) so I was bored and I gave it a shot. And someone earlier in the thread already said, you have to like, suck the cuck to continue in the story but it's all so shallow and poorly written that it's aggravating more than enticing. Nothing about the setup was like "fuck yeah, damn, I wanna learn more about these stock garbage characters quite obviously written by millennial writers who've only ever grown up with mass media informing their entire worldviews and personalities, please churn out 210,000 words of this."
I tried to do anything independently (stupid options that would obviously not work since you're being held up by Vamp from MGS2) and within 5 minutes of starting the game I had my legs cut off and I died, which I'm sure is like a "haha you died, now play it again the right way and discover our captivating characters and literary world-building" but fuck you Draw Distance, it was a fitting end for my sad sack whiny bullshit character who broke up with an ugly skid of a woman, that I feel satisfied with my time and that's my canon ending.
I had the first one for some reason (likely some bundle) so I was bored and I gave it a shot. And someone earlier in the thread already said, you have to like, suck the cuck to continue in the story but it's all so shallow and poorly written that it's aggravating more than enticing. Nothing about the setup was like "fuck yeah, damn, I wanna learn more about these stock garbage characters quite obviously written by millennial writers who've only ever grown up with mass media informing their entire worldviews and personalities, please churn out 210,000 words of this."
I tried to do anything independently (stupid options that would obviously not work since you're being held up by Vamp from MGS2) and within 5 minutes of starting the game I had my legs cut off and I died, which I'm sure is like a "haha you died, now play it again the right way and discover our captivating characters and literary world-building" but fuck you Draw Distance, it was a fitting end for my sad sack whiny bullshit character who broke up with an ugly skid of a woman, that I feel satisfied with my time and that's my canon ending.
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 18,001
I had let's plays of Coteries and Shadows running in the background while doing other stuff because I was curious. Now I have opinions. I never expected them to have good writing, and surprise, surprise they didn't. Both of them read like a millennial's fantasy of having a modicum of upward mobility in society. It was kind of genuinely sad, actually. Most of the vampires were scummy and petty, which is what they should be. The whole situation did very well illustrate how pointless and self-contained the powerplays between them actually are. The overall plot of these two games is ok, a bit trivial and uninteresting, but it got the job done of pitting characters against each other. Speaking of characters, they are obviously the focus of these VNs, which is what VtM in general is about.
PC in Coteries - as bland and blank slate-y as they come. There are three clans to choose from for two reasons. The first is you can't see everything in one go, so the little quirks and different origin stories make a subsequent playthrough that much more varied. The second is audience expectations, I guess. The clan weakness with the most narratively dramatic potential was curiously the Ventrue's pickiness. They didn't use it when it would be most effective (drinking from the taxi driver after getting beat up by Callihan), though. She is extremely picky about what kind of blood she can consume and I understand now why the Ventrue are how they are. They aren't so much "born" higher class and destined to be rich and influential, but they actively need to be that in order to reliably have access to the specific blood they can drink. This, while clever, kinda misses the point. Irl, you *are* born into money and influence, so this American Dream-like inversion kinda falls flat for me. You can argue that Ventrue choose people who are already upper class, so it's a circle of blood and power, but the mere possibility of turning anyone into a Ventrue regardless of status muddies the waters a little bit. I suppose the whole "anyone can be powerful and noteworthy (i.e. a vampire)" is one of the draws of this setting and maybe vampires in general, so I can't fault it too much. It only kinda frustrates me when there is an upper-class clan to shine a light on the whole thing. The other interpretation I can more get behind is that while the Ventrue can potentially choose to ordain anyone into money and status (just like rich people irl), they actively don't and keep that power in a tightly-controlled group. Well, that was certainly a tangent, but it doesn't pertain to the two VNs, so whatever, I just wanted to get it out of my system. PC in Coteries bland and underused.
Qadir - likeable and hot. Which is what they were going for, so good job there. Ok, I suppose they wanted to bring out the tragic circumstances of his having to be an executioner and follow the arcane rules of Jyhad even though he doesn't want to and feels for most of the people he has to hunt down, but since he's only in the VNs to make it easier on the fledglings, that doesn't really go anywhere and he doesn't change throughout or do anything unexpected.
Sophie Langley - obviously in over her head from the very beginning, very transparent manipulation tactics that work out as well as you'd expect in the end. I don't really have much to say about her, she's an RPG quest giver.
The Court - none of them are particularly developed as characters. Arturo being the one behind it is whatever, it could've been literally anyone else from there and it wouldn't have mattered. I liked Aisling the most, she's my type of woman. She'll blind you with science and then suck you dry (of blood, not the other thing). The thinblood Primogen was weird and unnecessary, his face constantly reminded me of someone (famous) but I still can't put my finger on who.
Hope - oh, boy, she's a doozy. She's pure aesthetics. A Malk who streams online for her hundreds of sock puppet accounts and made a fortune from cryptocurrency. Another millennial power fantasy, that of your thousands of hours of online activity somehow getting you somewhere. She's less of a character and more that. There is a subtle undertone of the Matrix and/or Baudrillard somewhere in there, but I'm not quite sure what the reference is supposed to say in this context. I, too, have seen the Matrix and/or read Baudrillard, game. Her themes are not subtle and she isn't either. Mary Sue to a fault. She kinda blames the ghouls in Double Spiral for their own enslavement, which is certainly a choice. It's implied she commits diablerie against her nemesis in her quest, which would make her a sinner in the eyes of the Camarilla, but not only nothing bad happens to her she also becomes the new CEO of Double Spiral. She's unhappy about it, so there's that. Like I said, Mary Sue to a fault.
Agathon - notable for being the only heterosexual vampire in existence, which is ironic considering the "real" Agathon, i.e. the Ancient Greek tragedian, was everything but straight. I don't have much to say about him because I can't find a video with his questline, so I have no idea. He seems like a stereotypical Tremere, though. I'd take his sire over him any day.
D'Angelo - meh. Stand-up guy and probably the only one who isn't a loony in one way or another and he thinks he's worse than he actually is. His questline is straight-up nonsense, it literally doesn't make sense, everyone acts out of character and it goes nowhere fast. The moral of the story is demented serial killers are fine as long as they are young and innocent-looking, I guess. Next.
Tamika - as boring as it gets. Mopey Mary Sue. Tragedies happen to her and she's the alpha Gangrel girlboss of the park who can handle them after being sad for a few minutes. Her only really noticeable quality is being black. That's not a character trait, game. She likes walking everywhere, I suppose. Comes with a thug brother that does nothing but antagonize you and then either dies or doesn't after an SI raid. Tamika goes on a rampage against them in the second game after being totes in love with the black Baron of New York. She adds another personality trait to her growing repertoire - she doesn't like Torque dealing with the Camarilla and betraying his alleged convictions. Which is unironically something, too bad she has more personality in Shadows where she's there for all of 5 minutes.
Boss Callihan - a pre-packaged antagonist for the 21st century. Also Irish. Irredeemably racist, sexist, homophobic, jarringly so. Idolizes Lord Castlereagh, a widely reviled Irish politician who suppressed, abused, and massacred his own people and supporters. Castlereagh killed himself, so maybe he was sad about it. You are supposed to hate Callihan immediately and he beats you up after that. Don't get me wrong, he's bad and all that, but he's uninspired in his evilness.
Benoit Segal - the most pretentious and poorly written character in Coteries. It's obvious the writer/s don't have personal experience with religion or the stuff they want to talk about with him. At least he lives up to the Toreador stereotype of everything being skin-deep to them in the end of Shadows. I know what they were going for with him but the authors haven't read their Pope Benedict XVI to really know what they are talking about.
Julia Sowinski, the PC of Shadows - yikes. Cringe. The millennial dream of having the balls and the means of transcending your shitty existence by doing absolutely nothing. All of Tumblr want to be Julia Sowinski. If Boss Callihan is the antagonist for the 21st century, she's the protagonist. Has everything handed to her on a silver platter during her investigation and the only thing that came from her was the courage to speak up and lie during the last 20 minutes of the game. In the good ending that is, she doesn't do anything in the bad one, literally. Becomes more and more cruel as the game goes on because people are mean to her, to the point of selling out her girlfriend and best waifu Dakota. Seriously, the writers did Dakota dirty. Julia is unlikable, smarmy, pretentious to a fault, rude, but the writers don't see it that way and she's written straight. At least I think the writers view her in a positive light, it's kinda hard to tell. They show some kind of self-awareness in Shadows about a lot of characters, but it's very hard to judge with Julia. The various character traits she has (and she has many) don't really mesh into a coherent personality and it always feels like she's acting out of character whatever it is she's doing. I don't think Julia, the person whose inner thoughts and emotions are being presented to me, will do the things she does and it's extremely weird. I can talk more about her, but it feels too much already. It's a breath of fresh air to have a Lasombra protagonist, though.
All in all, these stories sure are something alright. I wouldn't have mustered the willingness to write all of this if they didn't make at least some kind of impression. They feel genuine and like a labor of fans who wanted to create them. The writers really wanted to express something and tried real hard to get that across, but they didn't have enough life experience and reading under their belt to know how and to find the right combination of words to fill the character-shaped holes they created, so it comes off as amateurish. However, I know what they are trying to tell me and it comes with good art to boot. The tragedy here is that there is no such easy solution to all of our problems as millennials, no vampire is going to come and make us have power over the people who hurt us and rob us of our chances for a good life. This isn't really a recommendation to play or look up these games, just a ...digital travelogue of something that caught my attention for one reason or another. But hey, if you are curious, go right ahead.
PC in Coteries - as bland and blank slate-y as they come. There are three clans to choose from for two reasons. The first is you can't see everything in one go, so the little quirks and different origin stories make a subsequent playthrough that much more varied. The second is audience expectations, I guess. The clan weakness with the most narratively dramatic potential was curiously the Ventrue's pickiness. They didn't use it when it would be most effective (drinking from the taxi driver after getting beat up by Callihan), though. She is extremely picky about what kind of blood she can consume and I understand now why the Ventrue are how they are. They aren't so much "born" higher class and destined to be rich and influential, but they actively need to be that in order to reliably have access to the specific blood they can drink. This, while clever, kinda misses the point. Irl, you *are* born into money and influence, so this American Dream-like inversion kinda falls flat for me. You can argue that Ventrue choose people who are already upper class, so it's a circle of blood and power, but the mere possibility of turning anyone into a Ventrue regardless of status muddies the waters a little bit. I suppose the whole "anyone can be powerful and noteworthy (i.e. a vampire)" is one of the draws of this setting and maybe vampires in general, so I can't fault it too much. It only kinda frustrates me when there is an upper-class clan to shine a light on the whole thing. The other interpretation I can more get behind is that while the Ventrue can potentially choose to ordain anyone into money and status (just like rich people irl), they actively don't and keep that power in a tightly-controlled group. Well, that was certainly a tangent, but it doesn't pertain to the two VNs, so whatever, I just wanted to get it out of my system. PC in Coteries bland and underused.
Qadir - likeable and hot. Which is what they were going for, so good job there. Ok, I suppose they wanted to bring out the tragic circumstances of his having to be an executioner and follow the arcane rules of Jyhad even though he doesn't want to and feels for most of the people he has to hunt down, but since he's only in the VNs to make it easier on the fledglings, that doesn't really go anywhere and he doesn't change throughout or do anything unexpected.
Sophie Langley - obviously in over her head from the very beginning, very transparent manipulation tactics that work out as well as you'd expect in the end. I don't really have much to say about her, she's an RPG quest giver.
The Court - none of them are particularly developed as characters. Arturo being the one behind it is whatever, it could've been literally anyone else from there and it wouldn't have mattered. I liked Aisling the most, she's my type of woman. She'll blind you with science and then suck you dry (of blood, not the other thing). The thinblood Primogen was weird and unnecessary, his face constantly reminded me of someone (famous) but I still can't put my finger on who.
Hope - oh, boy, she's a doozy. She's pure aesthetics. A Malk who streams online for her hundreds of sock puppet accounts and made a fortune from cryptocurrency. Another millennial power fantasy, that of your thousands of hours of online activity somehow getting you somewhere. She's less of a character and more that. There is a subtle undertone of the Matrix and/or Baudrillard somewhere in there, but I'm not quite sure what the reference is supposed to say in this context. I, too, have seen the Matrix and/or read Baudrillard, game. Her themes are not subtle and she isn't either. Mary Sue to a fault. She kinda blames the ghouls in Double Spiral for their own enslavement, which is certainly a choice. It's implied she commits diablerie against her nemesis in her quest, which would make her a sinner in the eyes of the Camarilla, but not only nothing bad happens to her she also becomes the new CEO of Double Spiral. She's unhappy about it, so there's that. Like I said, Mary Sue to a fault.
Agathon - notable for being the only heterosexual vampire in existence, which is ironic considering the "real" Agathon, i.e. the Ancient Greek tragedian, was everything but straight. I don't have much to say about him because I can't find a video with his questline, so I have no idea. He seems like a stereotypical Tremere, though. I'd take his sire over him any day.
D'Angelo - meh. Stand-up guy and probably the only one who isn't a loony in one way or another and he thinks he's worse than he actually is. His questline is straight-up nonsense, it literally doesn't make sense, everyone acts out of character and it goes nowhere fast. The moral of the story is demented serial killers are fine as long as they are young and innocent-looking, I guess. Next.
Tamika - as boring as it gets. Mopey Mary Sue. Tragedies happen to her and she's the alpha Gangrel girlboss of the park who can handle them after being sad for a few minutes. Her only really noticeable quality is being black. That's not a character trait, game. She likes walking everywhere, I suppose. Comes with a thug brother that does nothing but antagonize you and then either dies or doesn't after an SI raid. Tamika goes on a rampage against them in the second game after being totes in love with the black Baron of New York. She adds another personality trait to her growing repertoire - she doesn't like Torque dealing with the Camarilla and betraying his alleged convictions. Which is unironically something, too bad she has more personality in Shadows where she's there for all of 5 minutes.
Boss Callihan - a pre-packaged antagonist for the 21st century. Also Irish. Irredeemably racist, sexist, homophobic, jarringly so. Idolizes Lord Castlereagh, a widely reviled Irish politician who suppressed, abused, and massacred his own people and supporters. Castlereagh killed himself, so maybe he was sad about it. You are supposed to hate Callihan immediately and he beats you up after that. Don't get me wrong, he's bad and all that, but he's uninspired in his evilness.
Benoit Segal - the most pretentious and poorly written character in Coteries. It's obvious the writer/s don't have personal experience with religion or the stuff they want to talk about with him. At least he lives up to the Toreador stereotype of everything being skin-deep to them in the end of Shadows. I know what they were going for with him but the authors haven't read their Pope Benedict XVI to really know what they are talking about.
Julia Sowinski, the PC of Shadows - yikes. Cringe. The millennial dream of having the balls and the means of transcending your shitty existence by doing absolutely nothing. All of Tumblr want to be Julia Sowinski. If Boss Callihan is the antagonist for the 21st century, she's the protagonist. Has everything handed to her on a silver platter during her investigation and the only thing that came from her was the courage to speak up and lie during the last 20 minutes of the game. In the good ending that is, she doesn't do anything in the bad one, literally. Becomes more and more cruel as the game goes on because people are mean to her, to the point of selling out her girlfriend and best waifu Dakota. Seriously, the writers did Dakota dirty. Julia is unlikable, smarmy, pretentious to a fault, rude, but the writers don't see it that way and she's written straight. At least I think the writers view her in a positive light, it's kinda hard to tell. They show some kind of self-awareness in Shadows about a lot of characters, but it's very hard to judge with Julia. The various character traits she has (and she has many) don't really mesh into a coherent personality and it always feels like she's acting out of character whatever it is she's doing. I don't think Julia, the person whose inner thoughts and emotions are being presented to me, will do the things she does and it's extremely weird. I can talk more about her, but it feels too much already. It's a breath of fresh air to have a Lasombra protagonist, though.
All in all, these stories sure are something alright. I wouldn't have mustered the willingness to write all of this if they didn't make at least some kind of impression. They feel genuine and like a labor of fans who wanted to create them. The writers really wanted to express something and tried real hard to get that across, but they didn't have enough life experience and reading under their belt to know how and to find the right combination of words to fill the character-shaped holes they created, so it comes off as amateurish. However, I know what they are trying to tell me and it comes with good art to boot. The tragedy here is that there is no such easy solution to all of our problems as millennials, no vampire is going to come and make us have power over the people who hurt us and rob us of our chances for a good life. This isn't really a recommendation to play or look up these games, just a ...digital travelogue of something that caught my attention for one reason or another. But hey, if you are curious, go right ahead.
Last edited:
I like to think she would respect power and position instead of love, after her sacrifice ending. And isn't that every modern rich marriage ever?
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 18,001
Respect is a strong word. I don't think Julia respects anything and I don't know why she was with Dakota in the first place (before starting to leech her blood almost every night after becoming a vampire). Kaiser called her a psycho and I might agree with him on that one. She wants power and position, but that doesn't mean she respects anyone else's.
wishbonetail
Learned
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 671
I played both "games" a while ago and, interestingly enough, while I can call Coteries a VN albeit a weak one, they really dropped the ball in Shadows. Second game has almost no player agency, it is just a series of pictures wtih background music, almost no interactive dialogs, couple of choices here and there. Really lazy, you may as well find some comic book and listen to music while leaf through.
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 18,001
The second game not giving you much agency was, afaik, an intentional design decision and not laziness. I think people complained about not being able to save anywhere to see what outcome different choices are going to have and were forced to replay the whole game to see that, so they axed most of the branching options.
Last edited:
Theldaran
Liturgist
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,772
To be fair, there are VNs with no choices, straight text ("kinetic" novels), but they tend to be simple stories with no different partitions, which would be routes, or character stories.
I think Shadows is one of these, since these games don't last much, it's like an imitation of Japan but, "give us munie because we're cool Poles". Lazy. I mean that Japanese games, in most cases, last much more and go into much more detail.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.