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How would you go about making a 2D Action RPG?

Zanzoken

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Dec 16, 2014
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Imagine the goal is something like an old SNES Zelda clone, but with movement and world design that isn't so blocky and angular and can incorporate more verticality.

Would you need to do it in isometric or could it work as a regular 2D game?

Something similar to this perhaps, but with characters that move fluidly in 360 degrees (instead of just 4 or 8 directions) and environments that look more organic and aren't just straight lines / square tiles.

 
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gaussgunner

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Yeah, topdown 2D (A)RPGs are coming back into vogue. Some use a direct overhead view but most are drawn in forced perspective (from the south as opposed to southeast). It looks almost as good as iso without all the hassles.
 

Zanzoken

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Dec 16, 2014
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What if it was a shameless ripoff spiritual successor to Gothic? With good KB&M controls, no Xbawx controller required.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

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Apr 18, 2016
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761
Shaun is pretty great, but there are tons of tutorials like this. That's for literally learning how to make games or whatever. If you want to know how to design them, that's harder
 

CanadianCorndog

Learned
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Feb 2, 2021
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147
Verticality + 360 degree movement + non-tiled environments = 3D game
Look at Amid Evil for a game that does verticality amazingly well.
 

bionicman

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May 31, 2019
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Imagine the goal is something like an old SNES Zelda clone, but with movement and world design that isn't so blocky and angular and can incorporate more verticality.
If you're dealing with 2d and want to have an element of verticality you're looking for platformer perspective and movement.
If you want less blocky movement and world, you'll have to develop (or find/use) some intricate collision system, there's a reason a lot of games are implemented with blocky movement and world design (it's way more difficult to do otherwise especially cause of AI and pathfinding... how do you make the AI navigate these complex spaces?).

Something similar to this perhaps, but with characters that move fluidly in 360 degrees (instead of just 4 or 8 directions) and environments that look more organic and aren't just straight lines / square tiles.
Someone in the thread already suggested this, but the best perspective which works with this is the Hotline-Miamiesque perspective and movement. But then you lose the element of verticality.

In my opinion, the game you'd like to make is best made in a 3d engine, and then if you really want a 2d aesthetic, you could make it seem 2d by having the camera always be fixed. Also, modern engines like Unity have their own sophisticated systems that can help you with collision and AI pathfinding (when it comes to 360 degree movement), although how good are those systems, I don't know, since I myself prefer to work with a grid and no verticality whatsoever.
 
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Zanzoken

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In my opinion, the game you'd like to make is best made in a 3d engine, and then if you really want a 2d aesthetic, you could make it seem 2d by having the camera always be fixed.

Apparently this is pretty common. I was reading the other day and learned that both Enter the Gungeon and Hollow Knight were actually made in 3D. I'm sure there are others too.

 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Hire a couple underpaid devs and acquire some slaves interns that will be rewarded with experience.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, first begin with having some 2D artists. That is 80% of the work right there :-P.

Beyond that it is just a matter of splatting sprites together: a background layer for the base tilemap and decals on top of it, then an object layer above it where stuff you collide/pickup/interact exist and perhaps an overlay layer for stuff above your head (tree leaves, sun beams, etc). Collision can be very simple by spliting the object layer into a grid of "solid/empty" cells and then for each cell checking if there is any non-transparent pixel of an object on it. Then when doing movement, etc you can figure out the cells the objects overlap with and check if any is solid (and if so to not allow that motion - do it separately for X and Y axis to get smooth-ish movement).

Once you have a character moving around you can start doing the RPG stuff but when it comes to combat as far as calculations etc go, it doesn't matter if it is 2D or 3D since it is largely about "did X hit Y" and the main difference is how to answer that question (ie. collision). In theory you can do most of the combat stuff in Excel or whatever :-P
 

J1M

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May 14, 2008
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For any real-time game the most important element is how it feels to play. The timing and responsiveness of actions. So basically you make that part fun in a gray box first with the primary items/actions. Then you worry about the rest.
 

Zanzoken

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What are some alternative ways to design this type of combat that don't involve dodge rolling?

It's such an overused mechanic nowadays... every game people just spam dodge, dodge, dodge.
 

tky

Literate
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Apr 22, 2022
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What are some alternative ways to design this type of combat that don't involve dodge rolling?

It's such an overused mechanic nowadays... every game people just spam dodge, dodge, dodge.

Jumping, dashing, block and/or parry comes to mind.
 

Magitex

Educated
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Aug 2, 2017
Messages
62
There's a few options off the top of my head:

Parry/deflection of an attack.
Directly blocking attacks.
Shields that absorb certain types or amounts of damage, including equipment like armor as well as % chance to automatically dodge/reduce hits using RPG stats etc
Enemies/projectiles which are slow enough that you can actively avoid hits using normal movement.
Damage which debilitates the players abilities instead of dealing HP damage, weakening you to specific attacks. Compounding debuffs from enemies where you need to think about which order you engage threats to minimize damage rather than outright deflect it.
Actively stunning your enemies, or otherwise preventing them from attacking you, i.e forcing them out of range or disarming them.

There's a lot more I think but these are some of the common ones, I'd have to boot some games up to remember half of them.. games before the great dodge mechanic of 202x become so mainstream I mean.
 

J1M

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May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
What are some alternative ways to design this type of combat that don't involve dodge rolling?

It's such an overused mechanic nowadays... every game people just spam dodge, dodge, dodge.
I've always found it funny that dodge rolling has no activation time and almost no recovery time in those Souls games when people praise the fact that a sword takes four seconds to swing. Seems internally inconsistent and that there's likely a subtle solution involving preserving the immunity frames but making the usage consistent with other animations.

Some better alternatives:

The early Zelda games allowed you to block attacks coming from one direction automatically as long as you weren't attacking.

Ikaruga let the player toggle their state so that with the correct timing you could absorb any enemy attack as a powerup instead of taking damage. (All attacks were color-coded red or blue.)

The Samurai in Final Fantasy XI had an ability with a moderate cooldown called Third Eye that guaranteed evasion of the next enemy attack.

You could treat health bar level as something that is animated to over time rather than something instantly applied AND have most enemies grant health on defeat. This would create a situation where sustaining damage could be fatal (but not until several seconds after taking the hit), and quickly defeating the enemy restores your health enough that the encounter is no longer fatal.

Use an armor and/or shield system with breakpoints such that the maximum amount of damage a hit can do is the amount of armor/shield you have remaining. This guarantees that as long as the player has some health, armor, and shield even the strongest attack in the game would require three hits to be fatal. While players can be concerned about having low health, the situation doesn't feel helpless if they are able to recover a little bit of armor/shield because they have a reliable buffer.

Controversial opinion: timed parry button results in an implementation that is basically a quick-time event or something players can ignore.
 
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Zanzoken

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Dec 16, 2014
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Thanks for the replies. I don't hate the idea of dodge rolling entirely, but I just don't want it to be so dominant as it is in most action games nowadays.

I would also tie it to a class or ability tree, so if you want a dodgy character then you have to invest points in it, which necessarily implies sacrificing your character's ability to be good at other things.
 

J1M

Arcane
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May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
May I suggest that instead of a vertical progression tree you opt for horizontal progression? For example, you unlock dodge, then you unlock other defensives that you can "equip" instead of dodge. A point-buy system by definition means that players don't get to play with most of the abilities you've created. (Not many are likely to replay a game over and over.)
 

Zanzoken

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
3,559
May I suggest that instead of a vertical progression tree you opt for horizontal progression? For example, you unlock dodge, then you unlock other defensives that you can "equip" instead of dodge. A point-buy system by definition means that players don't get to play with most of the abilities you've created. (Not many are likely to replay a game over and over.)

Maybe. However one of my design considerations is to make the character perform quite differently depending on your build. A lot of action RPGs don't do that... even if there are some nominal "RPG elements" you always end up as a fighter-mage-thief dodge rolling your way to victory.

A good example of what I'd like to achieve is Gothic, where as your weapon skills increase, the animations actually change to reflect that. Being a low-level goof with no skill doesn't just mean you do shit damage or whatever... your character is actually visibly awkward and inept with the weapon. It's a big moment when you unlock that first set of animations and can actually swing your sword like you halfway know what you are doing, and I love that sense of character progression.

Then again, I'm also trying to cut down on the number of weapons, abilities, etc to reduce the art and animation workload to something that could be completed in a reasonable amount of time by one person + store assets. I think this can be done without sacrificing the quality of the game, but idk.

An easy example I think of in this area is Star Wars. The main fights happen between people using one weapon (swords) and only a small handful of magic abilities (enhanced mobility and acrobatics, telekinesis, and the bad guys can use lightning). And if you've ever played the Force Unleashed games you'll know that format can translate well to a video game.

Not that I want to blatantly rip off Star Wars (although I might :)) but it shows that even with a minimal number of inputs, you can still create exciting action. I think as long as it doesn't overstay its welcome (i.e. forcing you to fight hordes of trash mobs) it can be effective.

My goal for the game isn't for it to be super combat-intensive anyway... there will be fighting obviously, but there will also be survival mechanics, exploration, and a strong story hook to (hopefully) keep the Player wanting to press forward.
 

Higher Animal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
1,854
I think you’re on the right track. There is a 2d shmup for the genesis that just has a few changes to the mechanics of shooters but it changes the play style dramatically and it’s very strategic. It’s called hellfire. Simple =good.
 

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