Game News Queen's Wish 2: The Tormentor gets trailer and Steam page, coming Fall 2022

[Curratum]

codex shilling for yet another shovelware...

I mean, I'm not against reporting on new releases, if the language is relatively neutral...

 

[Curratum]

I read here on rpg-codex that other indie developers had to sell (?!) their houses.

And hair.

Another dev eats roots.

One lost their family and lives under a bridge and sleeps with kangaroos.

Art is suffering.

Why not just develop on your free time? If you can afford to do any of the above, you obviously don't have a family and only need to take care of yourself. Fuckers working under 3DR and New Blood take YEARS to make a small-scale indie, delaying it indefinitely, just because they work on their games in addition to their day job.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Kotc2 is a revolution compared to ole Jeff

KOTC2 has some positive aspects for sure, but it's also a tale of indie self sabotage.

KOTC2 has an all time peak of 51 players on steam while Queen's Wish 1 has an all time peak of 399.

Interestingly Avadon 1 has a peak of 516 while each of the sequels show a big decline, with the third having a peak of only 132.

Source: steamdb . info no idea if it's accurate

 

[Modron]

Interestingly Avadon 1 has a peak of 516 while each of the sequels show a big decline, with the third having a peak of only 132.

Source: steamdb . info no idea if it's accurate

Yeah most people wrote off the sequels because the first game was so meh which was a shame because the second game was more on par with his past games.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

There will be a third to finish the trilogy you can count on that? He'll probably remaster Geneforge 2 before QW3 though. I'm surprised Avernum 4-6 didn't get the remaster treatment. Does GGS have a lair at Spiderweb software?

Queen's Wish thus far

There will always be fans and as he said (i think) when he stops gaining any enjoyment out of making the games is when he'll quit.
Now, will he remake/make
Blades of Avernum
Avadon construction set
Geneforge Construction set
Queen's Wish Construction set

who knows.

 

[Luzur]

Well i always get them for free so i dont really complain that much LOL

although QW 1 was....i dunno, half-done? boring after the first bit? felt like a half-finished Avernum game that was missing alot of the fun stuff, even the fort building felt like building lego but you couldnt place stuff as you wanted but had to put them in designated squares.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Oh? Designated squares? Well, I hope that changes.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Vogel's games peaked somewhere around Avernum 3 and declined from there. Just let it die already.

 

[Drop Duck]

Vogel's games peaked somewhere around Avernum 3 and declined from there. Just let it die already.

Avernum 3 was just a remake of Exile 3. Avernum 3 also got a remake, do you mean the remake of the remake or the first remake?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Gotta wait until Exile R4 (the remake going full circle... TBA in the future)

 

[Modron]

Vogel's games peaked somewhere around Avernum 3 and declined from there. Just let it die already.

Exile 3 was better than either of the Avernum 3s, that said his Geneforge 1 remake is supposed to be better than the original. So his remakes can swing either way.

 

[Contagium]

I wish you could reply with Codex icons in Steam forums, because this one clearly deserves an "okily dokily!"

 

[MRY]

Well, at least he has his finances under control.

To me, this is both the triumph and the tragedy of Jeff Vogel. The triumph is that he is a multi-multi-millionaire who has been able to work from home as his own boss making RPGs for thirty years, a level of lifestyle attainment that utterly squashes even people thought of as winners in the RPG industry (consider, for example, that when Avellone was working in an office cube in endless crunch mode on PS:T for probably around $30k a year, Vogel was making something like ten times that much chilling at home -- and Avellone is a success story!). Vogel never added a feature because a publisher asked for it; he didn't even add it because players asked for it. He never saw his IP dismembered by some other developer. He simply did the minimum work he thought would achieve his goals, and he achieved them. The tragedy is that the "artistic freedom" furnished by this unprecedented* success revealed that Vogel didn't have some all-consuming passion to make the greatest RPGs ever. I've previously quoted the Caro line that "power doesn't always corrupt" but "power always reveals." The closest thing to a memoir Vogel wrote, as far as I know, was called "The Poo Bomb" (2005), and while it's not about being a developer, I always took the book to reveal that he ultimately just doesn't take himself very seriously. I used to think of an auteur as someone who, given financial independence, would produce their greatest work. But in Vogel's case (as in many others) this is exactly backwards. The greatest work was achieved not a consequence of financial success, but as a means to financial success; once financial success is achieved, the need for great work evaporates. Vogel isn't tortured by a muse of fire; he just wanted to get paid a ton of money and lead a chill life with his family. And he did! So much the worse for us, but so much the better for him.

(* Yes, unprecedented -- other RPG auteur developers either washed out or eventually became corporate subordinates, even erstwhile major CEOs who made a ton more money and had much more fame, such as Garriott or Fargo or Urquhart or the Bioware doctors.)

[EDIT: While Vogel stands alone in RPGs as far as I know, Dave Gilbert is on track to achieve the same thing as an adventure game publisher/developer -- wealthy work-from-home dad for 15+ years.]

 

[Tyranicon]

The triumph is that he is a multi-multi-millionaire

If this is sarcasm, it went over my head. To my knowledge, and from what Vogel himself says (in that one GDC video that's always making the rounds and in various blog posts), I would've assumed he's only somewhat comfortable financially. Certainly not wealthy. Vogel's the poster boy for earning a middle-class income as a toymaker-type gamedev.

A casual google search could not find an accurate networth, although one website estimated his company to have $10 million in annual revenue... and 60 employees. :D

 

[d1r]

Not a lot a buzz on the Steam page yet. In fact... only forum post so far is mine.

View attachment 23865

Shit, this forum is even emptier than Redaxium's cesspool of a forum.

 

[MRY]

Not sarcasm. Even making a conservative estimate from the numbers posted, let’s say he averaged $300k a year for 25 years. That’s $7.5M. And most of these small business/home business sorts find all kinds of tax avoidance schemes (I think?) so compared to the guy working a desk job paying 40%, he’s probably keeping most if not all of it. He had almost no third-party expenses and hard costs. Based on those revenue figures, I imagine he’s got several million in savings plus a lot of home equity.

 

[Tyranicon]

Not sarcasm. Even making a conservative estimate from the numbers posted, let’s say he averaged $300k a year for 25 years. That’s $7.5M. And most of these small business/home business sorts find all kinds of tax avoidance schemes (I think?) so compared to the guy working a desk job paying 40%, he’s probably keeping most if not all of it. He had almost no third-party expenses and hard costs. Based on those revenue figures, I imagine he’s got several million in savings plus a lot of home equity.

It's probably reasonable to think that with proper management, Vogel has a net worth of a few million, although I thought you suggested more with the "multi-multi-millionaire" comment. But even this is pure speculation.

Below is a somewhat semi-detailed accounting of Vogel's games and sales. This is actually a subject I'm very interested in, given the field we work in.


Vogel gives a few key points in his GDC video and blog. From those and other sources we know that:

• 1995: Exile 1, his first real game, is released. Gross (before taxes, fees, everything) sales of $32k for the year.
• 1997: Exile 3, Vogel's first hit, is released, leading to a gross of $207k.
  
• 2003: Geneforge 2 is released, Vogel sold a gross of $212k worth of games.
• 2004: Blades of Avernum is released, gross sales of $168k.
• 2006: Geneforge 4 is released, single-game gross lifetime (until 2009 at least) sales of $111k.
  
• 2011: Avernum: Escape from the Pit and Avadon: The Black Fortress are released. Vogel marked gross sales of $750k. He describes this as "life-changing" and a "very lucky break." We can reasonably assume this is one of his best years.
• 2018: Queen's Wish: the Conqueror raises almost $100k in crowdfunding.
• 2021: Queen's Wish: the Tormentor raises $65k in crowdfunding.

Vogel is notoriously prolific, having released about 23 or so games during his career. It should be noted that before 2010, he released a new game every year since he started in 1995. After 2010 he occasionally takes a break roughly every two years. This is incredibly impressive, and probably generates a decent income given his moderate, but loyal fanbase. The number of games, paired with their quality and longevity, probably also means good things when it comes to longtail sales.

However, it is after 2011 or so that we start seeing issues. After a stellar year and a breakout hit in Avernum: Escape from the Pit, it seems that Vogel was unable to capitalize on his success. It doesn't look like any of the games he releases after 2011, after which he prioritized Steam as a platform, were able to gather more than 200 reviews. And despite mostly positive reception for the first Queen's Wish (although not here), he wasn't able to raise more during his second shot at kickstarter.

As Vogel's career progresses, his lack of innovation and refusal to move beyond clipart level graphics will continue to hamper his chances of success. Of course, I say this as a big admirer: being a successful solodev for so long takes giant balls and even bigger talent. But unfortunately, Vogel never "made it big," so to speak. I think expecting an average of $300k per year over 25 years is very, very optimistic, even if we're talking about gross numbers.

Unless he's still selling thousands of games off Steam, out the back of a car somewhere.

Edit: We also need to consider that at various times, Vogel has hired three other people to work on his games besides him and his wife, possibly more. There's also a ton of other fees and money-sucking things that people don't tell you about when you first start dev.


Sources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs&ab_channel=GDC

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html

 

[MRY]

Your numbers are hard to jibe with what was posted earlier. I don't have time or interest to go through the whole video, but at one point he says "Spiderweb grosses about $200,000 USD a year. This is a constant for us most of our career." Then he has the bonanza years. Even taking just $200k x 30 years is quite wealthy.

Just look at 1997, the year his income was $207k. Median household income in America was $37k, so his income could've supported six middle class households. An associate at a law top-tier firm was making around $70k, so he was making about three times that. A neurosurgeon on average made about $308k, so, working from home without any special degree, he was earning about 2/3 of the most difficult/highest paid medical professional could make. (A family practitioner was making around $115k then.)

So the best way to think of it is that his level of wealth is equivalent to a very successful white collar professional. That is definitely not "middle class."

 

[Tyranicon]

at one point he says "Spiderweb grosses about $200,000 USD a year. This is a constant for us most of our career."

Oh hmm, you're right. I'll take his word for it, since that's all we really have anyways. Unfortunately, you're probably all too aware that $200k gross split three or five ways (let's be generous and ignore Vogel's employees) and after taxes/fees is remarkably less.

So the best way to think of it is that his level of wealth is equivalent to a very successful white collar professional. That is definitely not "middle class."

Please don't think I'm being augmentative, I'm just enjoying this exploration of... money. I would agree that Vogel would probably not be considered middle-class, but unless he made some really good investments, he's probably borderline (IIRC, the upper range of US middle class is $150k income, which shit, by that definition I wasn't middle class either when i was a corporate monkey). Of course, if his revenue scaled with inflation over the years, he would be rich... but that doesn't seemed to have happened.

He was probably living very well in the 90s-00s though.

If you want examples of very, very successful RPG devs, you don't have to go too far, although you probably won't like the answers. Toby Fox of Undertale fame has about $3-4 million, off a single game. Slay the Spire started off with a two-man team and sold a ton of copies. There's also a lot of other small team RPGs that did very well too. I wouldn't say Vogel's near the top when it comes to money-making... or I should say that I hope not.

Also, this got me sad now that I'm poor.

 

[MRY]

Spiderweb
- Vogel doesn't have a publisher or partners, and most of his sales were not through Steam. When we sell a copy of Strangeland for $15, I get $2.45 in pre-tax income (30% to Steam, 30% to WEG, 67% to my teammates). But when Jeff sold a game through his website for $28 or whatever, I think he took in $26 or so. The difference between gross and net for him is neglible.

- Vogel talks about "salaries" but that's just his way of managing taxes. He was paying himself and his wife salaries, and presumably other expenses were things like depreciation of a home "office," utilities, etc. When I talked to a similarly situated developer, I was surprised to hear how much he wrote off and how little he was taxed. Of the $2.45 I get from a $15 sale, probably about half goes to taxes, maybe a bit more.

- So my guess is that the difference between "revenue" and "dollars spent on the Vogel household" is actually very small. That "take home" for me is about 8-10% of the sale review of a copy, but my guess is that his is more like 85%.

- I think official threshold for upper class income has never been above like $180k, and of course a salaried employee 's "take home" at that income level is probably 60%, much worse than Jeff's.

- So basically, in a normal year, he lives like a successful white collar professional, in a great year, he buys a McMansion or whatever.

Other Successful Indies
They aren't comparable. Someone making a ton of money on a runaway Steam success may have more money than Jeff, but they aren't making traditional RPGs and they haven't been doing it for that long. (Derek Yu was a high school classmate of mine, and obviously he's rich enough to eat dolphins while bemoaning global warming, or whatever you do when you're that rich; but he didn't get rich on RPGs.) I really don't think there's any other career quite like Jeff's, but maybe I'm overlooking someone.

 

[MRY]

Maybe the way to put it is: his career is like a marshmallow that has been perfectly roasted over a campfire for 30 years, never hot enough to catch on fire, but the fire never went out, the marshmallow never fell off, no one rushed and ate it too soon, etc.

 

[Tyranicon]

I get eaten alive by taxes too, although as a solodev I can probably share some perspective on my revshare. Very roughly I take in 60% of all my steam sales, and around 40%ish of that is sent to taxes. Of the rest, another 20% is spent paying contractors, marketing, etc. I'm assuming that unless Vogel has some weird tax set up, his probably looks about the same.

in a great year, he buys a McMansion or whatever.

Hah, not in 2022 he's not. Housing prices are crazy.

Maybe the way to put it is: his career is like a marshmallow that has been perfectly roasted over a campfire for 30 years, never hot enough to catch on fire, but the fire never went out, the marshmallow never fell off, no one rushed and ate it too soon, etc.

Yeah, he's definitely a success story. Although a somewhat sad one because I could see him finding runaway success if he had partnered with somebody who made his games look good. But that's just speculation, and honestly Vogel seems very happy with his career and the games he's made.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Vogel's games peaked somewhere around Avernum 3 and declined from there. Just let it die already.

Avernum 3 was just a remake of Exile 3. Avernum 3 also got a remake, do you mean the remake of the remake or the first remake?

I mean the first remake, along with Blades of Avernum. Probably enjoyed that the most. The ones that came after didn't feel as good somehow.

And from Avadon onwards it became pure decline. Except the Geneforge remake, which was, well, a remake. :D

 

[almondblight]

Your numbers are hard to jibe with what was posted earlier. I don't have time or interest to go through the whole video, but at one point he says "Spiderweb grosses about $200,000 USD a year. This is a constant for us most of our career." Then he has the bonanza years. Even taking just $200k x 30 years is quite wealthy.

Here he uses an example where out of $200,000, he (and his wife maybe, he says "we") takes home $100,000. As you said, some of that money might be going back to him in some other form, but he is claiming that he pays out about $40,000 for the art alone.

Worth noting that he also tried his hand at publishing for a time in the 90's, but I don't think that made him much.

The tragedy is that the "artistic freedom" furnished by this unprecedented* success revealed that Vogel didn't have some all-consuming passion to make the greatest RPGs ever.

I always got the impression that Vogel was best at synthesizing other games he played and putting his own twist on them. So the Exile series comes out after the glory days of Ultima, and then the Geneforge series comes out after Fallout and Planescape: Torment (I recall Vogel also saying the 1996 Odyssey RPG was somewhat of an inspiration). Check out this interview that took place when he first started working on Geneforge. He mentions that he's trying to implement a system like Fallouts, and says his favorite RPG's are "Ultima IV and V. Baldur's Gate II. Planescape: Torment."

My guess was that he kept playing mainstream RPG's, but that as the genre developed they stopped being useful sources of inspiration for his games. Though I don't think he's just churning games out for the sake of it. His review of what worked and what didn't in Queen's Wish made it seem like he was quite interested in dissecting his own game, and also made it clear that he still has some sort of vision he'll stick with even if players dislike it.

 

[Tyranicon]

he is claiming that he pays out about $40,000 for the art alone.