Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Obsidian General Discussion Thread

Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
to be fair, at least they're realizing that they're mediocre and unable to make anything of value
 

normie

️‍
Patron
Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
3,724
Insert Title Here
Production Essentials Summit: No Mavericks, No Martyrs: Sustainable, Collaborative Production

Most game teams have mavericks and martyrs--devs who work outside of normal pipelines and hours to get additional content and features into the game. Driven by "passion," they're often seen as leaders and MVPs.

However, the habits and attitudes that martyrs and mavericks instill have long-term consequences for team and project health. Their work often leads to scope bloat for downstream departments, shortcuts that accrue bugs and tech debt, and mistrust between "less committed" devs who resent the scope creep on the one hand and rogue agents hacking in risky and unaccounted-for content on the other.

This talk will examine how the unchecked enthusiasm of mavericks and martyrs can sabotage a team, healthier approaches that can foster sustainable and collaborative passion, and practical steps leads and producers can take to steer devs in a more productive direction without squashing their joy for their work.

Takeaway
Attendees will gain a concrete understanding of how seemingly innocuous individual behaviors can drive a team and their game towards disaster, a healthier mindset that can temper passion with collaboration and discipline, and practical tactics they can deploy to steer a team away from the brink.

Intended Audience
This talk is primarily directed at producers, directors, and strike team leads--leaders and managers who are responsible for team health and productivity. Other devs will find useful takeaways to inform their work habits. No prior knowledge is necessary, though production experience will give attendees useful context.

Chris Avellone: "I resemble that remark!"
so a tl;dr about how men should adopt the female mode of being in the workplace

what a useless, obvious and oblivious cunt
 

0sacred

poop retainer
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
1,411
Location
MFGA (Make Fantasy Great Again)
Codex Year of the Donut
Production Essentials Summit: No Mavericks, No Martyrs: Sustainable, Collaborative Production

Most game teams have mavericks and martyrs--devs who work outside of normal pipelines and hours to get additional content and features into the game. Driven by "passion," they're often seen as leaders and MVPs.

However, the habits and attitudes that martyrs and mavericks instill have long-term consequences for team and project health. Their work often leads to scope bloat for downstream departments, shortcuts that accrue bugs and tech debt, and mistrust between "less committed" devs who resent the scope creep on the one hand and rogue agents hacking in risky and unaccounted-for content on the other.


so a tl;dr about how men should adopt the female mode of being in the workplace

what a useless, obvious and oblivious cunt

isn't this exactly how Fallout was born :lol:
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,653
isn't this exactly how Fallout was born :lol:
TIM CAIN

Since everybody could technically go home at six, I sent out an email saying, "I'm going to be in Conference Room 3 with a couple pepperonis and a cheese pizza at six. If you want to talk about developing a new game, I've got the engine partially written. I can show you what the features are. I can kind of show you how the scripting is going to work. Come by and we can talk about what genres you like."

I hadn't even picked that out. There was no art, no genre.

LEONARD BOYARSKY

Only five or six people showed up. Which, to me, was shocking. Even if you didn't want to design a game from scratch—and I couldn't believe people didn't want to be involved in that—there was free pizza! If you don't care about one, I'd think you'd care about the other.

TIM CAIN

I remember what was surprising at the time was how few people showed up. I expected there to be twenty or thirty people packed into that conference room because, hey, we can make whatever game we want! Instead there were maybe eight, ten.

Patel would have been one of the employees who definitely wouldn't bother to show up. Only the passionate people excited to make a game from scratch stayed late to talk about it.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Only five or six people showed up. Which, to me, was shocking. Even if you didn't want to design a game from scratch—and I couldn't believe people didn't want to be involved in that
main difference between people who actually want to create something vs people who just want to be "in the industry"
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,647
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Production Essentials Summit: No Mavericks, No Martyrs: Sustainable, Collaborative Production

Most game teams have mavericks and martyrs--devs who work outside of normal pipelines and hours to get additional content and features into the game. Driven by "passion," they're often seen as leaders and MVPs.

However, the habits and attitudes that martyrs and mavericks instill have long-term consequences for team and project health. Their work often leads to scope bloat for downstream departments, shortcuts that accrue bugs and tech debt, and mistrust between "less committed" devs who resent the scope creep on the one hand and rogue agents hacking in risky and unaccounted-for content on the other.

This talk will examine how the unchecked enthusiasm of mavericks and martyrs can sabotage a team, healthier approaches that can foster sustainable and collaborative passion, and practical steps leads and producers can take to steer devs in a more productive direction without squashing their joy for their work.

Takeaway
Attendees will gain a concrete understanding of how seemingly innocuous individual behaviors can drive a team and their game towards disaster, a healthier mindset that can temper passion with collaboration and discipline, and practical tactics they can deploy to steer a team away from the brink.

Intended Audience
This talk is primarily directed at producers, directors, and strike team leads--leaders and managers who are responsible for team health and productivity. Other devs will find useful takeaways to inform their work habits. No prior knowledge is necessary, though production experience will give attendees useful context.
Pathetic lazy cunt.
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,329
how people many times are morally gray and make decisions that make sense on their situation to survive even if not moralistic, how culture needs myths and symbols to make people stick together and how those same myths lead them to inevitable conflict.
This is literally what Pillars of Eternity's plot is about lol
 

BlackheartXIII

Educated
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
85
well, Patel originally came from Ernst and Young's transfer pricing department before she was hired at obsidian, so i am not surprised that she vouching for a flat and conformist corporate culture.
 

Hobknobling

Learned
Joined
Nov 16, 2021
Messages
346
In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.
 

BlackheartXIII

Educated
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
85
In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.

a lot of those self professed creatives don't have the intellectual rigor to achieve a BA in the exact sciences faculties, therefore it might be difficult for them to apply for entry level positions such as I.T or Q.A. in the same note i would like to remined that a writing position in a gaming studio is a steady writing job which is very rare in the publishing industry, maybe thats the main reason that in the last 10 years we are witnessing a migration of failing YA novelists into to the field of video games writing.
 
Last edited:

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,647
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
in the same note i would like to remined that a writing position in a gaming studio is a steady writing job which is very rare in the publishing industry, maybe thats the main reason that in the last 10 years we are witnessing a migration of failing YA novelists into to the field of video games writing.
That's actually a very good point.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The truth is that in many ways writing for large RPGs in particular has evolved to become a job well suited to women. There's a lot of mind-numbing "secretarial" work involved - it's not all about the major plot twists and the standout characters that everyone remembers. These games have hundreds of minor NPCs, each with all sorts of minor reactivity that needs to be accounted for. Design documents and inventory item descriptions. The high-achieving alpha talent will want to move on to higher level roles as soon as possible. For many, writing scripts for prestige television shows will seem a lot more interesting.
 

BlackheartXIII

Educated
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
85
in the 90's alot of this "mind-numbing "secretarial" work" were given to aspiring designers ( that's how we got Josh Sawyer), maybe due to the creation and the expension of "professional" writing teams in rpg studios most of that kind of work is preserved to their interns, therefore this "back door" pipeline is declining, Might explain the hiring of like minded people in writing positions in most studios (with basically the same background (educational and socioeconomical)) and the homogeneous of rpg writing in general.
 
Last edited:

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
594
1.png
1.png


https://www.katedollarhyde.com/publications

check the link, according to Dollarhyde's (creative freelancer) website she is assigned as a narrative lead at avowed and as a narrative designer in an unannounced title- most likely josh swayers Disco Elysium esque project.

about Dollarhyde's writing career ambitions:
"The main titles I’ve worked on these past three years, Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire and The Outer Worlds, have been nominated for and won their share of awards in the games sphere. To see our work recognized by players and developers—it’s been undeniably gratifying. But science fiction and fantasy literature has always been my real home base. Uncool and terminally earnest as it might sound, it was that writing and reading community I desperately wanted to be part of (still do) and recognized by (still, still do) more even than I ever wanted to make video games."

quoted from: https://putadungeoninit.substack.co...&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=substack_profile
I suppose that's to be expected seeing as how awful the writing for alternative player choices in the Outer Worlds was.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.

What you say is true, but there is a tension between the idea of video game development as a calling and the way video games are actually produced today.

A small team making a game they always wanted to make, where each person has a lot of input on how things turned out, sure that might be a calling.

But a large AAA team making the next big budget game in an established series? Where each person's contribution is very specific and limited and they have little or no input on the direction of the game? A 3d modeler who is in charge of modeling door knobs, room interiors and the occasional generic minion?

That sounds a lot more like a job than a calling. Probably a pretty shitty job, if you're expected to work longer hours for smaller compensation.
 

vortex

Fabulous Optimist
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
4,221
Location
Temple of Alvilmelkedic
Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
522
Location
Germoney
Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.

I'm one of them who'd like a conclusion to a -- possibly -- Watcher's trilogy.

If they really ever think about switching the format for a possible third game, I'd rather have them take a real close look at their own games, namely, a real close look at New Vegas. In the ongoing quest of the (very few) bigger budget studios to attract an ever larger audience, it's like the only (AAA) RPG of the last decade plus or so that truly earns its tag, and it's a pity that it didn't prove more influential. But then you only attract ever more players on top of the genre's core if you now clearly also desperately aim for the Ubisoft action/adventure and/or Borderlands looter shooter crowd, so... let the quest$ continue.

I've posted this elsewhere already, but from my observation, at least every since the "Kickstarter renaissance", the genre has even become ever more radicalized and polarized: There's been a wealth of BG/Fallout-lookalikes on the one side -- on the other there's the big studios developing games that increasingly play, look and feel like every other blockbuster title on the market they try to compete (and fit) in. But there's very limited middle ground. I think games such as New Vegas (or prior to it Bloodlines, maybe even Kotor) previously fit that slot just pretty fine.
 
Last edited:

vortex

Fabulous Optimist
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
4,221
Location
Temple of Alvilmelkedic
I'm one of them who'd like a conclusion to a -- possibly -- Watcher's trilogy.

If they really ever think about switching the format for a possible third game, I'd rather have them take a real close look at their own games, namely, a real close look at New Vegas.

I've posted this elsewhere already, but from my observation, at least every since the "Kickstarter renaissance", the genre has even become ever more radicalized and polarized: There's been a wealth of BG/Fallout-lookalikes on the one side -- on the other there's the big studios developing games that increasingly play, look and feel like every other blockbuster title on the market they try to compete (and fit) in. But there's very limited middle ground. I think games such as New Vegas (or prior to it Bloodlines, maybe even Kotor) previously fit that slot just pretty fine.

If they'll switch format as 3rd person view, they should start brand new Watcher's trilogy.
Larian has set new heights for isometric cRPG and judging from the size of Obsidian I don't think Pillars 3 can achieve BG3 success.
We'll see if Avowed would be a turning point as first person RPG and thus ditching isometric format altogether.
 

Flou

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
869
Location
Hellsinki
If they'll switch format as 3rd person view, they should start brand new Watcher's trilogy.
Larian has set new heights for isometric cRPG and judging from the size of Obsidian I don't think Pillars 3 can achieve BG3 success.
We'll see if Avowed would be a turning point as first person RPG and thus ditching isometric format altogether.

I don't think they should ditch it completely. They can still make quality games that way with smaller teams. Their smaller teams are stuck doing something else though.
 

koyota

Cipher
Patron
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
216
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.

I`m sure you will be able to press a button get into third person mode in Avowed, there you go!
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,653
A programmer posting on glassdoor seems to be happy with the way things are going now:

Pros

Talented team

Great work/life balance, little to no crunch

Hardened development pipeline

Accommodating to find work that aligns with your interests

Cons

Nothing unique to Obsidian.

Goalposts may move, features may be removed, etc...

The days of crunch are over, eh? We'll see how things are when there's only a few months left to ship.
 

BlackheartXIII

Educated
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
85
here a link to a pdf file for the slides from the rules of the game talk that occurred at GDC22:
https://paranoidproductions.com/miscwritings/RulesOfTheGame2022.pdf

the slides are presenting 4 perspectives and design philosophies from 4 different professional "creatives" that unintentionally shedding a light on the institutionalization of games and the creative decline in games in general. Carrie Patel narrative design philosophy presented in slides 59-68, that argues that a game narrative design should borrow structural templates from improvisational theatre as model for understanding and precipitating player's interactions and expectations.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom