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Can modern gamers get into old crpg's?

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,053
"Modern gamers" can't even take screenshots anymore and instead photograph their monitors. Technological literacy is incredibly low among normal people and only getting worse.
You're fucking kidding.... right? I recall on my old hobo 386 or was it a 486 that I was having a fucky time getting screenshots. Then I discovered screenthief and shit like that.

your point stands as I see it in this thread

And you can still get screenthief here.
I'm sure there were other programs like the one i had that'd rip graphics from the goldbox games. Forgot the name. I was into FRUA for a bit and finally got shitty earthlink dialup with BLINKY!
blinky.png

Got a lot of viruses as well that destroyed my data a few times. I was running a 486 comp and a win98se comp side by side ag the time.




It's still around?


Earth Link
cWylJ5i.jpg
 
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Fedora Master

Arcane
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
28,080
"Modern gamers" can't even take screenshots anymore and instead photograph their monitors. Technological literacy is incredibly low among normal people and only getting worse.
You're fucking kidding.... right? I recall on my old hobo 386 or was it a 486 that I was having a fucky time getting screenshots. Then I discovered screenthief and shit like that.

your point stands as I see it in this thread

And you can still get screenthief here.
I'm sure there were other programs like the one i had that'd rip graphics from the goldbox games. Forgot the name. I was into FRUA for a bit and finally got shitty earthlink dialup with BLINKY!
blinky.png

Got a lot of viruses as well that destroyed my data a few times. I was running a 486 comp and a win98se comp side by side ag the time.

The "Using my phone is easier!" shit is extremely common Reddit. Because of course.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,053
A few years ago I learned my iphone could take screenshots if i held the home button and sirri would popup. Say "SCREENSHOT" and it would do it. Pretty simple today on phones even. Last resort camera is like if you have no screen capture devices for real hardware for old consoles or computers.


Good luck getting a screen shot for a Lite Bright. Or Etch-a-sketch. But that's being ridiculous.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
As someone who is likely on the younger end of the Codex user base, I will describe my experience trying to get people to play older (late 90s in this case) RPGs. Most of the people game while either being in a Discord call, listening to music, or drunk/high so their focus is not primarily on whatever it is they are playing. This leads to them consulting a walk-through or simply dropping the game whenever they become lost. Just getting people to play an older game is next to impossible with the only reliable method being a YouTuber they watch releasing a video covering it. Thief, System Shock, Baldur's Gate, all of these were games I praised yet my calls went unheard until some guy makes a video that spoils the whole thing while mentioned the most efficient way to play. Not that this matters as they quickly jump onto another a bandwagon after a week or maybe two if lucky. Ultimately a lot of the people I know play games because it is the current zeitgeist and often use phrases such as "I need to play this" or "I should beat that" because these people consume games out of obligation not for enjoyment.

Some people can get into older RPGs but by far your average modern gamer will not even consider touching something older if it is outside the current social trend.
Basically they're totally disengaged and largely uninterested in games and use them as a means to while away time, and they generally have absolutely atrocious attention spans. If you want to get them into games, the first thing you need to do is fix their shit attention spans. As such, you need to expose them to games that don't simply challenge them but pressure them to actively pay attention (ie. challenging = making a move without paying attention will fail whereas pressuring = doing nothing and not paying attention will see you fail or heavily punished). You really need to get them started on games that punish people for idling and also strongly encourage them to be constantly active (ie. it shouldn't just be the fear of failure that keeps you moving, but also the promise of success as well as general entertainment). As such, I would recommend starting them on Quake Live (which is basically Quake 3 Arena but slightly retuned and it's much easier to find multiplayer lobbies) and doing multiplayer matches with them. Bantering and some basic trash talk ("Imma kick your ass", "dude, easy mode bots are for scrubs") will probably also motivate them to stay engaged, as does making a regular thing out of playing a Quake match together.

Playing Quake Live for extended periods of time will pretty much improve their attention spans since it's a game that demands constant attention while you are playing it.

I'm also inclined to note that people like that are kinda stupid and when it comes to enjoying computer games you need people who don't tune out their brains. Thief, System Shock, and even Baldur's Gate are pretty cerebral games for people who are used to skipping manuals, not thinking about things, and just jumping right in and getting success handed to them as long as they keep moving forward and pushing buttons. Older CRPGs in particular have built-in literacy tests where a failure to read the manual (and gamers like that will even skip over reading in-game text) will make the game borderline unplayable for new players and turbo-casuals like that do not have the patience or inclination to read.

I guess you can use Dragon Age: Origins as an entry point to try to get them interested in RPGs like Baldur's Gate and then use that to get them interested in other classic RPGs, but I'm not sure how available non-EE versions of BG are.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,226
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It helps that outside of DOS machines, most computers came with joysticks

IBM PCs and several clones came with joysticks too :-P but they weren't that popular because the IBM PC was largely seen as a serious business computer during its earlier years.

I used to think this image was an overreaction.

It is an overreaction from self-centered people who think that everyone should either enjoy their hobby like they do or nobody can enjoy it at all. In practice those two instead of getting butthurt mad that there are others who are having fun in a way they dislike, they could simply not play with these others and resume playing by themselves just like they used to do.

In computer gaming terms, they could simply stop giving attention to all the AAAAA+ overhyped games that they dislike and start buying indie games they do like.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2015
Messages
2,095
Location
DFW, Texas
I'd be interested to know the absolute numbers of people who played old RPGs then and people who appreciate them now.
Surely the ratio of idiots among people who play games in general is massively higher than in the 90s since it became a mainstream hobby, but I think it's possible that the absolute number of people who like actually good games is still higher than it used to be.
People keep saying that older systems and games selected for intelligence, but I don't think that's the case. Instead, it selected for people who were introverted, socially outcast, and more comfortable with machines than human beings with a wide range of intelligence.

One of them quit during one of the first subquests where you're supposed to get money from a guy who owes your dad, and the guy refuses to pay and beats you up, because "I don't want to spend my time trying to learn controls in a time-sensitive minigame that lasts only a few seconds. That is neither fun nor educational for me."
If it wasn't educational, he wouldn't need to learn anything to win. That sounds like self-deception, but attributing self-deception to low intelligence is a mistake. Highly intelligent people are better able to rationalize away contrary evidence to uphold their biases than unintelligent people. Just look at the contemporary adherents of Derrida, Lacan, and Foucault. All those years of education, but so very ignorant of the world...

There are also more and more people who "hate when games don't respect their time", which generally means any game that's marginally difficult and has a danger of having to replay anything.
That sounds like someone repeating a phrase he heard one of the cool kids say without understanding what it means. Originally the phrase was in reference to time-wasting mechanics like simplistic fetch-quests, excess grinding for experience and items in RPGs, progression systems in multiplayer shooters (e.g. Battlefield and Titanfall), or a lack of a save-anywhere feature -- all content used to pad out the length of a game for the purposes of marketing or to induce players into paying hidden fees.

It's also possible that some marketing firm payed shills to seed discussion forums with comments that misuse the phrase so that they could shift its meaning into something that is more friendly to a corporate agenda. That way in advertising they can say, "Our game respects your time," but what they really mean is, "We've streamlined away features to save costs and appeal to a casual audience." This kind of bait-&-switch is commonplace in marketing, and Reddit as a site is known for its astroturfing campaigns.

All but the simplest media eventually becomes outdated as cultures and languages change. We still play chess and even sennet, but good luck reading and appreciating the Iliad nowadays. Even the original Dracula novel has issues with outdated styles despite the character’s popularity.
Is your native language something other than English? There are good translations of the Iliad and Odyssey in English, and Dracula was only written in 1897. I remember reading John Stuart Mill's On Liberty as well as the US Constitution in sixth grade social studies without myself or the class having too much trouble, as well as a translation of the Illiad and Odyssey the next year. Have things really gotten that bad in schools?

I would say that reading the Iliad is far more relevant today as compared to the time when I attended school, since there are many contemporary authors that are seeking to create a new, Western mythology. These authors hope to use this new mythology as a means to control Western culture and direct public opinion towards completing the authors' desires. Fortunately, most of these authors are incompetent storytellers, but that's really a digression.

A more appealing artstyle (face the facts: kids want to learn how to draw anime, while the kings of 80s D&D art like Larry Elmore are only remembered by a dwindling few grognards).
Remember: a competent laborer with an essential skill can negotiate his price. To a manager, the ideal worker is an interchangeable cog in their production machine. The main reason developers dropped the realistic style of the past is that it is far cheaper to hire unskilled labor to churn out generic, reproduceable illustrations. Western art simply got so bad that the anime-style, originally intended to be time-saving caricatures like the old Hanna-Barbera productions, began to exceed Western illustrators simply by maintaining a consistent level of quality. Of course, losing the competitive pressure from Western illustrators over the last decade or so has also lead to a slow decline in manga and anime quality.

Modern games will poison gaming the same way the hunger games and harry potter ruined literature and Disney and Netflix destroyed television. These new products will be considered the peak of the medium for future generations. I think they are being raised to have shit taste and will be unable to understand anything that doesn't offer instant gratification through exp, pretty textures, and regular dlc.
Harry Potter and The Hunger Games did not destroy literature. Publishers did. See the aforementioned Brandon Sanderson campaign, as well as the Sad Puppies campaign. A lot of traditional publishers across media have been infiltrated and controlled by nepotistic ideologues, and competent authors are moving on to alternative methods of publishing, like Amazon self-publishing and Kickstarter. With a name like Brandon Sanderson lending legitimacy to these alternative publishers, traditional publishers will be forced to adapt or be strangled into irrelevancy.
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
671
Oh cmon. This thread is really hard to follow. Everybody seems to write a friggin essay.
 
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RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,058
Is your native language something other than English? There are good translations of the Iliad and Odyssey in English, and Dracula was only written in 1897. I remember reading John Stuart Mill's On Liberty as well as the US Constitution in sixth grade social studies without myself or the class having too much trouble, as well as a translation of the Illiad and Odyssey the next year. Have things really gotten that bad in schools?

I would say that reading the Iliad is far more relevant today as compared to the time when I attended school, since there are many contemporary authors that are seeking to create a new, Western mythology. These authors hope to use this new mythology as a means to control Western culture and direct public opinion towards completing the authors' desires. Fortunately, most of these authors are incompetent storytellers, but that's really a digression.
I'm sorry, my articulation skills weren't working well when I wrote that. I was trying to make a point about cultural, linguistic and technological drift but... well, you can see that I didn't make my point very well.

Anyway, old texts can be translated and annotated to account for drift in culture and language, even if this loses something in the translation. Preserving video games, and in a playable state, is much more difficult.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,053
Socially awkward? People were ahead of their time knowing billions would be jacked into the servers. They'd die without cyber....

DIE!!!
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Fallout and Baldur's Gate taught me English because the German translations were so terrible so I prefered US imports. Ah the sweet memories doing my first playthroughs with a thick dictionary besides the keyboard to look up countless words. Messing up with Tandi because I misunderstood the word "exaggerating"...
 

Denim Destroyer

Learned
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
433
Location
Moonglow, Britannia
Basically they're totally disengaged and largely uninterested in games and use them as a means to while away time, and they generally have absolutely atrocious attention spans. If you want to get them into games, the first thing you need to do is fix their shit attention spans. As such, you need to expose them to games that don't simply challenge them but pressure them to actively pay attention (ie. challenging = making a move without paying attention will fail whereas pressuring = doing nothing and not paying attention will see you fail or heavily punished). You really need to get them started on games that punish people for idling and also strongly encourage them to be constantly active (ie. it shouldn't just be the fear of failure that keeps you moving, but also the promise of success as well as general entertainment). As such, I would recommend starting them on Quake Live (which is basically Quake 3 Arena but slightly retuned and it's much easier to find multiplayer lobbies) and doing multiplayer matches with them. Bantering and some basic trash talk ("Imma kick your ass", "dude, easy mode bots are for scrubs") will probably also motivate them to stay engaged, as does making a regular thing out of playing a Quake match together.

Playing Quake Live for extended periods of time will pretty much improve their attention spans since it's a game that demands constant attention while you are playing it.

I'm also inclined to note that people like that are kinda stupid and when it comes to enjoying computer games you need people who don't tune out their brains. Thief, System Shock, and even Baldur's Gate are pretty cerebral games for people who are used to skipping manuals, not thinking about things, and just jumping right in and getting success handed to them as long as they keep moving forward and pushing buttons. Older CRPGs in particular have built-in literacy tests where a failure to read the manual (and gamers like that will even skip over reading in-game text) will make the game borderline unplayable for new players and turbo-casuals like that do not have the patience or inclination to read.

I guess you can use Dragon Age: Origins as an entry point to try to get them interested in RPGs like Baldur's Gate and then use that to get them interested in other classic RPGs, but I'm not sure how available non-EE versions of BG are.
Some time ago I abandoned hope of changing my friends taste in video games and have came to the conclusion that we do not need to share everything. Sad but is the reality of the situation.
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
2,536
It is an overreaction from self-centered people who think that everyone should either enjoy their hobby like they do or nobody can enjoy it at all. In practice those two instead of getting butthurt mad that there are others who are having fun in a way they dislike, they could simply not play with these others and resume playing by themselves just like they used to do.
Perhaps, but more than one player here has felt burned by developers who instead of continuing to make RPGs, casualized their games and left no one satisfied. Just like they fail to realize that once upon a time they were those filthy casuals.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,226
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Perhaps, but more than one player here has felt burned by developers who instead of continuing to make RPGs, casualized their games and left no one satisfied.

Well, TBH i do find the obsession many people here have with developers that they've long proven to not see them as a target audience anymore kinda weird :-P. Like ok, i can see it the first time around and perhaps the second in case last case was a mistake, but after that it is pointless.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
230
Location
Calgary
Even my daughter is another example of this instant gratification bullshit.

They are all hooked on tablets, Roblox, minecraft etc.

I try to play older games like Super Mario World on the SNES, or any game that is two players. Her, soon she dies, not her turn, etc she gets bored, annoyed. It's not a age thing, it's the oh tap on this thing that all kids are hooked on.

When I was a kid I could sit there for hours waiting for my turn, and try my hardest.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,053
Watching at the arcade. Damn good times. Playing at the arcade with only a few quarters to a few bucks. Choose a machine and make it last. Better git gud fast.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,689
Location
Perched on a tree
Even my daughter is another example of this instant gratification bullshit.

They are all hooked on tablets, Roblox, minecraft etc.

I try to play older games like Super Mario World on the SNES, or any game that is two players. Her, soon she dies, not her turn, etc she gets bored, annoyed. It's not a age thing, it's the oh tap on this thing that all kids are hooked on.

When I was a kid I could sit there for hours waiting for my turn, and try my hardest.

There's two main reasons:
  • Hyperactivity, mostly because of some additives from sweets.
  • Childs should not be exposed to tablets and smartphones, they get addicted, TV too but it's easier to manage. There's a reason why Jobs' children didn't have access to technology. Besides that, too much exposure kills creativity.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
ome time ago I abandoned hope of changing my friends taste in video games and have came to the conclusion that we do not need to share everything. Sad but is the reality of the situation.
That's a fair call. Playing Quake Live together might be fun though. Q3A is usually a lot of fun with friends.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,226
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Her, soon she dies, not her turn, etc she gets bored, annoyed. It's not a age thing, it's the oh tap on this thing that all kids are hooked on.

When I was a kid I could sit there for hours waiting for my turn, and try my hardest.

I think the biggest difference by far is that she has alternatives while you didn't. When all you have are ~5 games you'll be certain that you'll take your time with them - and the games will make sure that they'll give you the time you are expecting. And i guess all you had was a single system to play those on so even if you wanted, you'd be waiting for your turn anyway since you wouldn't be able to play the games otherwise.

Meanwhile there are ~30 games released per day on Steam alone - on phones that number is several times bigger and the games tend to be free there. Anyone who feels like playing a game now has the ability to do so and in that environment waiting for your turn when you could be playing something else will certainly feel boring - after all you could be playing some game instead.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,801
I'd say it depends on a game. Some are so good (or have such reputation) they get re-relased to fit the modern systems and you can easily people playing them. In case of others (not re-released) a lot depends on how easy it is to run them without some advanced tinkering. And that's not even mentioning people who pass on a game because of graphics or because they don't even know about its existence. I myself pass on some games, because I hate certain control schemes.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,204
When I was a kid I self-learned English because I wanted to learn computer programming and the only computer programming books I had were in English. I self-learned to program because I wanted to create my games to play.
 

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