Icewind Dale What is "trash" and non-"trash" combat?

[rusty_shackleford]

define pls

 

[whydoibother]

define pls

Well made and well placed encounters that allow you to use the environment, your abilities, and plan, etc, and advance the plot or quest or something, are "combat".
Encounters placed between the above, to fill up space, and fill up xp bars, and make sure the player has something to fight between dialogues, that aren't challenging nor require you to change your strategy nor advance the plot, are "trash combat".

 

[Wunderbar]

Even "trash combat" still has its place in RPGs because it causes attrition and forces players to carefully manage their resources.

 

[Falksi]

Good combat provokes a need for different tactics and dynamics on route to success, and is usually combined with satisfying feedback from executing respective combat moves, not to mention feel rhythmically good too.

Trash combat allows for too much repetition and often feels limp in the process.

 

[whydoibother]

Even "trash combat" still has its place in RPGs because it causes attrition and forces players to carefully manage their resources.

In Darkest Dungeon, yes. In games where you have X spells per day, yes, but only if resting is very restricted. In Dark Souls, yes, it drains your health pots. In 90% of RPGs however, not really. In Divinity Original Sin, there are a few trash encounters that are easy, don't cause attrition, and still take a while to go through because of animation speed. I can excuse it though, the good encounters are very good.

 

[Wunderbar]

In 90% of RPGs however, not really. In Divinity Original Sin, there are a few trash encounters that are easy, don't cause attrition, and still take a while to go through because of animation speed.

that's because DOS has no attrition at all which is decline.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

What is trash combat ?

Joined:
Jan 14, 2018
Messages:
39.566

This.

 

[Fowyr]

Even "trash combat" still has its place in RPGs because it causes attrition and forces players to carefully manage their resources.

This.
Properly made random encounter, for example, is not a trash combat. It causes you to lose health, spells and items. Rest spam is countered by non-rest zones, using your time (some quest could be timed) and resources (food) to rest and using random encounters that could be triggered by sleeping.

 

[whydoibother]

In 90% of RPGs however, not really. In Divinity Original Sin, there are a few trash encounters that are easy, don't cause attrition, and still take a while to go through because of animation speed.

that's because DOS has no attrition at all which is decline.

It could've had some attrition, if scrolls, potions and grenades were required to progress. As it is, they were more of a crutch for badly built characters.
I brought up DOS, because its popular, but its true for most RPGs: your resources regenerate between fights. So trash can't be attritional, its just filler. It only prolongs the level.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What is non-trash combat ?

Joined:
Jan 14, 2018
Messages:
39.566

This.

ah, good example of non-trash combat. now I understand.

 

[Thac0]

What seperates a good encounter from a trash encounter is that there are more than one potentially viable strategies for a good encounter. You need to make a judgement on how to fight and what abilities to use, and if you make an error of judgement you need to try again.
For a trash encounter it does not matter. Either the enemy encounter is so weak or their combat style is so basic that a static generalised strategy is sufficient. Usually just applying your strongest buff and waiting for your doods to shred the enemies through auto attacks in an infinity engine games.

For an example of either, mage warfare in Infinity Engine is usually not trash. You need to think about in what order to apply your anti magic, and if you get a spell into the gap between your opponents counter magic you need to take risks depending on their saves. Also mages usually do stuff that requires more attention from you to deal with it, like summoning more monsters, inflicting nasty debuffs or wiping your backline through high aoe spells. It happens that you wipe when you encounter a strong lich or something, and need to use different spells and different positioning next time. Same is true for dragons or strong demons.

Skeletons, Orks, Goblins, all of those are usually trash. They deploy no mages, and all units are either melee (keep them away from your squishies) or archers (get your melees to them). Not much room for optimisation of tactics, these trash encounters are also not even there to drain ressources, just to make your levelups feel more fun as you can kill them faster and safer with lower Thac0, higher AC, new spells and better weapons and armor.

 

[octavius]

Trash combat: when you face six orcs, then face another six orcs, and then another six orcs, and so on, instead of different encounters or a big fight against an army of orcs.
The former is the Gateway to the Savage Frontier school of encounter design, the latter is the far superior Pool of Radiance way.

 

[Van-d-all]

In a nutshell trash combat is one inconsequential to player forces. A steamroll resulting in victory despite tactics used, with negligible losses taken. Virtually a pointless chore and time sink. It might result from combat mechanics (ridiculous player vs. enemy stat disparity etc.) just as much as overall game mechanics (overleveling, doomstacking). Effectively, non trash combat is a varying degree from there, a challenge.

 

[just]

trash combat = games you like
non trash combat = games i like

 

[BruceVC]

Im not sure, I just know I like combat that requires me to use my party members effectively and in interesting ways around their skills and classes

Like in NWN, BG or D:OS2

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

As long as you gain something be it xp, skill, items, money, etc... it isn't trash.

it is the grind.... esp for the impatient.

 

[gurugeorge]

I talked about this a while ago in another thread. I think "trash" encounters come in more with games where you have exploration and a world to explore.

If the map is just links to a series of well-thought-out encounters, there's no need for trash mobs (maybe just a few as a warm-up before the encounter proper - that would be the place for the "attrition" argument).

If the map represents something more like an open world that you can explore, there are necessarily going to be more "trash" encounters (otherwise the world will feel empty and pointless) - mobs that wander around on their own schedule, guard little things, etc. If you have some trash mobs, it's a nice occasional power fantasy and gives you a measure of your progress - but too many of them and the game starts to seem like a pointless chore.

As always (my main theme in game discussion) it comes down to the tension between simulation/abstraction of reality and ad hoc gameplay rules, between immersion/presence and engagement, between the idea of encounters as virtual adventure incidents in a virtual world, and encounters as puzzles or problems. The perennial problem of RPGs is how to hold this tension, with the best or classic RPGs doing justice to both aspects. Veer too much one way and you have something like Skyrim - just a sort of random wandering simulator - veer too much the other way and you might as well just be playing Chess (you are effectively just playing something like Chess, but with snazzy miniatures and some special fx, like the "Chess" in Star Wars ). And you can have games that do either. But what we want from a meaty RPG is both conjoined.

The other polar tension, closely related, is between trance state and brain engagement. Sometimes doing the same thing repetitively is fun, you get into pleasant trance state where you just exercise muscle memory in a flow state; sometimes you want a challenge that's just on the edge of your capacity to beat, where you have to actually think. "Just the right amount" of trash mobs (or some farming zone, say) serves the former; too many and it takes too much of the game's energy and time away from the latter, leading to a hollow experience.

 

[JarlFrank]

Im not sure, I just know I like combat that requires me to use my party members effectively and in interesting ways around their skills and classes

Like in NWN, BG or D:OS2

lol NWN

NWN has utter trash for most of its encounters, especially chapter 1 (I never made it past chapter 1 of the OC, it's just so fucking trash).

Zombie infested quarter of the city? Have dozens of generic zombie enemies. Yawn.
Prison with escaped inmates? Have dozens of simple melee fighters. Yawn.

Extremely boring, and pretty much just the exact same enemy copypasted two dozen times across the map.

Sadly future Bioware titles suffer from the same issue, the encounter design in Dragon Age Origins was just as bad. 90% boring filler trash to maybe 10% of actual worthwhile encounters.

 

[whydoibother]

Im not sure, I just know I like combat that requires me to use my party members effectively and in interesting ways around their skills and classes

Like in NWN, BG or D:OS2

lol NWN

NWN has utter trash for most of its encounters, especially chapter 1 (I never made it past chapter 1 of the OC, it's just so fucking trash).

Zombie infested quarter of the city? Have dozens of generic zombie enemies. Yawn.
Prison with escaped inmates? Have dozens of simple melee fighters. Yawn.

Extremely boring, and pretty much just the exact same enemy copypasted two dozen times across the map.

Sadly future Bioware titles suffer from the same issue, the encounter design in Dragon Age Origins was just as bad. 90% boring filler trash to maybe 10% of actual worthwhile encounters.

The only fights I remember from NWN OC Act 1 are:
>the fight where that bard/rogue Robin Hood figure is protecting the last creature and its set up as a three way battle
>the mind controlling creature fight in the prison
>the first vampire fight, where there is garlic in a cupboard in the previous room and i broke my brain trying to figure out how to use it to fight the vampire, but you can't

Fucking ADWR has better combat encounters.

 

[bionicman]

Trash encounters are when enemies are too weak to pose any challenge. The obvious solution to this is level scaling.

Spoiler

 

[BruceVC]

Im not sure, I just know I like combat that requires me to use my party members effectively and in interesting ways around their skills and classes

Like in NWN, BG or D:OS2

lol NWN

NWN has utter trash for most of its encounters, especially chapter 1 (I never made it past chapter 1 of the OC, it's just so fucking trash).

Zombie infested quarter of the city? Have dozens of generic zombie enemies. Yawn.
Prison with escaped inmates? Have dozens of simple melee fighters. Yawn.

Extremely boring, and pretty much just the exact same enemy copypasted two dozen times across the map.

Sadly future Bioware titles suffer from the same issue, the encounter design in Dragon Age Origins was just as bad. 90% boring filler trash to maybe 10% of actual worthwhile encounters.

I just finished NWN EE and yes OC was a little boring but it picks up nicely with SoU and HotU and you can utilize your skills and party members abilities in different and exciting ways

Especially with the Undermountain and Underdark adventures

 

[whydoibother]

Trash encounters are when enemies are too weak to pose any challenge. The obvious solution to this is level scaling.

Spoiler

Road to Hell: The Post.

 

[Butter]

In 90% of RPGs however, not really. In Divinity Original Sin, there are a few trash encounters that are easy, don't cause attrition, and still take a while to go through because of animation speed.

that's because DOS has no attrition at all which is decline.

It wears down your patience over time.

 

[whydoibother]

In 90% of RPGs however, not really. In Divinity Original Sin, there are a few trash encounters that are easy, don't cause attrition, and still take a while to go through because of animation speed.

that's because DOS has no attrition at all which is decline.

It wears down your patience over time.

You mean you didn't move all the furniture to build a barricade and just hide on the other side summoning elementals from scrolls to bear bosses you are underleveled for in an hour long fight?

 

[KateMicucci]

A non-trash encounter is one that challenges a typical party played by a typical player who is going "all-out" on consumables and abilities. In a D&D-style game it's an encounter that is still challenging a fully rested party.