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Monk and Druid Skills

nlfortier

Esturia Games
Developer
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
128
I am currently working on a Roguelike / Tactical RPG and am planning to add a couple of additional classes before the final release. The two I am considering are Monk and Druid classes. Before I start on the work of implementing these new classes, I wanted to get the input from folks in this community. What sort of skills would you all link to see for Druid or Monk characters in a turn-based tactical RPG? Are there other character classes that are underrepresented in RPGs that you would like to see instead?
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
5,863
Peasant or commoner.

I always appreciate a class that is horrifically underpowered.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Messages
979
Never really understood the monk class in western fantasy. Druids are usually kind of lame, just affirmative action for celts, really. No one cares about some impoverished wizard fom Gun glaegh' Mo'lach who eats tree bark and talks to animals.

Shapeshifting is kind of cool, though.

More interesting classes:
- tax collector
- stable boy
- gravedigger
- zealot
- card game reviewer
 

Ysaye

Arbiter
Joined
May 27, 2018
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771
Location
Australia
I struggle thinking about adding classes without know what their game design intent is in the larger scheme of things. The only way I can think about this problem is via looking at what you already have and trying to invent something that adds to the gameplay - currently it seems you have: tank, DPS, healer, ranged attacker, AOE attacker, canon fodder creator. From this perspective I think you could consider:

(1) Spatial controller skills (probably assignable to your Druid class) - assuming that characters are on a gameboard, then one option could be to have a class which allows manipulation of the spatial location of both of that unit and of other units on the board. Think the spell in Betrayal at Krondor that allows you to draw enemies to you, or a spell that allows you to move characters back from a location; that could be a really useful utility.
(2) Stunner / muting skills (assignable to your Monk class) - Like Gillius I don't like the idea of a (presumably) eastern martial artist monk in what seems to be a western fantasy, but I was thinking that you could have a character that might be able to do moves that either stun an enemy with only small damage, or be able to disable their skills (such as magic) with their attacks.
 

Angelo85

Arcane
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RPG Druids nowadays are almost synonymous with Shapeshifters, a notion I always felt was kinda weird because it forces them into a certain niche role. So I'm always happy to see games that break the mold in this regard.
Their connection to animals could be expressed in other forms. For instance as "Beastmaster", who is accompanied by trusty animal pet(s). Or as "Summoner" who can call upon beasts. Or even more passively by having spells/skills that can pacify/stun or even charm hostile animals.
 

Humbaba

Arcane
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Aug 12, 2021
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2,939
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SADAT HQ
Please don't do another weeb/chink monk, have it be something cool like a bare knuckle boxer or a muay thai fighter. Implement a grappling system so we can roleplay as a samboist. I want to liver punch an ogre and rnc a dragon.
 

nlfortier

Esturia Games
Developer
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
128
RPG Druids nowadays are almost synonymous with Shapeshifters, a notion I always felt was kinda weird because it forces them into a certain niche role. So I'm always happy to see games that break the mold in this regard.
Their connection to animals could be expressed in other forms. For instance as "Beastmaster", who is accompanied by trusty animal pet(s). Or as "Summoner" who can call upon beasts. Or even more passively by having spells/skills that can pacify/stun or even charm hostile animals.
That was my thought as well. Shape-shifting druids just result in basically playing as the animal form the entire time. I've always liked summons though.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Monk seems pointless and redundant (You already have 3-4 melee classes between Barbarian, Hoplite, Cow, and Priest), unless you are making western monks instead of chinese martial arts monks maybe. As for summoning, both the Necromancer and Elementalist already have a summon, and making a super summoner is prone to causing its own issues as summons are both recurring damage sources and meat shields so making them too good will open up its own problems.

Overall, I would sooner recommend Bard class and Craftsman. If you give the Craftsman the ability to build some items and set up walls and traps it will probably see some use and make for an interesting unorthodox class.
 
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spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,381
The niche for monks is typically light armor, unarmed combat. Go watch some IP man, or a kung fu flick to get some idea.
Since you have priests, I reckon you also have some sort of spirituality built in, so monk could work as a spiritual warrior archetype that isn't a paladin.
A lot of games also give them limited spellcasting and let them use the quarterstaff.
When it comes to stats, emphasis seems to be speed, endurance and intuition.
So, in contrast to something like the barbarian, monk will be a lightly armored warrior that also uses mental stats.

For druids, the typical niche is animal summons, shapeshifting and elemental magic, in contast to priests, the powers are derived from nature, and should serve to further the cause of nature.
This archetype is so tied to nature, they should be a great asset in the wilderness, but heavily stunted in an urban environment,
so we're looking at something like animal lore, plant lore, camouflage in the wilds, etc. Less emphasis on formality and structure.
All in all, I don't think there's much point to have druids as a separate thing, unless the game has some sort of a conflict axis involving nature vs. towns, progress vs. primitivism, etc.
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
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May 14, 2020
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2,476
I'm curious, are you making a vaguely Bronze or Classical age game? Why Hoplite?
In real life, our western monks were jack of all trades. They had to do everything a peasant did plus religious duties. So maybe have them be able to do all sorts of spells and not be useless in combat. Or what Spectre said and have them as a quasi-paladin class.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Spectre, this isn't D&D, the Cow already covers the light armored unarmed combatant niche, and kung fu monks don't belong in a western fantasy setting. If you make them western monks with a bit of spellcasting, they will overlap heavily with the Priest which is also a melee class that is also a spellcaster, except they will be generally worse because they are limited to poor gear choices. You can (and probably will) play Priests as holy warriors, considering their Chant skill buff (which also doubles as an enemy debuff) and gearing options. The only downside is they have slow movement speed and no AoE, but you can invest 2 levelups into agility and they will have non-terrible speed.

As for Druid, it seems to overlap too heavily with the Elementalist, unless you go rather summon-heavy (Elementalist already has a summon) or shapeshift-focused (which leaves you playing in shapeshift mostly).
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
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50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
You haven't posted any ideas for what you actually want for the classes beyond their name.
In what ways will druid differ significantly from ranger?

hint: ranger is not a synonym for archer
Aragorn was the prototypical ranger, not Legolas.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
The core monk skill of relevance should be his ability to copy scrolls. Not necessarily use them, mind you. Many monks couldn't actually read the scrolls. Just copy them. So a monk can copy any scroll regardless of class that the scroll is intended for.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,381
Spectre, this isn't D&D
Cool, but it's not like we got a lot to work with here, with just class names.
Druids being shapeshifters is also a D&D influence, iirc.
When in doubt, start with an archetype and see if you can make it your own.

kung fu monks don't belong in a western fantasy setting.
Well, in this exact flavor, probably not. But it's not like the idea of a spiritual martial artist is completely foreign.
Say, something like a flagelant or that bald guy who is called on by the church to solve problems.
Mind dominating over matter and force of will taken to the ridiculous extreme is what springs to my mind when I'm thinking about this.
And when it comes to unarmed martial arts, just look up pankration. People tend to wank over weeb shite,
but it's not like the idea of becoming a weapon instead of wielding it is something that wasn't tried in the west.

Might be good to have monks somewhat related to priests, part of the same organization but with different responsibilities.
Priests answer the higher calling, monks are more down to earth. The former chant and preach, the latter do manual labor and don't shy away from a beating.

As for Druid, it seems to overlap too heavily with the Elementalist
The point, I think, is to tie the spells with natural phenomena, so lightning strikes, gusts of wind, pouring rain are all fair game.
Fire would be tricky to justify (though you could argue that wildfires are something that's natural), so elementalists can have that.
Other than this, the spells could focus on manipulating all sorts of plant life. Have a tree grow big, make it grow thorns then animate it.
Poison is another thing that could set the druid apart from other spellcasters.

If you don't want anything D&D inspired, try Asterix. The druid would then be in charge of preparing all kinds of magical brews.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Norfleet, there are no scrolls in this game.

Spectre, Druids being shapeshifters has roots in Celtic myth, but Druids as categorical nature-worshipers and protect-the-balance types is more of a D&D thing. Asterix version of Druid would be interesting.
 

nlfortier

Esturia Games
Developer
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
128
Monk seems pointless and redundant (You already have 3-4 melee classes between Barbarian, Hoplite, Cow, and Priest), unless you are making western monks instead of chinese martial arts monks maybe. As for summoning, both the Necromancer and Elementalist already have a summon, and making a super summoner is prone to causing its own issues as summons are both recurring damage sources and meat shields so making them too good will open up its own problems.

Overall, I would sooner recommend Bard class and Craftsman. If you give the Craftsman the ability to build some items and set up walls and traps it will probably see some use and make for an interesting unorthodox class.

The point about monks being a redundant melee character is fair. I was thinking more eastern style monks like final fantasy tactics. So healing skills, some minor ranged magic, along with unarmed combat ability. I like the idea of a bard class as I really don't have any classes with a primary focus on buffs and debuffs.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,381
nlfortier I am always a fan of classes in ADOM, so if you're looking for inspiration, check this out:
https://ancardia.fandom.com/wiki/Classes
There's a lot of them, and while there's some overlap (because some classes are hybrids), each has its niche and the selection doesn't feel redundant.
A different skill package is enough to differentiate

Spectre, Druids being shapeshifters has roots in Celtic myth, but Druids as categorical nature-worshipers and protect-the-balance types is more of a D&D thing. Asterix version of Druid would be interesting.
Yep, balance and neutrality is definitely a D&D thing, because it's rooted in the system's cosmology. T
hough I think the nature vs. civilization conflict can be traced back to Roman times - Gallic wars and in Brittania.
The question of shapeshifting is interesting, cause it is very popular in primitive cultures where the shaman was believed to spy on people and steal their secrets through the eyes of their familiar.
At some point it became blurred. Was he just looking through the eyes, or was he actually turning into that animal?

A similar blurring can be seen in cultures with rooted belief that wearing animal skin and eating animal flesh would give a warrior their power,
which is a nice spin to put on barbarians and berserkers if one wants to break out of the D&D mold.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Aug 3, 2019
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London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Monks should use "qi" (chi - or in other cultural contexts "pneuma" or "prana" or "the holy spirit"), and the quick and dirty way of implementing that would be to have the damage stat being CON instead of STR. They should also veer towards blunt weapons (unarmed, staffs, clubs, although ackshually historically the Shaolin monks became famous for their spear skills). They should also be incredibly persuasive, basically draining the opponent of their will to contend (so mental CC - demoralization, repentance, etc.) - something like, the monk says some words and the opponent revises their life, becomes enlightened, ceases to be flagged for combat and wanders off the battlefield, IOW an immobilization with a timer that ends in their withdrawal, but if their ruminations are interrupted by a stray shot they return to battle:)

Druids are, as has been mentioned, a tricky thing to implement unless you have some substantial part of the game out in nature, or there's some relevance to the idea of protecting nature in the game's adventure - but it would be the obvious (plant traps, plant poisons, commanding animals, elemental magic, etc.) plus shapeshifting. I would argue that Druids should also be able to induce illusions and hallucinations (shrooms, natch :) ), and in fact if you wanted to go in more of a low magic direction, the animal shapeshift could be pitched as an illusion/hallucination in that way, and induce fear more than be a great physical attack.
 
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AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,728
The monk class does not belong in RPGs unless the game is in a fantasy far east setting.

Druids would be cool if their powers were more dependent on the fighting environment. For example, summoning rats in a castle, or worms and bugs to decay undead in a crypt, animating trees on the battlefield, calling down blizzards or lightning in open fields, etc... but usually they feel like just half-way between a wizard and a priest plus a transformation gimmick. I guess Entangle is the main standard ability I would expect from the class.
 

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