Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Ulfhednar]

Not going in at lvl 6-7 is robbing yourself of some of the best cRPG content out there, so do yourself a favor and go in early ;d Such a tragedy, though, I wish PoE as a whole was as good as WM1.

My point is that it's not exactly early game content as such, it's just that you are able to access it early if you metagame. It's also memorable for other reasons than just its difficulty.

 

[Lacrymas]

How is going at lvl 6-7 metagaming? Obsidian themselves have said lvl 7 is the intended level to start WM1 content.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Is there a game that has solved the "pre-buff problem" in a good way ? The buff orgies in the infinity engine games, especially in the later parts of BG2, are bothersome and get old quickly but I didn't like the way PoE handled it either. I don't think there was any reason given within the games logic why we can't cast buffs outside of combat so it does stand out as purely gamey mechanic to prevent pre-buffs. It also didn't remove "degenerate" gameplay completely, since there were still some buffs that I casted always at the beginning of combat, pretty much every time. It begs the questions if it was just a failure of fine tuning opportunity cost vs buffs or if a different approach should be taken.

King of Dragon Pass.

Great game but I don't see how the blessings/rituals help with buff mechanics in games like PoE.

PoE handled it fine. It doesn't matter that it's gamey when it works. Buffs that are so good you cast them automatically at combat start should be removed, though, imo.

I think you know the game better than me but Devotions of the Faithful seemed like a no brainer. Likewise the priest spells that added to defense in a large are of effect. I may be mixing up Poe 1/2 but I think fighters also had some instant buffs that I would always activate at the beginning of each fight. But its true that mages were improved in that regard.

 

[Butter]

Great game but I don't see how the blessings/rituals help with buff mechanics in games like PoE.

Pillars of Eternity deities are very hands-on. I would've given the player the ability, outside of combat, to select one of 12 (or however many gods there are) themed blessings. Alternatively this selection could be done while resting. The blessings would affect the entire party and you'd only get one at a time, but they'd be significant enough to be worth 2-3 regular buffs. This avoids the tedium of casting a bunch of spells before each fight and even creates a better connection between gameplay and narrative. That's what makes it great in KoDP.

 

[dacencora]

I LIKE PILLARS OF ETERNITY'S STORY!

OD NUA WAS FUN AND IT WAS A TAD BIT LONG, BUT THE BLOOD PIT THING WAS COOL!

I ALSO LIKE IMAGINE DRAGONS AND ANIME!

 

[Lacrymas]

I think you know the game better than me but Devotions of the Faithful seemed like a no brainer. Likewise the priest spells that added to defense in a large are of effect. I may be mixing up Poe 1/2 but I think fighters also had some instant buffs that I would always activate at the beginning of each fight. But its true that mages were improved in that regard.

Priests in general are crazy in PoE1, so almost everything they bring to the table is insta-cast. That's why they are toned down in Deadfire. А bit too much maybe, I'm still salty about what they did to my beloved Skaen Priest.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Great game but I don't see how the blessings/rituals help with buff mechanics in games like PoE.

Pillars of Eternity deities are very hands-on. I would've given the player the ability, outside of combat, to select one of 12 (or however many gods there are) themed blessings. Alternatively this selection could be done while resting. The blessings would affect the entire party and you'd only get one at a time, but they'd be significant enough to be worth 2-3 regular buffs. This avoids the tedium of casting a bunch of spells before each fight and even creates a better connection between gameplay and narrative. That's what makes it great in KoDP.

Sounds reasonable and has the benefit that it would also increase the importance of resting and managing camping supplies, although it is at its core the same as the food mechanic that we already have in place.

 

[Ulfhednar]

How is going at lvl 6-7 metagaming? Obsidian themselves have said lvl 7 is the intended level to start WM1 content.

Just in the sense that you have to know the steps to get there at that level range or you will come in higher. There are a lot of rabbit trails after Caed Nua, and Obsidian also asks players if they want to scale content based on their level at the start of WM. Anyway, it seems that we're at a difference in definition if you consider WM1 to be early game.

 

[Ninjerk]

There is something oddly satisfying about using an invisibility spell to scout out future encounters more-or-less free of danger and especially satisfying in the superiority of invisibility+trap disarming over stealth (which breaks)+trap disarming. The player feels clever for having recognized and taken adavntage of the difference. (apologies if I'm not clear, I'm quite drunk atm).

Making the player feel clever because they discovered something vs being handed it is something that is completely lost in modern cRPGs.
Compare how skills are used in Fallout to Fallout clones. In Fallout, you use the skill on objects in the world. In the clones, you just "talk" to the object(only the ones you can use a skill on are able to be "talked" to) and either automatically use the correct skill or select a dialogue option to do so.
Narrowing magic and reducing the ways it can be used to interact with the world is just a natural extension of this, makes the game easier for developers/designers but shit for players.

It kind of goes back to the argument Warren Spector used to have about putting hidden paths and other content that maybe 10% of the player base would see.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Breaking news, at least news for me: Jason Seow 's hosting has expired: https://www.jasonseow.com/#/poeportraits/ . His PoE portraits in high quality are now only to be found around the internet. Small versions are still visible on his artstation account: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/OGEd8

 

[Ninjerk]

Breaking news, at least news for me: Jason Seow 's hosting has expired: https://www.jasonseow.com/#/poeportraits/ . His PoE portraits in high quality are now only to be found around the internet. Small versions are still visible on his artstation account: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/OGEd8

Pretty sure that's Jaceface

 

[TedNugent]

How good is the White March DLC

One of the best RPG expansions ever made. Superior to the main game in every single way.

What exactly does White March do better than the main game, in your opinion?

Is there a game that has solved the "pre-buff problem" in a good way ? The buff orgies in the infinity engine games, especially in the later parts of BG2, are bothersome and get old quickly but I didn't like the way PoE handled it either. I don't think there was any reason given within the games logic why we can't cast buffs outside of combat so it does stand out as purely gamey mechanic to prevent pre-buffs. It also didn't remove "degenerate" gameplay completely, since there were still some buffs that I casted always at the beginning of combat, pretty much every time. It begs the questions if it was just a failure of fine tuning opportunity cost vs buffs or if a different approach should be taken.

I think the way to do it is to make those powerful stat modifiers for combat, combat only, which makes sense - otherwise, it encourages a tedious and time consuming process of pre-buffing. Then, allow spells that make sense, things that are contextual or modify non-combat abilities, usable as a free cast. Obviously, this also makes sense for healing abilities, invisibility, casts that initiate combat, etc.

Think about it - if you have 10 different spells that cast partywide buffs, which are already powerful in and of themselves, it would behoove you to sit there and precast before every major encounter. That's not particularly good gameplay because it's simply tedious and asinine. I appreciate there being an opportunity cost to cast them, same as damaging spells.

Then again, you could significantly pare them down in number, or better yet, create a similar system as the "suppression" on armor enchantments cancelling each other out, so that you can only have one buff, or one-non-combat buff active at any given time before combat. That would mean you wouldn't have to sling 4-5 spells before every major encounter, instead maybe one that suited that particular encounter best.

 

[Haplo]

One of the best RPG expansions ever made. Superior to the main game in every single way.

What exactly does White March do better than the main game, in your opinion?

A huge quality difference in area design, encounter design and itemization.
Also the self contained story of WM1+2 is rather cool.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What exactly does White March do better than the main game, in your opinion?

snow

 

[Grunker]

How good is the White March DLC

One of the best RPG expansions ever made. Superior to the main game in every single way.

What exactly does White March do better than the main game, in your opinion?

Everything. There's a detailed rundown in my review if your curiosity is honest.

 

[AwesomeButton]

My detailed reviews on Metacritic:
WM1:

Spoiler

Summary: The White March is worth buying. Expect tougher, more varied encounters with better enemy positioning and AI that makes use of its abilities and switches targets in during battle, more imaginative and intricate dungeon areas, a more lively and convincing base settlement (the village of Stalwart), and two new companions, which I utterly disliked, but that's just me. Both the new areas and new enemies clearly benefit from the experience the PoE team at Obsidian has amassed while working on the base game.

First off, I should say that I was on the whole disappointed by Pillars of Eternity, whenever I've considered its 26 March 2015 release build as the complete game, which I am now convinced it was not meant to be. Patch 2.0 which comes at the same date as The White March, but for free of course, makes some much-needed improvements to enemy and party AI, the user interface, and Class and Base Attributes balance.

The "2.0" version of PoE contains one major change to base attributes and that is the changing of the Perception bonus from boosting Deflection to boosting Accuracy. While I believe this to be a needed step in the right direction, I think it's too little to make a difference for me.

The addition of enemies with immunities to certain damage types and afflictions will force the player to adapt weapons and tactics to the particular encounter, something which was rarely needed in the base Pillars of Eternity.

I started the expansion on Hard difficulty and Expert mode, with a level 9 party. I found it a nice surprise that Eder no longer felt invincible during combat, and that enemies would go for my weaker characters. Although I haven't felt a need to change the party's equipped items, or respec my character to reflect changes to the attribute system or AI, my impression is that combat difficulty has received a much needed boost.

I think the encounter design and difficulty deserve a few words of commendation. I've had my party wiped out multiple times by the same encounter, which hasn't happened to me in the base game, save for just a few fights, and I consider this to be good progress in the right direction. In the base game it felt as if the designers were too shy to make encounters hard. I was practically glad when my party got wiped out in the last battle in Stalwart Village - I had made it a house rule that I won't rest spam through the saving of the village.

It's no longer the same boring battle over and over, so there is improvement, thanks to the upgraded enemy AI and the addition of programmable behavior for party NPCs.

As a side effect of the change to the Perception bonus, your party's tanks are now more vulnerable. What this translates to, especially in combination with an updated AI which tends to disengage and pursue targets in your back lines, is that you actually need to manage your party's movement... somewhat. The amount of party micro needed is still far from the BG/IWD levels, but I'm happy with what little has been achieved. This comes in addition to the nerfing of the fighter "Wary Defender" talent.

Encounters seem more "hand-made" and less often look copy-pasted compared to those in the base game. I've been tracking this carefully as I played, and I can say there were enough (although not each and all) combat encounters where the following factors were present, which gave them character:
1. There was context to the creatures' group as it was composed - for example, a group of ogres gathered around the dead bodies of Lagufaeth.
2. There was conversation, either between the enemies, or between my party and the enemies.
3. The encounter was placed on terrain which offered some kind of tactical opportunities for both sides - a narrow pass, obstacles on the terrain which provided choke points or kept a character's back safe, a staircase with multiple turns which disallowed the party from deploying in an optimal combat order, etc.

In general, I could tell these were things that had been tested in advance, and encounters weren't just arbitrarily placed on flat ground. I welcome this effort on the developers' part.

As for the areas - the developers have kicked into full gear, and the areas are both bigger - on par with the IE games, and just as beautiful, or more so than, in the base game, with multiple entry points and hence multiple paths through dungeons, and varied combat environments which in the odd lucky case necessitate some tactical thought on the player's part. I'd even go far enough to claim that in most TWM dungeons the dungeon design is superior to what's usually seen throughout the IE games.

Unfortunately, the old tactic of blocking doorways with your tank is still easy to pull of in some areas, especially in Durgan's Battery.

Overall, I'd say the expansion is worth it, both in terms of size and in terms of improvements to gameplay

WM2:

Spoiler

Worth your money a couple of times over, and at least as many playthroughs, TWM2 is a vast improvement in quality to the base game, in every aspect. I even enjoyed it more than TWM which was already very, very good.

One way you can tell you are playing a quality game is when you see the developers being "generous" with content - giving you custom-made mechanics and content to play around with, which can't be easily reused somewhere else. In my book, this is always a good sign for the attention to detail and the resources a development team was able to spare.

The most prominent example of this is how, early in TWM2, depending on the way you handle a certain quest, you may get the ability to call long-range artillery on targets, and potentially make your life easier later on. I think it was great how this was woven into the main quest and the ability was not simply thrown at the player with some "magic" explanation, but also the fact that it was optional.

Another improvement in TWM2 is the increased amount of meaningful reactivity, which provides a lot of opportunities for role-playing, for playing out both minor and major quests differently, and adds replay value. Even quests that are part of the main TWM2 story can be solved in radically different ways, depending on player choice. This is a huge thing for me, as influencing the main plot is something rarely seen in RPGs in general, so I really appreciated being given multiple approaches to solving problems which affected the story, even if just on the TWM2 level.

And it's not just the main quest either - the player can influence the outcome and resolution of smaller quests - what's the future of Stalwart's economy going to be, it's trade relationship with Defiance Bay, the fate of a miner accused of murder, there are too many such things to list everything.

If reactivity is one thing that stands out when describing TWM2, I think "variance" and "hand-crafted" are the other major descriptors. On every level, the game left me with the feeling I'm playing the kind of hand-crafted adventure, which I hoped PoE would have been at release. Nothing feels arbitrary, nothing feels like "filler". There is meaning to pretty much every combat encounter, and you can see someone made a deliberate decision how many enemies to put there, what type, what class, etc.

Talking about "hand-crafted", the number of scripted interactions, and their complexity have both been increased, and they feel better than ever. The designers seem to have sensed one of the complaints I personally had regarding scripted encounters, and the text now gives the player hints of what skill/attribute will be tested before he or she has to choose a character to preform an action.

The same feeling of increased developer attention to detail that is evident in the quest and encounter design, is prevalent in the area design as well. I found it a nice change that, in contrast to the base game, it was fairly difficult to predict the layout of any area without actually exploring it - designing more unpredictable areas is a lesson that the PoE team has apparently mastered by now, and to see what I mean it's enough to compare any of the new dungeons to something seen in the base game, like the temple of Eothas or the Sanitarium for example. And once again - area design keeps offering the player multiple approaches towards the quest objective, and this principle meshes perfectly with the overall increase in interactivity to quests and main plot.

The final thing that left me positively impressed, and which totally won me over, was the plot and story, which makes sense because you can't experience them fully before you complete the expansion. Even early in TWM2 I spotted what I thought were improvements to the quality of writing, small things like for example a letter the player could find amid an enemy camp, which gives details on the everyday life and concerns of characters and provokes the player to see the other side as more than just "enemies".

TWM2's plot presents a healthy chunk of lore to the player, but in total contrast to the loredumps of the base game, this time new information is presented much more subtly, much more painless and through varied ("variance" again) channels - dialogue, reading of journals/notes, overheard dialogues between other characters, and even some riddle solving. The plot managed to surprise me, which felt great, and for a player invested in the setting of PoE and the history of its world, touched on questions which will feel larger than the plot and the game itself. And again, it offered interactivity and consequences up to the very end.

I guess that if you've gone far enough in PoE and TWM to consider buying TWM2, you are already at least ok with PoE's gameplay, and want to know if TWM2 is worth it. My conclusion is that TWM2 offers the best parts of PoE content and will easily exceed your expectations

 

[Grunker]

it's in my sig TedNugent

 

[mediocrepoet]

It seems like some of you guys know the expansions fairly well. I'm still meandering through the beginning of the game and getting ready to head to WM probably soon after the prompt unlocks to allow me to head up there. Out of curiosity, what's the level suggestion for starting part 2? So WM1 suggestion is around level 7, but once you're done with it it punts you back to the OC, right?

I'm trying to actually see the campaign through again to have a definitive/completionist import into Deadfire to tool around with that more unless WM knocks my socks off and makes me want to run through it a few times.

 

[AwesomeButton]

If you are playing on PotD, you may feel a little light being there as early as level 7. Just to keep it in mind, maybe you will be fine. And WM2 you can start directly after WM1.

 

[mediocrepoet]

If you are playing on PotD, you may feel a little light being there as early as level 7. Just to keep it in mind, maybe you will be fine. And WM2 you can start directly after WM1.

All POTD all the time.
Other than that, I'm trying to play a bit differently than I used to to see if it helps make things more interesting.

 

[TedNugent]

So, here is my review upon finishing the game.

I enjoyed the game, and I played it on hard mode with high level mode engaged in Act 2, 3 and WM. I am currently playing PoE2 Deadfire on PotD difficulty without level scaling.

A few bullets:

• The game looks painterly and attractive. I particularly enjoyed the dungeon maps and environmental effects like running water and animated machinery. River streams and grass textures are particularly pleasant. The fantasy elements like ruins have atmospheric set pieces that are well animated.
  • If you don't want to play the game, at least treat yourself to screenshots of maps like Raedric's Hold, First Fires and Copperlane. Castles and medieval cityscapes are look interesting and inviting.
    
  • Model animations are the only noticeable weakpoint on the visuals.
  • For a 7 year old game, it holds up and scales well. The engine runs well on potato like a Surface tablet. Pre-rendered graphics are nice because they are lightweight on system resources and age well.
• Game length clocked in around 200 hours with both expansions and a very thorough playthrough. It didn't overstay its welcome. I felt a legitimate desire to play.
• Dungeons, quests, environments, traps, and all items are hand-placed by level designers. In my opinion, this is one of the best parts about this game. Several high profile dungeons, such as Raedric's Hold, provide multiple routes into and through the dungeon, with multiple options on how to resolve the quest(s). Even Od Nua has several optional resolutions at multiple levels.
  • If nothing else, the breadth of hand-placed content is what makes this game worth playing. Every single space in the game was designed, created, animated, and populated with enemies and hand placed loot and secrets, in every single floor of every dungeon. Given this is a dying art in the age of randomly generated environments and dungeons, it has to be appreciated (so long as it's competent, and most of it is). With handsome dungeons like Raedric's Hold and Durgan's Battery, it made dungeon crawling quite an enjoyable experience for me.
• The lore presentation is mostly agonizing in the base game, with constant repetitions. Skip all lore books. One exception is the last journal entry of Jonas. You are given literally dozens of opportunities for in-game explanations for key events, to the point where they overstay their welcome. After the third time hearing about the Saint's War, I fucking get it.
  • The primary point of engaging with "What is Waidwen's Legacy" questions is not so much to read into what it is, since you know within 5 minutes of walking into Gilded Vale, the point is so that you can understand "What is Waidwen's Legacy to you." The lore serves only as a backdrop for the human interactions, and what drives prejudice, empathy, fear, and violence.
• I liked the combat system's overall design and feel, with substantial exceptions. This felt like an Infinity Engine game based on D&D, while having significant changes to the core attribute and combat mechanics, in a way that I felt was marginally superior. Details below in long form.
• The skill system was a particular weakness.
  • There are only 4 categories to choose from, and they pale in comparison to the breadth of the spell and talent system.
  • Furthermore, mechanics is both necessary and a catch-all and at least one toon must be pumped to 12+ in mechanics before end-game for both trap detection, detection of hidden items/levers and locksmithing. It was a bizarre oversight that the perception stat is utterly irrelevant for both trap detection and detection of hidden items, which was corrected in PoE2.
  • The other three skills seem mostly unnecessary. I primarily ended up dumping everything else into Athletics for passing skill checks, with 1 point in survival for the damage reduction. YMMV with stealth builds; I personally barely used it except for one toon on a couple of semi-scripted sneaking encounters.
• Companion quests exist and provide somewhat adequate interaction when they aren't serving as lore dumps. Aloth stinks of Bioware. Zahua's introduction reeked of Bioware, but his quest went in an interesting direction. Durance and ironically Eder, who was the most bland of the bunch, were standout companions and probably will be a standard part of most playthroughs. Durance has interesting interactions and Eder is almost completely likeable, if a boring standby. Kana Rua was a pleasant surprise and always nice to have around for his commentary. Devil of Caroc will be another favorite for most.
• Stats choices seem mostly irrelevant to your roleplaying experience, providing subtle interactions with scripted encounters and encounters and slight alignment shifts in your combat builds.
  • For the most part, combat is determined by gear and both pre- and combat-buffs. It is not difficult to have +6 or more to might or intellect by act 3, etc and it is trivial to change PC core stats as you can do so in a tavern at any time for an unimportant fee.
• C&C is definitely present, and can impact character stats, reputations, future quest outcomes, and even provide marginal changes to PoE2 if importing your save. However, although the C&C has real consequences within quests, it is rarely significant in the overall course of the game.
  • Be warned, there are two decisions that literally give you a bonus to stats (that carries into PoE2) in exchange for cruel reputation. This really rubbed me the wrong way.
  • A lot of the C&C is fundamentally inconsequential to the broader narrative stretch. An example, there is a high profile incident in a major city where you have the opportunity to argue your case on a controversial subject. Regardless of your choices and how you choose to address it, the outcome is the same, except that some NPC's perception of you will change in an inconsequential way.
  • Faction choices are also relatively inconsequential, providing at most a half dozen dialogue checks for outcome bonuses.
  • C&C and faction choices are primarily tied to quest rewards. This means that metagamers will feel obligated to "shop" for the quest reward that best suits them rather than the choice that makes the most sense from a roleplaying or flavor standpoint. Roleplayers may find this annoying. You will most likely incline your head towards +1 might on your fighter instead of getting +1 intellect, even if you dislike the choice that leads to getting +1 might. Unfortunately, that's seriously about the kind of choice the game gives you at several points.
• Caed Nua castle management metagame is time and attention consuming, but provides the benefit of giving your character a home, a contextual identity, and a sense of satisfaction. I would have like to have seen it cut or significantly pared down.
  • I strongly suspect that Caed Nua is the point where most players stopped playing the game. In previous playthroughs (I was a Kickstarter funder), I ended up getting burned out before Act 2 due to Caed Nua's detailed initial castle management interface and large cost. I realized while browsing the interface that, well, this was going to be a large undertaking. For this reason, I do think castle management should have been significantly pared down.
• Character pathing is ghastly. Unfortunately, characters frequently run into walls and doodads and often fail to engage in combat without repeated clicks, needing to be guided around an enemy to the wide open area on their flank before they will begin melee attacking. It is also a not infrequent occurrence that characters will pace repeatedly back and forth when given a movement command they are unable to negotiate with the environment. This also makes management of dungeon traps frustrating, as bypassing them is quite a chore. The perplexing lack of a "Hold position" command makes this more frustrating.
• White March level caps break the difficulty scaling, and high level mode doesn't resolve the issue. For whatever reason, high level mode, an obvious tuning tool for addressing the copious experience flood in late game, does not address this. Perhaps it was a mistake not making White March a true end-game expansion pack. Suffice to say, it makes much of Act 3 trivial - or, if you walk into White March at level 13+, prepare for it to be a cakewalk. Proper level caps and level tuning would have made PotD unnecessary. There is no good reason that high level mode couldn't let you have your cake and eat it too, in this regard. It simply isn't tuned properly.
• The attribute (suppression) system makes sense, and is good fundamental game design, but also makes inventory and paperdoll management somewhat exhausting. The UI could use substantial improvement in this regard. It is rather obnoxious having to double check how +2 dexterity impacts the delicate balance of stat modifiers on your gear just to avoid the dreaded suppression mechanic. I suspect casual players barely even noticed this system existed due to how poorly it is presented.
• The reputation system is better than a blanket alignment system. The system feels more authentic, scoring the number of responses or actions you take that nudge an alignment in a particular direction. Although there are definite checks based on your reputation throughout the game, few have significant consequences, but it feels more freeing and open ended than a traditional "lawful-good" alignment matrix, allowing you the flexibility to mix and match and still leave a (marginally visible) imprint on your world.

A few notes about the story.

The story has a more interesting hook than I think many give it credit for. I doubt many people were turned off at the introduction, or the first moment you walk into Gilded Vale. What it devolves into is arguably something else, but it makes an interesting romp into the deep lore behind the pantheon. What is of overwhelmingly more value, in my opinion, is a longform discussion on human nature. This game takes a deep interest in what makes a community tick, and what societal influences and belief structures do to an individual's behavior. Without having an overt, dry, philosophical discussion, Pillars legitimately examines, in the context of a reputation-driven C&C CRPG, how communities interact with overt terror and catastrophic loss, and powers beyond their control or overt understanding. It addresses the overt manipulation of their belief systems and the proper way to structure a society through concrete examples.

One of my favorite examples was a character that has a deep grudge against a man who found himself swept up in a retaliatory raid, confused as to why he found himself there even after being driven by an overt feeling of righteous indignation. Through the Watcher's visions, you are able to sense his momentary hesitation as he contemplates the murder of children and other innocents after wondering how he ended up leaving his own warm bed, wife and daughter at home, and what ultimately drives him engage in the frenzied slaughter. For a moment, the player is able to contemplate the price of justice, and the fatherless child and husbandless wife that will result from giving the man the end he by all rights deserves.

I also appreciate how in Defiance Bay, each of the three factions have clear and positive motivating factors that can evoke a misplaced empathetic response, while having a clear dangerous aspect that makes you reconsider the alternatives. It is a shame it ultimately reduces down to shopping for a combat talent-token that best suits your character build.

I want to address combat in longform.

First, the attribute system. Most of the attributes are fundamentally well-engineered. I appreciate the fact that the attributes in the current patch are clear cut, well explained and universal. Might increases your damage and healing by 3% and 2 fortitude defense per point. I have said previously that I think the attribute system is a very strong core, as there are two attributes each for each defensive stat. Each defensive stat is also relevant, and not just in theory. Each stat is actually relevant in-game, with willpower, fortitude, and reflex all being frequent checks, making them nearly as important as deflection despite superior scaling.

One thing I like about the attribute system is that it avoids a problem in D&D that I think was tripped over in 5.0 - should dexterity increase ranged damage, in addition to accuracy, and armor class bonus? It also avoids the unnecessary complication of max AC dex bonus. The core attributes are readable, and more or less universal.

I also appreciate the core engagement mechanic, which is a graceful means of providing a soft penalty with disengagement attacks of opportunity, and completely obviating threat in exchange for enemies automatically focusing squishies, which is a nice change from MMO-style holy trinity tripe. It also provides ample justification to focus on the engagement mechanic, positioning, and not neglecting the defensive stats of your wizards and priests despite the onerous recovery-time penalties of armor.

I also find the accuracy-deflection mechanic interesting. Unlike D&D, which uses a tabletop-friendly D20 for these kinds of DC rolls, and therefore more clear breakpoints for DC/AC, the designers decided to leverage a more granular and CRPG-friendly D100 additive roll to offset the base arithmetic and provide less deterministic outcomes. The >0 miss, 0-50 graze, and 50-100 hit system provides an appreciable outcome system that both gives players ample control over build solutions on defensive and offensive stats, but also gives them freedom in where they land on that continuum. This is, in my opinion, superior to the purely additive AC system, which has painful breakoffs and has to implement hard stacking limits while allowing you to bypass those limits through the use of modifiers from different sources.

Regarding crits, I think this provides some interesting incentive to scrounge up some accuracy points using the accuracy enchantment and stacking perception modifiers. However, it also means, unlike D&D where a natural 20 is always a crit, you can actually be unable to crit if the enemy base deflection exceeds your own accuracy. One interaction I don't like for this reason is the PotD modifier of +15 accuracy/+15 deflection. It fucks with a very delicate system. It is, in my opinion, the wrong way to increase difficulty.

The talent system, in my estimation, is by far the most significant system in terms of shaping and manipulating your character build. The attribute system ultimately becomes something of window dressing by comparison.

Similarly, the leveling system, which gives +3 accuracy and all defenses per level, bothers me. While base stats cannot be modified after level 1 outside of gear and other prebuffing systems, you automatically gain accuracy and defense with every level. So, while your damage stays the same (meaning it interacts poorly with armor damage reduction, which is additive) outside of percentage based enchantments, your accuracy and corresponding defense increases every level. I would like to see a second look at this. Wizards, Cyphers, and Priests gain power every level through higher level spells and a commensurate increase in accuracy. But physical combat power stays the same unless modified by a limited selection of talents and core abilities, and perhaps even degrades as the additive armor DR outpaces the multiplicative damage enchantments.

The real challenge is when you actually embed this in the damage reduction and enchantment system.
For example, if you do 10 base damage, and have 20 might, you have a +30% modifier, which means you do 13 damage. This is still fundamentally shit compared to plate armor, which has 12 base damage reduction, meaning you would do a whopping 1 damage. With 20 might. Fortunately, real damage values are better tuned than this, but we're still talking 3-7 damage per hit on one handers versus things like dragons and fine/exceptional plate armor.

The scaling on damage being percentage based, versus damage reduction which is additive and therefore has increasing returns, means that you will often have the experience of having 5 party members wailing into a basic NPC with a set of fine plate, doing 2 damage each.

Meanwhile it also presents the curious case where, for example, an ogre, or a more extreme example, a dragon, will cut through your plate armor as though it wasn't even there. I do kind of like this, as it presents a strategic case for leaving the plate armor at home when dragon hunting, and focus on attack speed/DPS, since their claws will reasonably go through your breastplate like a can opener anyway.

While the above is questionable, it also creates interesting interactions with weapon types and gives an intriguing niche to weapons with high base damage and low reload speeds, such as arquebuses and arbalests, and two handers versus one handers. Obviously, the same fact applies for high damage single target spells, giving them a clear purpose as single target nukes for hard targets. I also appreciate how the damage reduction system has very soft breakpoints, so that although it scales poorly with higher damage reductions, it lands softly in the water. Especially since most armor types have soft weaknesses, which in my opinion is far superior to the rock-paper-scissors setup in PoE2. The breakpoints are far less hard.

As an aside, I deeply appreciate the intent and care that was placed in the core weapon and armor design. A great degree of thought was put into what weapon characteristics made sense, and as a fan of medieval weapons and armor, I was pleasantly surprised by how sensible much of the direction ultimately was, an unusual feature in this genre. I really appreciate the interaction between different attack and armor types.

Just a note I was musing on - I thought it was funny and a little anticlimactic how when in WM2 they introduced the cataclysmic new enemy type and then give you a weapon that randomly vaporizes them after a few swings.

Anyway, that's all for now. My wrist hurts.

 

[Grunker]

Just a tip: play with level scaling unless you want to pubstomp everything after level 10. You're probably gonna pubstomp it anyway - but at least some encounters will have a chance to pose a challenge if you have level scaling on.

Without level scaling you may as well play on story mode after a certain point.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The real challenge is when you actually embed this in the damage reduction and enchantment system.
For example, if you do 10 base damage, and have 20 might, you have a +30% modifier, which means you do 13 damage. This is still fundamentally shit compared to plate armor, which has 12 base damage reduction, meaning you would do a whopping 1 damage. With 20 might. Fortunately, real damage values are better tuned than this, but we're still talking 3-7 damage per hit on one handers versus things like dragons and fine/exceptional plate armor.

It can feel like that sometimes, but if you play around with different damage types (e.g. plate is weak to shock), armour piercing weapons and abilities, and other miscellanea like paralysis, you'll find that even high DR enemies can explode pretty quickly. The ones that are a pain in the ass are high DR, high defense, healing enemies like paladins. I usually just ignore them until I have enough breathing room to focus them then paralyze and kill them. That can still take them out pretty quickly, it's just irritating until you can focus them. But then, a super defensive, heavily armoured, holy magic character actually should be a pain to take out.

 

[AwesomeButton]

White March level caps break the difficulty scaling, and high level mode doesn't resolve the issue. For whatever reason, high level mode, an obvious tuning tool for addressing the copious experience flood in late game, does not address this. Perhaps it was a mistake not making White March a true end-game expansion pack. Suffice to say, it makes much of Act 3 trivial - or, if you walk into White March at level 13+, prepare for it to be a cakewalk. Proper level caps and level tuning would have made PotD unnecessary

I take it you are saying this after you chose to scale up the difficulty upon entering the White March? There is a prompt if you'd like encounters upscaled or no. I don't remember if it was chaning the numbers or their numbers and stats as well.

Just a tip: play with level scaling unless you want to pubstomp everything after level 10. You're probably gonna pubstomp it anyway - but at least some encounters will have a chance to pose a challenge if you have level scaling on.

Without level scaling you may as well play on story mode after a certain point.

I think there is some general confusion over enemy scaling in Deadfire. From looking into their ".gamedatabundle" (in fact .json) files I think the clearest description is:
- No scaling: simple as that
- Scale enemies: enemies scale at most two levels down, if you are underleveled, and at most four levels up, if you are overleveled.
- Scale only upwards: there is no scaling down, scaling up is as in the previous setting

Correct me if I'm wrong. Since I'm a completionist, I've always played with "scale only upwards", so as to keep it interesting for as long as possible.

 

[Lacrymas]

Deadfire should be played with only scaling up. The game is too freeform for no scaling at all.