Decline What is the single worst, most annoying design choice in a game?

[Not.AI]

I actually find the premise of having the player character be some special chosen one or some such bullshit really annoying ... it makes character progression from a nobody to a somebody meaningless(at least thematically) when you're already somebody to begin with.

Exactly. RPG is first of all about character development. (Like a symphony is all about development of a motif.) Obvious-growth-by-doing-stuff is the main source of fun.

Which is also why flat armor and no level scaling matters. Same reason. Helps character improvement be noticeable in practice. Ditto about no +1, +2, +3 items if stats are always in 10s or 100s - what is the big difference between 101 and 100?

Starting out as a "chosen one" makes it that much harder to build up plausible a story for a game that is 50h (unlike a film, which is short 3h) ... because if the PC is so special and there is any improvement, it makes little sense. If the hero of the game can just throw boulders while everybody else can at most lift pebbles, from minute number one, the story needs a cutscene and loss of player control to bop the PC on the head whenever the story must make a twist and a turn.

And there you go - suddenly the whole game is a "modern" game.

Spoiler

The only possible exception is when it's just some single special ability (maybe two or three but no more) that introduces a specific, narrow game mechanic that is particularly fun ... Like flipping gravity. Or flying.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

"Quests", in particular bulletpoints "quests".

 

[JarlFrank]

Nor has there been any mistake. I clearly described the type of wargame I was referring to—hardcore, full-fledged, extensive rules systems, very high granularity and detail—but this has been ignored by persons showing me their irrelevant examples.

All of the examples I posted are hardcore, full-fledged, extensive rules systems, with very high granularity and detail.

Maybe you could torrent the games in question and try them out (or buy them on a sale), get some first-hand experience with them, and either realize how wrong you are or come up with some flimsy excuses.

Graviteam Tactics and Combat Mission are more complex than 99% of turn based hex grid wargames out there, with the exception of Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2. Prove me wrong (protip: you can't).

 

[Orud]

Usually, when infinite respawning enemies is used for the entire game. Nothing breaks my immersion as much as everything constantly respawning. I'm fine with it when used in certain scenario's, just not when it is applied to everything.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

LOOK! THE MEGA BOSS RESPAWNED!! ... again..


... and so we grinded the boss so much that it became a spent xp whore filling our xp meter until it burst levelling us up again and again. We ran that train until it became such a liefless husk that it just bent over waiting to be respawned like a burnt out souless husk of the xp whore it was."

 

[Harthwain]

I will add one more point that annoys me a lot in games - when the AI isn't bound by the same rules as the player.

 

[JarlFrank]

I will add one more point that annoys me a lot in games - when the AI isn't bound by the same rules as the player.

I hate this in strategy games. The AI gets infinite money cheats to bolster its economy so it can keep up with the player... but that means raiding strategies against the enemy's economy no longer work. Took all their gold mines? Lol the AI doesn't care, it has a +5000 gold per turn income out of thin air. Should have attacked its main base instead and destroy their production buildings. Meanwhile if they take your gold mines, you're fucked.

Or how the higher difficulties in Total War games just increase the stats of enemy units, giving their tier 1 trash as much staying power as your elite heavily armored melee infantry. Now a bunch of levied spearmen can stand against your plate-armored elite swordsmen! And if the enemy has elite swordsmen too? The only way to win is to cheese the encounter by kiting with ranged units or repeated charge-retreat-charge cycles with cavalry.

Whenever the AI cheats to the point that strategies that make sense don't work, the game is gonna be shit because you're forced to cheese.

 

[Not.AI]

Or how the higher difficulties in Total War games just increase the stats of enemy units, giving their tier 1 trash as much staying power as your elite heavily armored melee infantry. Now a bunch of levied spearmen can stand against your plate-armored elite swordsmen! And if the enemy has elite swordsmen too? The only way to win is to cheese the encounter by kiting with ranged units or repeated charge-retreat-charge cycles with cavalry.

Is that a recent addition to entries in that series? I don't remember that in the old entries - is that in the new ones?

Spoiler

Paradoxical if so - because strategy games are among the few things that AI - including just very long decision trees and feature detectors - does very well. (Because strategy games tend to depend a lot on finesse ... So as soon as the dominant strategy is programmed in or the AI finds one by depth first search it is usually gg for the human player in that sort of game ... )

 

[JarlFrank]

Yes it's in the new ones. Higher difficulty settings give the AI insane bonuses.

 

[Berengar]

That is the entire premise of Sukoiden. If you don't get the full 108 NPCs, you don't get the best ending.

trying to find those fuckin squirrels by walking around with an open party slot was very lame

 

[Bruma Hobo]

"Quests", in particular bulletpoints "quests".

I like side-quests when they're indistinguishable from and/or help to advance the main plot (which is what Ultima did), and self-contained side-quests in sandbox games like Darklands and Daggerfall (and I don't mind if they're randomly generated if they compensate that with time limits and fail states), but self-contained optional quests divorced from the end game in plot-driven games like Fallout need to die asap.

 

[Not.AI]

I like side-quests when they're indistinguishable from and/or help to advance the main plot (which is what Ultima did), and self-contained side-quests in sandbox games like Darklands and Daggerfall (and I don't mind if they're randomly generated if they compensate that with time limits and fail states), but self-contained optional quests divorced from the end game in plot-driven games like Fallout need to die asap.

Gothic, Arx, S.t.a.l.k.e.r., the classics, etc, right.

There's an interesting way of achieving that goal and still delivering a twist / punchline end. And procedural is actually the best way to do that. (Today for large games.)

They have to be willing, however, to create a huge database of quests with "slots" and a way of working backward from an estimate of the end.

What makes it unlikely is mocap and voice acting for cinematics and the rest: most devs don't want to or not allowed to create 2/3 content that any given player will never see if it also requires voice acting and actors.

Putting disjoint fetch quests everywhere with "!" signs on a map means, in principle, 100% of the content voiced and acted can be seen by every player and justified.

 

[Blaine]

Trying to pretend like these aren't hardcore, full-fledged and detailed wargames is laughable. Unless you have a different definition of a wargame that is.

Yes, an actual wargame and not the war-themed equivalent of Crus'n USA. It's not a wargame just because it's 1.) war-themed and 2.) strategical or tactical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargame

Even Wikipedia has a better notion of what constitutes a wargame than most of you, although their definition is a little too broad in the margins.

Basically, there comes a point when a war-themed strategy or tactical game is simplified, streamlined, and automated enough that it can be presented real-time. In my view, that's the line in the sand (though it's fuzzy). It's not dissimilar to the line separating arcade airplane games from games like DCS, which is why I mentioned DCS—although proper vehicle simulators are real-time, but that's an inherent quality of them.

 

[Irata]

Story Rich
and/or
Anime

 

[JarlFrank]

simplified, streamlined, and automated

Again, Graviteam Tactics and Combat Mission are among the most complex wargames in existence.

Find me hex-and-counter wargames that are more complex than those, other than Gary Grigsby's War in the East. I'm waiting.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

simplified, streamlined, and automated

Again, Graviteam Tactics and Combat Mission are among the most complex wargames in existence.

Find me hex-and-counter wargames that are more complex than those, other than Gary Grigsby's War in the East. I'm waiting.

Gary Grigsby's war in the West.

 

[laclongquan]

Honestly, the main reason I dont replay SOZ is entirely due to that huge loading time~

Wouldn't loading times be shorter on modern machines?

The experience sore me on that game, so now that I have a better rig, I dont feel the interest to replay it~ Maaaaaaaaybe someday~

of course, younger players (potentially) play the game the 1st time with modern machine would not have that experience. But then younger players would not touch a ten years old game like that~

 

[Not.AI]

Another one:

HP sponge brawls followed immediately by cinematics where a characters fall over and stay down after being merely slapped.

I think that specific order matters - if it was just *no* cinematics it might actually be tolerable - would be merely abstract.

Like with novels: just waiting for cues that break suspension of disbelief. Whereas every game starts with the benefit of a doubt. Like you must give the benefit of a doubt to a novel, otherwise nobody would read.

Giving healthbars multiple layers - color coded or not - to make it seem like they are not just absurdly long doesn't help at all.

Another one:

Weird HP and weird damage model. Like the dragon can drop dead after being hit in the shins or the toes or the tail about 10X with wooden mallet.

In other words, the health bars must be "just right" - not too large and also not too small.

And all this relative over the whole game. If the squirrel has more HP than the ice giant because the squirrel is encountered much later ...

 

[DY050503]

Too much repetitive element, including story, combat, music...

 

[JarlFrank]

Another one:

HP sponge brawls followed immediately by cinematics where a characters fall over and stay down after being merely slapped.

I think that specific order matters - if it was just *no* cinematics it might actually be tolerable - would be merely abstract.

Like with novels: just waiting for cues that break suspension of disbelief. Whereas every game starts with the benefit of a doubt. Like you must give the benefit of a doubt to a novel, otherwise nobody would read.

Giving healthbars multiple layers - color coded or not - to make it seem like they are not just absurdly long doesn't help at all.

Another one:

Weird HP and weird damage model. Like the dragon can drop dead after being hit in the shins or the toes or the tail about 10X with wooden mallet.

In other words, the health bars must be "just right" - not too large and also not too small.

And all this relative over the whole game. If the squirrel has more HP than the ice giant because the squirrel is encountered much later ...

Solution: no HP but Dwarf Fortress style wound systems instead.

 

[Cael]

Another one:

HP sponge brawls followed immediately by cinematics where a characters fall over and stay down after being merely slapped.

I think that specific order matters - if it was just *no* cinematics it might actually be tolerable - would be merely abstract.

Like with novels: just waiting for cues that break suspension of disbelief. Whereas every game starts with the benefit of a doubt. Like you must give the benefit of a doubt to a novel, otherwise nobody would read.

Giving healthbars multiple layers - color coded or not - to make it seem like they are not just absurdly long doesn't help at all.

Another one:

Weird HP and weird damage model. Like the dragon can drop dead after being hit in the shins or the toes or the tail about 10X with wooden mallet.

In other words, the health bars must be "just right" - not too large and also not too small.

And all this relative over the whole game. If the squirrel has more HP than the ice giant because the squirrel is encountered much later ...

Solution: no HP but Dwarf Fortress style wound systems instead.

DF's wound system is random as poop. One second, a push will do no damage, and the next second, a push will take your leg off.

 

[Not.AI]

There can be a deterministic procedural system that takes HP and generates a non-HP points-of-possible injuries. As in arms, legs, head, with one point each but with different probability it gets hurt with specific type of impact.

Arms, legs, face, chest, etc has been around at least since late 80s as alternative to HP decreases/increases.

Also tie better crafting consumables into it. E.g., like real armor takes really one or two hits at most. But is modular ... replaceable ceramics.

 

[Cael]

There can be a deterministic procedural system that takes HP and generates a non-HP points-of-possible injuries. As in arms, legs, head, with one point each but with different probability it gets hurt with specific type of impact.

Arms, legs, face, chest, etc has been around at least since late 80s as alternative to HP decreases/increases.

Also tie better crafting consumables into it. E.g., like real armor takes really one or two hits at most. But is modular ... replaceable ceramics.

You mean like BTech hit location tables?

 

[Inhabitants of Khorinis]

Level gated gear/items (witcher 3, cybercuck): you can't put on this helmet because it's level 3 and you're level 1 so get fucked. Requirements for items (like high enough strength) is fine but level requirement is some arbitrary bulshit.

 

[Momock]

I think that random loot in "chests" is the most insuferable feature I experienced in RPGs, to the point of dropping them and not buying if I know beforehand it's present.
It was Wasteland 2 that made me realise how much I hate it.

Level scaling, level/race/class gated equipment, colored items and other casino/MMO garbage, RTwP, fucking cooldowns, mandatory companions, hack'n'slash/shooters faking being RPGs, move/attack instead of AP, respawning trashmobs... are all nefarious, but I can tolerate them to some extent, while random loot is just a plain NO.