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Crafting sucks in 99% of cases

Cyberarmy

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Anything more than Gothic 2 or Baldur' Gate 2 crafting is trouble in my book. Most of the time the shit you endured to craft in new "crafting" don't worth your time a bit.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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As with any other game mechanic or system*, crafting cannot be evaluated in isolation but instead must be related to the other aspects of the game and how they interact with each other. In a game with considerable survival aspects, such as Outward, crafting is essential to gameplay, since it allows the player to obtain raw materials from the environment and turn them into consumable items, weapons, armor, or other equipment, even if the items crafted are basic or even purchasable from certain sources. Similarly, it makes sense to be able to craft bullets or medicine in a post-apocalyptic game such as Fallout: New Vegas, even if the survival elements are quite limited.

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Moreover, I don't think a crafting system for the creation of generic, basic items should be conflated with the generation of more high-powered, esoteric items that are otherwise difficult, if not impossible to acquire. Arcanum, for example, has a series of technological disciplines that allow the player to create steampunk wonders such as a chapeau of magnetic inversion or a mechanized arachnid, and furthermore there are additional items unlocked from schematics, such as a reanimator or pyrotechnic axe.

Similarly, enchanting or similar systems that permit the player to modify existing items should not be conflated with crafting and should enjoy a broader usage in CRPGs. Daggerfall and Morrowind, for example, both have entertaining enchantment systems that take advantage of those games' considerable variety of spell effects.

* Except real-time-with-pause combat, which is an abomination unto the LORD.
 
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Seems to me what most folks are railing against is actually the boring gathering that masquerades as crafting. What I suspect everyone here actually wants from a crafting system is to be Conan's father, sharpening the blade, deciding its length, sculpting the hilt and so forth. Or else, be Conan himself finding the rusty Atlantean Sword in a dimly lit tomb and getting it back to working order.

If the former then I'd say developers should just give us the damned tools already. Dedicated crafters will happily spend hours skinning and modeling their own shit, and if your game is multiplayer an economy will spawn from it. People will pay for good art. APB did this excellently and to this day I haven't seen a game with better character customization. That's the cosmetic side handled and that's enough to get the average player interested.

For the gameplay focused among us, the components need to be found in more complex versions of BGII's scavenger hunts via quests or in random dungeons. These can be as modular as you like, their origins should remain vague but the player should know they're from some sort of lost civilization or legendary figure. They need to be a variety of shapes and sizes. Scent-stopper pommels, steel rondel guards, brass wheel pommels, pollaxe heads, nagels, tapered blades and so on. All these need to be player-customizable in three dimensions within reason. Crossguard too small? Input a new value and maybe that changes the stats too. When you're remaking whatever the weapon happens to be, part of you should inevitably transfer into the final work. Maybe that could take the form of a stat-boost to reflect how your character favors fighting. Perhaps alignment could come into play somehow imbuing certain magics for good or evil. Whatever the case, these weapons should not trump everything else that you could find as loot. They should be comparable remembering that the pre-made shit also belonged to a famous king, knight, warlock, whatever.

Other than that, it would probably be wise for the devs to put some* templates into the game to give players who aren't creative a way to engage with the system. I think libraries and books might be able to play a role in granting the recipes for these unique items. Let the player discern the look of a legendary weapon by reading about it in books and scrolls not directly relating to the item. Don't ever describe the item in full, just reveal different characteristics of it in each account. Let that be a scavenger hunt unto itself to see if players can eventually piece it together. Maybe parts of it are lost so the player has to decide how that weapon is going to change with the times.
 

ShaggyMoose

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I thought it was done well in Evil Islands. Before that I never thought I'd enjoy crafting in a CRPG.
I tend to think of this as an enhancement system, rather than traditional crafting. Being able to decide how to improve equipment rather than just "fetch X mats for upgrade Y" is far more rewarding/engaging. Gem socketing type systems with synergistic effects between enhancements but also with skills fall into this category as well.
 

Reinhardt

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I depends. I actually enjoy crafting in games like Atelier series, where it's main dish. When it's side activity on the other hand - please, keep it as simple as possible or not include at all.
In crpgs crafting usually is hobo simulator instead of playing proper alchemist or mechanic. Vacuum all literal trash in the world in hope you can use it later in some dumb recipe. Especially if it's something like skyrim or dos - "see this wooden spoon? YOU CAN PICK IT!!1"
 
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octavius

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I thought it was done well in Evil Islands. Before that I never thought I'd enjoy crafting in a CRPG.
I tend to think of this as an enhancement system, rather than traditional crafting. Being able to decide how to improve equipment rather than just "fetch X mats for upgrade Y" is far more rewarding/engaging. Gem socketing type systems with synergistic effects between enhancements but also with skills fall into this category as well.

Point.
 

gurugeorge

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It really depends on whether the crafting is designed to fit into an MMO multiplayer context or not, especially a guild context.

Massive harvesting and crafting makes sense for a multiplayer game with guilds, but it's horrible in a single-player game.

But in a single-player game, crafting your own small scale stuff or sharpening your weapons, etc., can be fun and immersive if crafting is one of several non-combat skills that you can level up without having to sacrifice combat effectiveness. I think if you can craft things to "green" or "blue" level without too much investment that's fine, and it can be a satisfying equivalent of finding such things through questing, particularly in a game with lots of weapon variety where you're not always guaranteed to find things you can use.

The most fun crafting system mechanically that I ever came across was the one in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. It gave you a really strong illusion of actually crafting things, and the quality of them was pitched just right.
 

Haba

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Crafting is a shitty mechanic if it is an afterthought.

If you can't put in the effort, keep it simple. Like in Jagged Alliance. But even there it becomes a bit of an issue, as you feel like you have to upgrade every piece of gear you have around.
 

V_K

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Lots of meaningless inventory features - crafting, trash loot, inventory limitations - are only meaningless because of the total disappearance of resource management.
In a game with equipment deterioration, both trash loot and crafting of mundane weapons suddenly make sense, because they might end up being your only recourse when your sword of awesomeness suddly breaks.
 

JarlFrank

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I am not sure what your point is JarlFrank

Yes, if you make crafting in MMO fashion it will be grindy and boring. But it doesn't mean the crafting itself is at fault - it's its makers' fault. In order for crafting to work it has to be simple yet meaningful, allowing you to juggle limited resources to get what you need most at the given moment. I would argue that with a good design you could make an excellent crafting system that enhances the overall experience.

My point is that the feature is becoming so common, it's becoming rare to see RPGs without it almost as if developers (and a part of the community) see it as a mandatory component of RPGs.
Especially when it's an open world 3D RPG, there's a high chance it will feature crafting... including the ability to build your own house from harvested wood and stone.

I've seen people complain about the lack of crafting systems in games that don't have them. When Realms Beyond was still a thing and I worked on it, we had people go "The game should have crafting! Why isn't there crafting? It's an RPG, crafting should be in it!!" because apparently for some reason people like forging generic swords that you can just as easily buy from the town's blacksmith. And I don't get the appeal of it.

The problem is that most games that implement crafting do it in the boring, generic and grindy way. Crafting done right is a real rarity.

I enjoyed it in BG2, but that wasn't really a crafting system. You had a bunch of unique items that were split into pieces, and could bring those pieces to a specific NPC to re-forge them. This is just finding a unique handplaced artifact with extra steps.
Arcanum's crafting was decent too, you never had to go and farm for resources and some of the Vendigrothian recipes required unique components that had to be found through exploration.
I have no idea about Underrail's crafting because despite playing through the game twice, I never used crafting in it.
 
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Lots of meaningless inventory features - crafting, trash loot, inventory limitations - are only meaningless because of the total disappearance of resource management.
In a game with equipment deterioration, both trash loot and crafting of mundane weapons suddenly make sense, because they might end up being your only recourse when your sword of awesomeness suddly breaks.

YMMV but to me equipment degradation is also largely a pointless waste of time in an otherwise fully featured RPG. I haven't enjoyed the mechanic even where the gameplay is largely built around it (BotW) because I'm neither particularly interested in trying lots of weapons in a short amount of time, nor in the emergent gameplay that results from degradation. I know many people are, and it is a valid design choice if well executed, I just personally don't like it and would rather focus on a handful of weapons with which I slowly get proficient and perhaps gradually upgrade (Dark Souls).

I don't mind resource management too much in itself, as long as it's tied to gameplay and not overly a burden (e.g. not the "survival" kind). Again, YMMV.

Relatedly, it occurs to me that crafting and/or an emphasis on loot are the antithesis of the design I prefer: a small selection of widely varied equipment in every category, with the best of each locked behind questlines or particularly difficult exploration. But most of the time devs can't help themselves but to instead pad their games with "addictive" time-wasting gameplay loops of some sort, be it crafting, trash loot, random drops or the like, probably because it takes very little effort to make the player waste hours upon hours in grinding, while gameplay systems, balance, exploration and expansive questlines are very resource intensive.

I don't mind it so much when a crafting system is properly tied to the lore and gameplay (alchemy in The Witcher has been mentioned). One of the worst examples of the opposite approach is (ironically) Cyberpunk 2077, a game whose crafting and loot systems are so bloated and pointless as to affect even immersion, and which would have benefited from a drastic simplification (e.g. just copying Deus Ex) even if all that effort had not be spent elsewhere instead.
 

InSight

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The reason/explanation/cause for the claim "crafting sucks 99% of cases" in CRPG, is due them not being frequent/often and integral/important to the game. The games can be advanced/completed without them unlike games in the Strategy genre.

To give a better overview, a point to compare with:
A genre where crafting is fundamental/basic/important to the game is in Real-Time-Strategy, Strategy games and alike(city building/crafting games).

When base crafting is consider, one cannot overcome the goal/objective/mission without having something produced=created=crafted within the game rules(not cheating).
Base's can be seen like a mold in which an blacksmith poor the melted metal(resource) for it to take shape, producing a craft. Cars are a craft too, which can move, be mobile for its designed/created/crafted to be like units in RTS games.
More so, their efficiency of use,resource, situations and timing has greater emphasize for resources can be limited and mistakes leads them to be lost/destroyed and thus constantly need replenish them and/or juggle between units that can be crafted, until the goal/objective/mission is achieved.

Such as when one creates units that cant target air-units, plans or places them in their reach of air units will often result in them destroyed if they can attack from air to ground, unless commands are issued.
An example that distinguish/separates a good crafter from a bad one.
A good crafter should know what,how, when and for what to craft and use even before hand.
Good crafting game would highlight/emphasize/center it.

The crafted units position, use, cost and effect are important throughout the game/match. They are of interested to good player who desire to win. They cannot be forgotten/ignored(depending on the opponent/conditions/difficulty) as often in CRPG.

- farm resources by standing next to an ore vein and attacking it with your pickaxe till it's harvested
- gather 100 pieces of the resource so you can craft a weapon or a piece of armor
- farm the next better resource to improve your equipment

Replace farm into collecting, and a pick-axe into harvesting unit or building and gather enough pieces of until one can combine them(resource+building) into a unit and in essence,its core in root, when playing for example an RTS, one is playing a crafting game or a game which cannot be progressed without it and so does it often. An observation which I support.
Warcraft becomes a very fitting name.
In essence, crafting is combining existing things(be it game resources) into other things.

Contrast/compared to CRPG in which crafting is spare and even if unneeded can obsolete the challenge provided by the game which is too often spare/rare/not often. Example in Divinity Original Sin; crating weapons simplifies/obsolete much need for consideration when most enemies even the final boss strongest unit can be down in 1 round.

Crafting in Strategy games cannot be ignored and is the seed of every action. Crafting in CRPG can be ignored and can lessen the some of the desired experience.

By that line of reason, character creation is too a craft and important one depending on the game design and appealing one based on the time player spent in it or restart the game due to it.
But it is often a single affair, a thing to consider at the start only with not all games make this aspect interesting on each level up(in ability wise not stats-wise alone) which happens from gathering Experience Points, a resource.
For interesting/good/advanced crafting implementation in RPG, i would take the forum member anvi's description of it in Vanguard MMORPG. In MMORPG, crating has more use if they are essential to the economy, the produced thing cannot be found/obtained otherwise.
Witcher 1 on hard difficulty would be a good example of crafting being integral/necessary/important to the game and its existence as rule/action/mechanic compliment the settings, the game world.

Games such as League of Legends and DOTA 1&2 and the like, which can be classified as CRPG(Combat and team Roles tank,support ,jungler, carry,top/bot/mid lane ,multiplayer ect)if settings/world and character change/impact not considered ,has much more significant/vital crafting system.
Item combination results into greater items. [shop+money]=[item A], [shop+money+item A]=[item B]
an item crafted/created and when combined with other resources(money and other items), become to even greater items,a more advanced craft such as Infinity Edge or BlackKing Bar. These greater items can unlock additional abilities, opening the options on what a player can or cannot do to win the match.
Their acquisition can decide the outcome of each battle and thus the game/match and represent the player skill(even if guides normalize it) for one has a limit of 6 out of many options available the order of getting them too is limited by resources/opposition that are varied between each match.
*reminder that most CRPG as known to us are about 90-98% tactics/strategy and not role-playing, hence the C.


Crafting in CRPG is a mini-game not the main game thus the least resources and advancement from the developers would be put into it for it is not the main attraction, crafting is a side-line, a side-dish as most side-quest's are. The results are: their is less variety in it and not more and that is why they are usually poor/bad/faulty/tedious.
 
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Crafting only really works for consumables. Like others have stated, Arcanum is one of the rare games that gets it right. The pyramid of complexity enables staples to be abundant without getting game-breaking OP like in ToEE. The majority of the craftable items are also consumable, so no coincidences there.
 

Fowyr

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In a game with equipment deterioration, both trash loot and crafting of mundane weapons suddenly make sense, because they might end up being your only recourse when your sword of awesomeness suddly breaks.
Yep, in The Summoning, until you got the unbreakable Warmonger, even lowly falchion was useful.
 

gurugeorge

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I wouldn't mind degredation except it's often handled without much sense - having percentage degredation to some arbitrary point where the weapon doesn't work at all, wtf does that represent? Degredation should mean slightly greater risk of jamming, loss of accuracy, things like that; you should naturally feel the need to fix up or replace your weapons.

The "80% degraded" model also annoys me because it makes me OCD about having the weapons at 100%, so I neurotically top them up at every available opportunity, even though I could probably leave it till much later. I think it's that extra burden on the mind ("is it near the point of uselessness yet?" - *nervously checks*) that's annoying.
 

xuerebx

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I agree. I'd rather have a simple crafting system over a really complicating system where you need to read an online wiki to understand how it all works. Maybe I say this because it's not a value-add to me.
 

Reinhardt

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Lots of meaningless inventory features - crafting, trash loot, inventory limitations - are only meaningless because of the total disappearance of resource management.
In a game with equipment deterioration, both trash loot and crafting of mundane weapons suddenly make sense, because they might end up being your only recourse when your sword of awesomeness suddly breaks.
Abydon's challenge was dumbest and most annoying thing in Deadfire. And it's fucking Deadfire - it's full of unfun things. Fuck equipment deterioration with burning nailed siege ram.
 

V_K

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I prefer: a small selection of widely varied equipment in every category, with the best of each locked behind questlines or particularly difficult exploration.
I don't disagree with that, but this approach brings its own problems.
It'd work in a party-based game with a compact gameworld and no shops, like Grimrock 2 for example (but even Grimrock 2 would have trash loot problem if you didn't need it to weigh down pressure plates). Otherwise, what would you fill the space with? And what would the enemies drop? If you just leave the space empty or fill it with combats (or other challenges) 90% of which don't reward you anything other than XP, you'll have boring ass exploration. And if most enemies/containers would just have consumables on them, then you again have a trash loot problem, just trash loot are now consumables (which are already trash loot in most games, but that's a different discussion).
Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it heavily limits what kind of game you can make. You can't make a TES-like (i.e. a single-character game with a large open world) with that approach, for example.

Abydon's challenge was dumbest and least enjoyable thing in Deadfire. And it's fucking Deadfire - it's full of unfun things.
A game with some of the most uninspired systems has an uninspired implementation of equipment degradation. What a complete surprise.
 

KateMicucci

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Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it heavily limits what kind of game you can make. You can't make a TES-like (i.e. a single-character game with a large open world) with that approach, for example.
Fallout 3/NV handled this fine. Every dungeon had one unique powerful item in it. A stat-boosting bobblehead, or a named weapon that was more powerful than other weapons with the same model.

Of course Oblivion dungeons often had nothing valuable in them at all, and Skyrim and Fallout 4 mostly had randomized levelled loot boxes. Fallout 4 especially dropped off because it heavily leaned on weapon crafting and attachments.
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Especially when it's an open world 3D RPG, there's a high chance it will feature crafting... including the ability to build your own house from harvested wood and stone.

They need to fill their oversized worlds with something to do and there’s too much dead space to fill with ”big-deal” content. Generic busywork like crafting and component harvesting fits the bill with the intended audience.

I can kinda see the appeal of ”find stuff -> combine stuff -> reward: item & XP” as it fills the sort of low level urge to accomplish something beyond the usual story/mission grind, but it’s not really something I can say to enjoy.
 

JarlFrank

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I prefer: a small selection of widely varied equipment in every category, with the best of each locked behind questlines or particularly difficult exploration.
I don't disagree with that, but this approach brings its own problems.
It'd work in a party-based game with a compact gameworld and no shops, like Grimrock 2 for example (but even Grimrock 2 would have trash loot problem if you didn't need it to weigh down pressure plates). Otherwise, what would you fill the space with? And what would the enemies drop? If you just leave the space empty or fill it with combats (or other challenges) 90% of which don't reward you anything other than XP, you'll have boring ass exploration. And if most enemies/containers would just have consumables on them, then you again have a trash loot problem, just trash loot are now consumables (which are already trash loot in most games, but that's a different discussion).
Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it heavily limits what kind of game you can make. You can't make a TES-like (i.e. a single-character game with a large open world) with that approach, for example.

Can't you make a TES-like game with that approach?

"Filling space" with filler just ends up creating a more boring gameplay loop than not filling it at all, tbh. Trash mob encounters are boring to fight and trash loot is boring to pick up and sell. It may as well not be there.

A game like Morrowind with its 16 layered equipment slots is actually pretty great for spacing out the unique items and not having crafting.
In fact... that's pretty much what Morrowind is doing if you ignore the existence of alchemy (which is merely crafting consumables). Traveling from place to place only has a few wild animal encounters that don't pose too much of a challenge by the mid-game, while the few hand-placed bandit groups don't drop anything beyond their simple clothes, cheap armor and unenchanted weapons. But the dungeons you can find on the way sometimes contain cool unique items which you'll hold onto for the rest of the game. And with so many different equipment slots, each item you find has a high chance of being useful to you.

Finding the Dragonbone Cuirass which offers 100% immunity to fire damage in a sunken Dwemer ruin hidden within an underwater grotto is really fucking cool. It rewards exploration with one of the best armors in the game... but it doesn't obsolete all other cuirasses because the Savior's Hide offers 60% magicka resistance, which is better against anything that isn't fire.

It's the best way to handle itemization. You always have the chance to find something unique, but it's not guaranteed and you're not sure if it's better than what you currently have, so exploration stays exciting.
I don't see how adding generic crafting materials so you can forge your own equipment would improve it.
 

JarlFrank

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Morrowind
Morrowind most definitely has a trash loot problem, 90% of the stuff you find are food and alchemy ingredients you'll never need.

Yeah that's why I just... don't pick it.

If you want to, you can even loot all the forks and plates and pots and whatnot, but why would you unless you're really hurting for gold and need to sell that junk?
I don't even open the inventory of slain beasts because I know they only drop fur and meat and shit (because they're animals, what else would they drop?).
 
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I prefer: a small selection of widely varied equipment in every category, with the best of each locked behind questlines or particularly difficult exploration.
I don't disagree with that, but this approach brings its own problems.
It'd work in a party-based game with a compact gameworld and no shops, like Grimrock 2 for example (but even Grimrock 2 would have trash loot problem if you didn't need it to weigh down pressure plates). Otherwise, what would you fill the space with? And what would the enemies drop? If you just leave the space empty or fill it with combats (or other challenges) 90% of which don't reward you anything other than XP, you'll have boring ass exploration. And if most enemies/containers would just have consumables on them, then you again have a trash loot problem, just trash loot are now consumables (which are already trash loot in most games, but that's a different discussion).
Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it heavily limits what kind of game you can make. You can't make a TES-like (i.e. a single-character game with a large open world) with that approach, for example.

On top of JarlFrank's comments, I just want to say that if combat is good and there are enough well-crafted encounters in the game (which, granted, is a huge if) then combat, coupled with exploration, is its own reward to me, and there doesn't really need to be an item drop for every enemy, except maybe, for flavor, their actual equipment (sometimes broken and worthless, for more flavor and also balance). There is of course a limit to this approach in that it's hard enough to fill a game with combat encounters and balance it all without also having to ensure that enough of the encounters are particularly well designed. Inevitably, most enemies will be trash mobs. Even so, I prefer to go through trash mobs without having to go through their inventories and only get valuable equipment from a minority of encounters or from exploration.

If it's action combat I don't even mind fighting the same respawning mob ad nauseam. In TB, I like it better when respawning low level mobs, if any, flee on sight above a certain level differential. If all else fails, I'll take a shorter game with smaller environments, so long as those environments are packed with good content, over a large game which is filled with trash mobs and too much loot.

Again, this doesn't really work for those who like a constant stream of loot with their combat, which is fair. Many games strike a good balance. The problem as I see it is the rise of generic crafting as a necessary mechanic in all genres, which is a relatively recent phenomenon, especially if coupled with an excessive reliance on mediocre trash combat to pad a game, which is a separate and much older issue.
 

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