Spiderweb Software Exile series thread

[newtmonkey]

I couldn't find a specific thread discussing Exile 1-3 only. I know there are several threads discussing the Avernum series, etc. but the original Exile games are different enough from Avernum (and the second remakes) to be worth discussing separately.

First of all, the original Exile trilogy won't run on a 64-bit Windows OS, but there are some workarounds:

1) Dosbox with a Win 3.11, etc. installation
2) Virtualbox/VMWare with Win 9X installed
3) Install ODVTM, which lets you install and run the Exile games "natively" in Win 10, etc.:
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/otvdm.html
4) Basilisk II emulator and use the Mac versions of the games.

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Exile: Escape from the Pit
I decided to create a party of two dedicated fighters (one with edged skill, the other with spear), a thief (with bow ability), a dedicated priest, and two dedicated mages. The game is a bit of a rough start, since you don't earn a lot of money from combat, but need to use money to buy equipment, food, and training, with equipment and training being pretty expensive.

Having said that, you can save anywhere and at any time to multiple files, so you'd never get yourself into an unwinnable state, unless you were playing on a single save file I guess. I decided to limit myself to one save file per area to avoid save scumming and maintain some difficulty.

I explored a good portion of one corner of the world (I guess), gathered information from three towns, and finished (I think) a couple of "dungeons." There's a lot of combat, but it goes by pretty quickly and I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as "trash combat" since even easy battles whittle away your hit points and spell points (you can't rest in dungeons, and enemies seem to respawn).

So far, I really like this game. The world is interesting, the writing is good, and the exploration is top notch.

 

[OSK]

If people aren't aware, these games are now freeware. You can download them directly from Vogel's site: https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/productsOld.html

Blades of Exile was open sourced: https://github.com/calref/cboe

If you're on Linux, just use Lutris to install and run these games. It's as easy as going to the link (https://lutris.net/games/exile-escape-from-the-pit/) and clicking install. The install script will download/install/configure everything for you.

but the original Exile games are different enough from Avernum (and the second remakes) to be worth discussing separately.

I just played through all 3 of the Avernum re-remakes back-to-back-to-back. Honestly, the biggest difference is the combat. It was heavily streamlined and is objectively worse. All the other changes are pretty minor so they're pretty much the same games outside of combat. I still had a blast playing through all of them.

 

[newtmonkey]

Exile
I'm a good ways into the game now, and I'm really enjoying it so far. The exploration is excellent, party-building/character development is great, and combat is good and sometimes great. The writing is just fine, though not quite to the level of, say, Ultima VI&VII—the dialog is okay, but some of the flavor text is written very well imo.

There is a lot of combat in the game, but so far it's a good mix of easier battles to sap your resources, and more difficult battles where you need to make good use of spells. The level 2/3 buffing/debuffing spells are very powerful, so it's worth building your spellcasters so that they have access to the first 3 levels of spells right from the start. You can really push your party into dangerous areas early on by casting Bless and Haste on your fighters during tough battles.

One thing I don't like is that there seems to be no way to scroll around the combat map to see enemy placement? I might have missed something though.

 

[Watser]

The Exile series is the next Vogel series I will delve into (played Geneforge 1-5, Nethergate, and the first Avadon), and then eventually wrap it up with the second Avernum trilogy.
Is Blades of Exile good?

 

[newtmonkey]

Watser
I haven't played Blades so can't say, sorry!

What did you think of Nethergate? I was originally deciding between that and Exile, as the concept of Nethergate seemed really interesting. Did you play the old or new version of Nethergate?

 

[NerevarineKing]

I played a decent amount of Exile 1 after beating Geneforge 1 (original) last year but never ended up finishing it. The exploration and combat were pretty fun, although I think I prefer Geneforge a bit more.

 

[Watser]

Watser
I haven't played Blades so can't say, sorry!

What did you think of Nethergate? I was originally deciding between that and Exile, as the concept of Nethergate seemed really interesting. Did you play the old or new version of Nethergate?

I played resurrection. From what I gather the two versions are very similar but the original require you to consume food. As a rule of thumb Vogel games becomes worse with each remake, but I know Fowyr swears by the original so he will probably be able to give you a more complete answer.

I had a blast with the game, ended up playing as celts because having access to magic is FUN.

 

[almondblight]

If anyone bounced off of Exile I, I highly recommend checking out Exille III (or Blades). There are a lot of quality of life improvements (such as an in game quest journal, or the ability to record things people tell you), and the game is much more fleshed out (more stories, quests, and random things to stumble on). It's impressive how much he improved things with each game.

Is Blades of Exile good?

It's the scenario maker for the Exile series (think NWN). It comes with three short-ish (maybe around 10 hours?) scenarios that Vogel created himself. I only played the first, Valley of the Dying Things, but remember it being pretty fun. The real appeal of the game is supposed to be the user created scenarios, though I never played any of them. Here's the list of the top rated ones on Spiderweb's site. There's another list for lower rated ones as well.

 

[Leonard]

I played resurrection. From what I gather the two versions are very similar but the original require you to consume food. As a rule of thumb Vogel games becomes worse with each remake, but I know Fowyr swears by the original so he will probably be able to give you a more complete answer.

I had a blast with the game, ended up playing as celts because having access to magic is FUN.

It's more than just food. Food is the most immediately noticeable, and its removal feels somewhat lazy, because many references to it weren't edited out. It also trivializes some decisions and encounters.

Nethergate:Resurrection utilizes the modified BoA engine, which is based on the A3 engine, both of which are really shit. The biggest change is how ridiculously increased the damage output of the melee characters is. Pre Avernum 3, your strong melee characters could do 20 damage and required buffs, potions, skills and good equipment to pass that significantly. In A3 and N:R your hitters will dish out close to a hundred of damage before reaching midgame. Enemies' HP have only been modestly adjusted and don't compensate for that. This diminishes the need for buffs, skills like berserk, woad and makes the really good equipment far less important - it's easy to reach damage cap without any of that. Sides were made more similar, Celts can use more armour, but the magic's been nerfed to compensate.

The newer engine also somehow feels poorer in features - the original supported keywords and conversations on the overworld screen, which are instead handled by events in N:R. Also blessing pools, which were a really cool feature, are just a small streamlined boost in the new one.

The other big change was that the original Nethergate was unique in Jeff Vogel's games in that it used a levelless system - instead you got a slow, but continuous drop of single skill points. It had issues, if you decided to abuse it, but it also felt fresh and interesting. Other Vogel's games of that time often feel like you're sprinting through levels 10-30, and after that your progression stalls. Even if you do get a level, it barely impacts your character anymore. The original Nethergate gave more of a feeling of constant progression.

N:R adds one extra big dungeon, but I didn't like it all that much.

This is more of a personal pet peeve, but I hate the N:R goblin/ogre/giant sprites and probably a bunch of different ones that I forgot, the original ones were more fitting.

The new one has better UI and is easier to play, and is overall a streamlined version of the original. As with other Spiderweb remakes, while they lost something through the process, they still remain good games and are worth playing. The biggest issue is getting a copy of the original game, which Vogel refuses to sell, while also claiming it's not abandonware.

 

[Fowyr]

The Exile series is the next Vogel series I will delve into (played Geneforge 1-5, Nethergate, and the first Avadon), and then eventually wrap it up with the second Avernum trilogy.
Is Blades of Exile good?

Blades of Exile are awesome, but, of course, it always depends on user scenarios. Check this thread.
rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/good-blades-of-exile-scenarios.9989/
About Nethergate:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/nethergate-or-nethergate-ressurection.126831/
I made a small list of changes in Nethergate's remake there.

EDIT:

The original Nethergate is better, Resurrection butchered mechanics a lot, some encounters now don't even have a sense. And added dungeon is craptastic. It's fucking rollercoaster (Romans to the left, Celts to the right! Five rooms onwards and your prize awaits you!)

Ressurection was avernumification of Nethergate. Game lost food, need to id, blessing pools, gain shitton of trainers, two dungeons - one is very dumb, lost magical lockpicks (maybe ALL lockpicks), bunch of skills, woad is useless etc.
Food was very important in some encounters and last area of the game.

He butchered blessing pools, one or two skills (potions available was calculated as function of herbology and alchemy or some shit), woad, food, items was avernumized (i.e. no more magic lockpicks) and so on. Several encounters what was centered around the food lost any sense.
You may play remake, it was not cardinally changed from original, but I liked original more.

 

[Jvegi]

I just played through all 3 of the Avernum re-remakes back-to-back-to-back. Honestly, the biggest difference is the combat. It was heavily streamlined and is objectively worse

You mean the Avernum streamlined the combat of Exile, or are you talking about the 2010's remakes?

I'd like to finally jump into those games, I've only played a bit with geneforge 1. I guess the safest bet, if I want to avoid playing the inferior version with ease of use features I'll miss later, is to play them in order of release.

 

[Watser]

The biggest issue is getting a copy of the original game, which Vogel refuses to sell, while also claiming it's not abandonware.

Very informative, thanks!
Yeah it seems the original Nethergate isn't available on his website, he only refers to Resurrection.
At least all the exiles are freeware: http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/productsOld.html

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Doesn't the version of Exile 1 (and maybe 2) up on Vogel's site not have the original graphics set, instead using the one from Exile 3? I remember someone around here bringing that up. Seems Vogel has a habit of removing old versions like that.
Mind you, at least with Nethergate you can find the original fairly easily.

 

[NerevarineKing]

I imagine Exile could be easily modded to replace the graphics.

 

[Fowyr]

Doesn't the version of Exile 1 (and maybe 2) not have the original graphics set, instead using the one from Exile 3? I remember someone around here bringing that up. Seems Vogel has a habit of removing old versions like that.

Yep. It was me.
You can find old BMPs here:
http://www.harehunter.info/downloads/V1_Graphics.zip
Just replace files in your E1.
I have old version of E1 somewhere downloaded from some site back in the day, but can't find it quickly.

Exile ©1995 by Jeff & Shirley Vogel

BTW, I've now found that Shirley Vogel mentioned in original E1 screen, was Vogel's ex-wife. She probably was tester or artist.
EDIT: Here you are
http://ironycentral.com/harehunter/downloads/EXILE1.Ver1.zip
EDIT2:
Found old version of Exile 2

 

[OSK]

I just played through all 3 of the Avernum re-remakes back-to-back-to-back. Honestly, the biggest difference is the combat. It was heavily streamlined and is objectively worse

You mean the Avernum streamlined the combat of Exile, or are you talking about the 2010's remakes?

Streamlined the combat of Exile. I never played the original Avernums.

 

[Modron]

The Exile series is the next Vogel series I will delve into (played Geneforge 1-5, Nethergate, and the first Avadon), and then eventually wrap it up with the second Avernum trilogy.
Is Blades of Exile good?

The Exiles were certainly better than the Avernums; they had more skills and spells, 6 characters instead of 4 and the top down perspective made exploration more interesting than the hunt for tiny switches gameplay of the remakes. Just keep a piece of paper handy to use as a quest journal.

Avadon 2 is actually worth playing in case you wrote the series off after playing the first one like most did around here (which wasn't a terribly unfair reaction to that big cup of bland). Third one is worth trying as well granted it's not quite as good as the second.

 

[Watser]

Avadon 2 is actually worth playing in case you wrote the series off after playing the first one like most did around here (which wasn't a terribly unfair reaction to that big cup of bland). Third one is worth trying as well granted it's not quite as good as the second.

Yeah I lost any and all motivation for Avadon due to the blandness of the setting and simplified mechanics.
I will remember this and give the series another try when the urge strikes me (after having completed the second Avernum trilogy probably). I don't see Vogel making anything new worth playing in the near future, or in any future at all tbh.

 

[OSK]

Avadon 2 is actually worth playing in case you wrote the series off after playing the first one like most did around here (which wasn't a terribly unfair reaction to that big cup of bland). Third one is worth trying as well granted it's not quite as good as the second.

Yeah I lost any and all motivation for Avadon due to the blandness of the setting and simplified mechanics.
I will remember this and give the series another try when the urge strikes me (after having completed the second Avernum trilogy probably). I don't see Vogel making anything new worth playing in the near future, or in any future at all tbh.

I'm pretty sure his plan is to re-make the rest of the Geneforge series and then retire. There might be a Queen's Wish 3 in there somewhere.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Avadon 2 is actually worth playing in case you wrote the series off after playing the first one like most did around here (which wasn't a terribly unfair reaction to that big cup of bland). Third one is worth trying as well granted it's not quite as good as the second.

Yeah I lost any and all motivation for Avadon due to the blandness of the setting and simplified mechanics.
I will remember this and give the series another try when the urge strikes me (after having completed the second Avernum trilogy probably). I don't see Vogel making anything new worth playing in the near future, or in any future at all tbh.

I'm pretty sure his plan is to re-make the rest of the Geneforge series and then retire. There might be a Queen's Wish 3 in there somewhere.

But will he remake Geneforge once or twice?

 

[NerevarineKing]

How did Mutagen compare to his other remakes?

 

[Jinn]

How did Mutagen compare to his other remakes?

Really good and an improvement on the original in almost every way. It might actually be his best remake.

 

[J1M]

I like Exile 3.

Game seemed massive. Dealt with underground problems and two major threats on the surface before hitting the end of the shareware demo.

Never got a hold of the complete game to finish it. Maybe I was worried the rest of it wouldn't be up to the same level of quality.

Didn't like the graphics of the remakes.

I wish some modern RPGs would adopt the conversation system he used for Exile.

 

[Digimon]

Just the other day I was searching for an 'unofficial' copy of the freeware version of the original Nethergate and after a bit of effort it seems I found a copy?

So.... For anyone who is interested, here is the link for it (there is also a crack for the remake version of the game, resurrection, bundled together with it):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/qpggw596c0rdya1/Nethergate.zip/file

EDIT: It seems to be clean enough but double check for viruses to be sure.

 

[Modron]

I like Exile 3.

Game seemed massive. Dealt with underground problems and two major threats on the surface before hitting the end of the shareware demo.

Never got a hold of the complete game to finish it. Maybe I was worried the rest of it wouldn't be up to the same level of quality.

Didn't like the graphics of the remakes.

I wish some modern RPGs would adopt the conversation system he used for Exile.

Exile 3 is his magnum opus, it's worth playing through to completion. One of the few games to have progressive damage done to the cities by enemies the longer you take to complete it.