Boomer shooters sometimes make better fantasy games than RPGs

[Thal]

I would say that what Doom did was that it clevery and purposefully induced in the player the fight part of the fight or flight reaction. The kind you get when you see a spider and, instead of running away, you stomp it again and again in bloodshot rage screaming your lungs out.

Thief went for almost the opposite with the zombie-levels such Bonehoard, for even better results. You can't even kill zombies permanently, except with holy water and fire. Looking Glass was so good at it that at the time of release the players (who I imagine were much younger than today) couldn't handle the stress and pegged zombie levels as a negative of otherwise brilliant game. Now we of course know better and regard Bonehoard as possibly the greatest level first person gaming.

 

[Greek Anime God]

Thief went for almost the opposite with the zombie-levels such Bonehoard, for even better results. You can't even kill zombies permanently, except with holy water and fire. Looking Glass was so good at it that at the time of release the players (who I imagine were much younger than today) couldn't handle the stress and pegged zombie levels as a negative of otherwise brilliant game. Now we of course know better and regard Bonehoard as possibly the greatest level first person gaming.

I couldn't deal with the mines in the second mission and had to nope out from the game. The audio design made the game too scary.

 

[hello friend]

One of those semi-old FPSes dripping with atmosphere is that Wheel of Time one. Now that was something. It's too bad it's not for sale anywhere.

 

[Riskbreaker]

Good man. Still recall the portion in the ruins early on with the demons - or whatever they were, I only ever read a bit of the first book many years ago - blending so smoothly with the shadows as if made of them. The exteriors partly bathed in striking moonlight while the thunderstorm approaches. Fantastic stuff.

Louis_Cypher
You tried Northern Journey yet mate? It captures the rawness, wonder, psychedelia of some authentic fairytale.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Never tried The Wheel of Time or Northern Journey, I'll have to give them a look. I'm currently playing Star Trek: Generations which is a pain to get working, but had some of the most varied levels of any Doom clone, a full inventory system, star system map with space travel, adventure game like puzzles, full voice acting and you could do many of the missions non-violently using a disguise. Really unique. It's really a lost game, since even most Trekkie gamers never gave it a shot. I found it at a PC World when I was a kid.

 

[gurugeorge]

Yeah I think there's some truth to this. And I think some of it has to do with the fact that the levels were designed for gameplay first, and just given some vague coat of paint in terms of meaning (of the building) and place in the world.

You were often wandering through spaces with incomprehensible cyclopean architecture, and that added to the sense of being unsettled, on edge.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I'm currently playing Star Trek: Generations which is a pain to get working, but had some of the most varied levels of any Doom clone, a full inventory system, star system map with space travel, adventure game like puzzles, full voice acting and you could do many of the missions non-violently using a disguise. Really unique. It's really a lost game, since even most Trekkie gamers never gave it a shot. I found it at a PC World when I was a kid.

I'm willing to bet nobody gave it a shot because Trek had so many great non-movie tie-ins. Most of those were crap, and Trek license or no Trek license, it was probably going to be crap too. The non-Trek gamer of course, wasn't looking for something that complex.

 

[luj1]

Who else feels that certain FPS games captured the atmosphere of being isolated, inside a lonely mythic world better than many RPGs do? I think there is something really compelling about the environmental storytelling and minimalist world-building of several boomer shooters, although it perhaps goes largely unnoticed while you play.

yes you are right

im amazed no one applied Quake-style environmental storytelling to RPGs yet. lots of secrets and and hand-placed details (such as a weapon next to a corpse impaled on a crystal, or a dead marine with a rebreather in an underwater secret, etc.). that kind of environmental storytelling reminds you of some games like Morrowind.

 

[Ravielsk]

I think it has to do a lot with the attitude "boomer shooters" have as opposed to RPGs. They are one of the few genres that fully embrace being video games and focus on the strengths of the medium instead of its deficiencies. They understand that they work in a different medium and so need to do things differently. RPGs and most other genre these days seem to have a problem with being video games. They are either trying to be movies or shitty novels and the video game aspect is usually put aside or bastardized. Doom establishes the demons in game not through a lengthy cutscene. Thief practically demonstrates the difference between poor and rich via its levels and Quake sells you its surreal atmosphere by simply being surreal. They do instead of show.

Its the main reason why I am such a fan of Gothic. It does not talk or exposit about the world, it makes that world functionally exist. You are poor, so are most other people. The enemies are not just described as dangerous but factually are and can overwhelm you. Armor is worth a lot and often the difference between death and survival and so on and so on. The game is not faking its atmosphere its actively making it. Compare that to something like Fallout 4 where the post-apocalypse has more ammo and food than a supermarket and the difference between a random hobo and the big green super mutant is like 2 extra button presses.

 

[lukaszek]

RPGs and most other genre these days seem to have a problem with being video games. They are either trying to be movies or shitty novels and the video game aspect is usually put aside or bastardized

some rpgs want to add 'tabletop' to their description and cling to dice

 

[toughasnails]

I never even heard of that Star Trek: Generations game so it's a genuine discovery. And it does look interesting, shades of Marathon and System Shock...

 

[AndyS]

In addition to all the other stuff mentioned, I think a singular intent is a factor. FPSs are designed to stick to a single mood the whole way through. RPGs, though, seem to usually craft the world, and then they get populated with different quests that each are intended to cover a separate base. So you'll get the Lovecraftian horror subquest in one section, but then another section has the Pythonesque humor quest, then there'll be a Shakespearean drama or something, then a homage to a Star Trek episode the writer really liked, etc. It's supposed to evoke the feel of a free-wheeling campaign setting, I guess, and if you're playing a Bioware game then the party members will occasionally make silly or snarky comments inspired by the stuff players say at the table in between gulps of junkfood. It dilutes the atmosphere.

 

[Mikeal]

One of those semi-old FPSes dripping with atmosphere is that Wheel of Time one. Now that was something. It's too bad it's not for sale anywhere.

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-wheel-of-time-dic

 

[hello friend]

nice

 

[Ravielsk]

In addition to all the other stuff mentioned, I think a singular intent is a factor. FPSs are designed to stick to a single mood the whole way through. RPGs, though, seem to usually craft the world, and then they get populated with different quests that each are intended to cover a separate base. So you'll get the Lovecraftian horror subquest in one section, but then another section has the Pythonesque humor quest, then there'll be a Shakespearean drama or something, then a homage to a Star Trek episode the writer really liked, etc. It's supposed to evoke the feel of a free-wheeling campaign setting, I guess, and if you're playing a Bioware game then the party members will occasionally make silly or snarky comments inspired by the stuff players say at the table in between gulps of junkfood. It dilutes the atmosphere.

Yeah, that can be a problem but its really just a problem of integration. If you just copy paste a scene from Avengers into your medieval fantasy game then its going be a problem. When mixxing genres you need to pick a dominant one and adjust the material around it. Bioware does not do this and as a result its writting fluctuates wildly berween serious high-fantasy and awkward comedy.

Spoiler

Bonus points for the lines from Code Vein

 

[lukaszek]

perhaps difference is derived from show, dont tell approach vs DM-like story telling.

The moment you put power in letters appearing on the screen you decide to hire a group of writers and lock them in some room. Game is done, letters are pasted on top of it.
Game development is taking a bit longer and writers are bored? Have them write some colorful descriptions.

Over explaining is annoying trend. Take for example start of skyrim, one of first words you are going to hear: 'You are Jarl Ulfric, the leader of rebelion'. You would be able to piece it together soon enough but no - everything needs to be spelled out

Not really part of topic but shooters in general do better job with music plane. If I were to blame something, it would be sandboxing? You end up with music pieces that can fit many, potentially generic, situations and end result is quite bland.
Meanwhile take doom ethernal - it elevates your experience to new level. Best part is I tried to listen to soundtrack on its own and I didnt enjoy it that much. But damn it works so well in action.
In bg2 it worked, or maybe im biased because I just like music there on its own too much. cdpr is actually doing good work in this department.

 

[JarlFrank]

You can absolutely make an RPG that is of a singular theme and atmosphere while still being as varied as other RPGs.

Ultima Underworld has dialogues and quests and exploration, but it sticks to its central theme of being stuck in a prison dungeon and having to make your way down through ever-more dangerous areas without introducing anything that kills the mood.
Same with Arx Fatalis.
Morrowind, despite its size and massive amount of text, stays pretty true to its central theme and atmosphere throughout. There are one or two characters who serve as comic relief (Creeper, Crassius Curio) but overall the tone stays consistently serious and mysterious.
Fallout 1, apart from the random encounter easter eggs, also manages to stay thematically consistent throughout without any jarring "this is the horror quest" or "this is the funny quest" moments. Sadly, that consistency was lost in Fallout 2 and diluted even more in the Bethesda titles.

All you need to make a game with a consistent theme is the will to stay consistent, rather than falling to the temptation of trying to meet everyone's taste.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I never even heard of that Star Trek: Generations game so it's a genuine discovery. And it does look interesting, shades of Marathon and System Shock...

It's really interesting seeing people's reactions to Generations. Only now with more knowledge of games, do I realize that it was very unusual, having an inventory, star travel, etc, in 1997. In the 1990s fandom got games that actually improved on the TV material, justifying and expanding it. I made a post about how to get it running here.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The boomer fps has an element that lack in modern fps: exploration. This is also the reason why it feels more RPG than modern RPG, where exploration is often formulaic and without a game mechanics to support it.

 

[Ulysa]

Because I was a retard all my life I kept away from shooters until recently, probably cause I was sure I couldn't beat them and I thought they were only pew pew and a boys thing. Only in recent years I played things like Portal, Deus Ex, Thief and Doom. I still have many to play but ffs what an idiot I was, these are definitely among the best games ever made.
As mentioned in this thread, the lack of narration leaves place for a more natural way of figuring out things, involving imagination and deduction, which is immersive, because is how the brain works in the real world. It also leaves some room to interpretation, which makes the game more 'yours'.

 

[Curratum]

One of those semi-old FPSes dripping with atmosphere is that Wheel of Time one. Now that was something. It's too bad it's not for sale anywhere.

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-wheel-of-time-dic

Come back here and provide support for this now! If I choose Direct3D, I don't have mouselook and my keyboard controls don't work, all I can do is shoot with left mouse.

If I choose software renderer, the game is playable but pretty hideous.

I tried installing new render DLLs but the game won't pick them up and let me choose them to be used.

Help?

 

[schru]

One of those semi-old FPSes dripping with atmosphere is that Wheel of Time one. Now that was something. It's too bad it's not for sale anywhere.

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-wheel-of-time-dic

Come back here and provide support for this now! If I choose Direct3D, I don't have mouselook and my keyboard controls don't work, all I can do is shoot with left mouse.

If I choose software renderer, the game is playable but pretty hideous.

I tried installing new render DLLs but the game won't pick them up and let me choose them to be used.

Help?

Try it with dgVoodoo with the Direct3D or Glide renderer, the latter was probably the preferred one at the time of the release. You can also disable the forced 32-bit mode in dgVoodoo's CFG file and play in 16-bit with dithering. Unreal Engine games have additional options for their renderers if you type preferences in the console. Disabling multitextures is important in Unreal to make it look right, but that might not be the case in later games. Also, renderers can be set manually in the game's CFG file in the System folder once they're included as a section in that file below the general settings, where you can also find their names.

 

[Curratum]

One of those semi-old FPSes dripping with atmosphere is that Wheel of Time one. Now that was something. It's too bad it's not for sale anywhere.

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/the-wheel-of-time-dic

Come back here and provide support for this now! If I choose Direct3D, I don't have mouselook and my keyboard controls don't work, all I can do is shoot with left mouse.

If I choose software renderer, the game is playable but pretty hideous.

I tried installing new render DLLs but the game won't pick them up and let me choose them to be used.

Help?

Try it with dgVoodoo with the Direct3D or Glide renderer, the latter was probably the preferred one at the time of the release. You can also disable the forced 32-bit mode in dgVoodoo's CFG file and play in 16-bit with dithering. Unreal Engine games have additional options for their renderers if you type preferences in the console. Disabling multitextures is important in Unreal to make it look right, but that might not be the case in later games. Also, renderers can be set manually in the game's CFG file in the System folder once they're included as a section in that file below the general settings, where you can also find their names.

Whoo, thanks a bunch, man, that did the trick!

I had never used dgVoodoo before, but now I just dumped the DX 11 DLLs in there, set the dgVoodoo app to emulate / use DX11 and the game runs fine now!

For some reason, it won't let me select 1920 x 1080 in the settings, just 1400 x 900 but that's actually better because when I tested the game in software render at 1080p, the font, crosshair and onscreen elements were all TINY and painful to read and they're kinda ok at 900p.

 

[schru]

Whoo, thanks a bunch, man, that did the trick!

I had never used dgVoodoo before, but now I just dumped the DX 11 DLLs in there, set the dgVoodoo app to emulate / use DX11 and the game runs fine now!

For some reason, it won't let me select 1920 x 1080 in the settings, just 1400 x 900 but that's actually better because when I tested the game in software render at 1080p, the font, crosshair and onscreen elements were all TINY and painful to read and they're kinda ok at 900p.

In dgVoodoo set the forced resolution in the appropriate renderer's tab to your monitor's native one and change the in-game one to 640x480, 800x600, or an analogous wide-screen variant if that's what you prefer (though it may stretch some things or make cutscenes look wrong). It's also better to set an appropriate scaling mode in the general tab. Some games have problems with this, but Unreal works fine. What it will do is render the 3-D graphics at the resolution chosen in dgVoodoo, while the UI and such will be scaled to maintain their size from the lower resolutions, which I suppose were the intended way to play originally.

 

[Curratum]

Would that I could. After the game ran fine, it started crashing randomly before even the menu. I never changed anything from the point when it ran fine.

Honestly, fuck trying to play old games. I don't have the patience for this anymore. Maybe I'll try the software renderer again, at least that worked.