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Dune: Spice Wars - 4X/RTS from Wartales developers

Readher

Savant
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
631
Location
Poland
Closest thing I can think of is a very simplified version of Endless Legend.
Can you elaborate on this? Which aspects you find simplified?


Only 4 or 5 types of military units per faction.

Towns can only have like 6 or so buildings each, out of a very limited selection and 4 military units (militia as they're called). These units can only defend and you can't control them directly. You can only build proper armies at your capital.

Tech tree has about 30 technologies (if that). And they only give minor bonuses.

Resources instead of the civ/endless model where they are per hex, in this game are only generated by the town center and buildings around it, placement of the buildings don't matter. Each region has only 1 special resource and it's just a modifier, eg. +50% to plasticrete production in the region etc. One of the resources is spice. It's not in every region and in fact is quite rare. Maybe every 5th or 6th region will have spice.

Etc. Very similar gameplay-wise but less of everything.
Some of stuff here is wrong.

Not every region has a resource. Some do and will either boost production of a certain resource (plastic, fuel cells), or allow a special building to be placed. For example, rare materials allows you to build a solari-producing building, which is otherwise impossible to raise, and naturally spice allows for fefinery. Every village has its own bonus (sometimes it's passive income like +3 solari, sometimes it's bonus XP to units fighting in the village's region, sometimes it's bonus to output of a certain resource). On top of that, there are also special regions that give bonus to Hegemony and another bonus (resource output, special building construction like the iceberg).

You're saying there's a limited selection of buildings, but there's like 18 of them. You can also build special buildings in your main base after reaching 2k Hegemony, and completing districts in a certain way nets you various bonuses.

Milita slots vary by faction, technology, advisors, etc. Harkonnens can get up to 6 slots iirc.

As for tech, the bonuses look small, but they're huge actually. Stuff like Hegemony for every village producing water is insane if you're economy focused and can afford placing windmills everywhere. Plus tech unlocks the special buildings for your base which can give huge boosts to your win condition as well.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
18,697
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You're saying there's a limited selection of buildings, but there's like 18 of them. You can also build special buildings in your main base after reaching 2k Hegemony, and completing districts in a certain way nets you various bonuses.

Yeah, Civilization and EL type games have hundreds. How is 18 not a limited selection?
 

Readher

Savant
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
631
Location
Poland
You're saying there's a limited selection of buildings, but there's like 18 of them. You can also build special buildings in your main base after reaching 2k Hegemony, and completing districts in a certain way nets you various bonuses.

Yeah, Civilization and EL type games have hundreds. How is 18 not a limited selection?
I don't play those games so I wouldn't know. This is supposed to be 4X and RTS mix, so 18 (plus the main base ones) seems like a lot for an RTS to me.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
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Messages
18,697
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You're saying there's a limited selection of buildings, but there's like 18 of them. You can also build special buildings in your main base after reaching 2k Hegemony, and completing districts in a certain way nets you various bonuses.

Yeah, Civilization and EL type games have hundreds. How is 18 not a limited selection?
I don't play those games so I wouldn't know. This is supposed to be 4X and RTS mix, so 18 (plus the main base ones) seems like a lot for an RTS to me.
It's not an RTS.

Like not even remotely.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
Emperor Battle for Dune had battles outside Dune but there wasn't Spice there of course so other resources make sense. But looking for plastwhatever and Manpower in a freaking desert planet make no sense: just harvest Spice and take those resources from outside! Water as resources Is ok because It evaporates (difficult to stockpile) and represent supply.

You're saying there's a limited selection of buildings, but there's like 18 of them. You can also build special buildings in your main base after reaching 2k Hegemony, and completing districts in a certain way nets you various bonuses.

Yeah, Civilization and EL type games have hundreds. How is 18 not a limited selection?
I don't play those games so I wouldn't know. This is supposed to be 4X and RTS mix, so 18 (plus the main base ones) seems like a lot for an RTS to me.
It's not an RTS.

Like not even remotely.
Well battles are so long that remind me more hearts of iron and the Dune 1 game.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,990
So how is the Early Access version, what is missing compared to release? (if that is known)
And how does it run, does it need some strong PC or can it run on older ones as well?
 

Readher

Savant
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
631
Location
Poland
So how is the Early Access version, what is missing compared to release? (if that is known)
And how does it run, does it need some strong PC or can it run on older ones as well?
It's missing multiplayer and the 5th faction. Maybe camapaign as well? I don't remember if the game's supposed to have one. Otherwise it's feature-complete, though the devs said they might add more stuff based on feedback.

It runs pretty well on my PC. R7 3700X and RX 580.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
Some things feel the game rushed.
You have plascrete upkeep because.... civilization and other 4x use It, while you don't use plascrete to repair a damaged Building.
Endless Legend had a faction that don't use food and another that don't use science. Here Fremen go Landsraad and pay Imperial taxes.....there are very few difference among factions on the core rules. I hope if they add Corrino they won't pay the taxes.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,990
Two major complaints I have seen so far are:
1. Rebellions seem to happen too often and take over your regions too easy ignoring local militia. People complain they are playing well, they got resources, troops and then rebellions happen and they lose
2. Sandworms force you to micro your harvesters and troops too much making it feel less like 4x.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,773
You have plascrete upkeep because.... civilization and other 4x use It, while you don't use plascrete to repair a damaged Building.
You have plascrete upkeep, because it limits the rate you can build at and the lack of which causes other issues (such as manpower).

Endless Legend had a faction that don't use food and another that don't use science. Here Fremen go Landsraad and pay Imperial taxes.....there are very few difference among factions on the core rules. I hope if they add Corrino they won't pay the taxes.
Fremen don't pay Imperial Tax, they pay Spacing Guild Bribe (and Smugglers pay Imperial Bribe). The big difference for the Fremen is they don't have to worry about worms (so they can extract spice more steadly), but they have to pay way more early in the game (almost twice as much as the other factions). Not sure if there is a difference in penalties between the Fremen and the other factions if you do miss payments though.

Also, Fremen don't have any seats in the Landsraad, they use influence instead of regular votes.

That said, I do agree this game is the perfect case of "good idea, flawed execution". You could easily tweak a lot of mechanics and end up with a much better version. Take spice, for example - this should work as the universal currency that allows you to buy literally any other resource. However, in the current version spice is not as valuable: you turn it into gold or exchange for something else trading with other factions (and you don't get good exchange rate for it, most of the time!), but you don't really have an incentive to always pursue it, as long as you have enough stockpiles to pay off the Imperium/Spacing Guild. There are resources that end up being way more valuable instead - such as water, manpower or authority that you can't trade for (which doesn't really make sense, because spice alone should be able to afford you at least 2 out of the 3 aforementioned resources).

So it is not a bad game, but I doubt they have enough guts to polish it enough to dramatically change the way it plays right now. It has some good concepts, but it doesn't go far enough with them to really shine and some other concepts are questionable at best (the spice is fixed to a specific region?! The spice is not the most valuable substance in the game?!). As a result I don't really recommend it at the moment. And I say that as a big Dune fan.
 
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ArchAngel

Arcane
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Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,990
In a trading/intrigue game I could see Spice being only valuable good here but it is a war game and things like water are extreme valuable when you got troops that need to move around and fight.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,773
In a trading/intrigue game I could see Spice being only valuable good here but it is a war game and things like water are extreme valuable when you got troops that need to move around and fight.
My point is that spice should be valuable enough to afford you water and such. Instead in Dune: Spice Wars some resources are way more precious than the titular spice.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
Also what about Manpower? Harkonnen have their own Planet with their slave market but they need recruiting offices in a desert planet........
 

ELEXmakesMeHard

Learned
Joined
Jun 19, 2021
Messages
807
Giving this a try. It makes my PC work much harder than any other game I've played, including Elden Ring. The PC makes more noise than I've ever heard it make before, and after an hour my office has started feeling like a sauna. Taking a break to cool down and look for optimization tips.

Edit: Decided to refund. Devs can get away with gender-bedning & race-bending, or with horrible optimization, but not both. :M
 
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Catacombs

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Aug 10, 2017
Messages
5,940
Giving this a try. It makes my PC work much harder than any other game I've played, including Elden Ring. The PC makes more noise than I've ever heard it make before, and after an hour my office has started feeling like a sauna. Taking a break to cool down and look for optimization tips.

Edit: Decided to refund. Devs can get away with gender-bedning & race-bending, or with horrible optimization, but not both. :M
That's what you get with Early Access.
 

Jack Of Owls

Arcane
Joined
May 23, 2014
Messages
4,322
Location
Massachusettes
Giving this a try. It makes my PC work much harder than any other game I've played, including Elden Ring. The PC makes more noise than I've ever heard it make before, and after an hour my office has started feeling like a sauna. Taking a break to cool down and look for optimization tips.

Edit: Decided to refund. Devs can get away with gender-bedning & race-bending, or with horrible optimization, but not both. :M

I think there was a later Civilization game in early release that did the same thing - caused CPUs to overheat and run with far greater utilization than they needed to. I wonder if they ever fixed that or it's just piss poor coding.
 

zapotec

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
1,498
Hmm in Dune 2 i remember buildings being damaged by a sort of erosion caused by the wind / sand. Could be that the plastthing represent that?
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
Hmm in Dune 2 i remember buildings being damaged by a sort of erosion caused by the wind / sand. Could be that the plastthing represent that?
Yes, but in Dune 2 they never go down half hp and you spend more repairing attacked buildings...Here you spend the same for a Building in front lines and a building far from combat because....Civs do that.
 

Riel

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
1,375
Location
Itaca
looking for plastwhatever and Manpower in a freaking desert planet make no sense: just harvest Spice and take those resources from outside! Water as resources Is ok because It evaporates (difficult to stockpile) and represent supply.

This.

The idea of a 4X in a Dune game goes against the setting in an impossible to overcome way. Actually the classic Dune II was also totally silly, but that didn't prevent it being a great game for its time. The same may or may not be true for this game... probably not, but bitching about inconsistencies between lore and game mechanics is pointless... the very game concept is inconsistent with the lore.
 

Readher

Savant
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
631
Location
Poland
In a trading/intrigue game I could see Spice being only valuable good here but it is a war game and things like water are extreme valuable when you got troops that need to move around and fight.
My point is that spice should be valuable enough to afford you water and such. Instead in Dune: Spice Wars some resources are way more precious than the titular spice.
Spice is extremely valuable because you can exchange it for Solari, and 10k Solari gets you 500 Hegemony via CHOAM shares. When I played Harkonnens I had 4k daily income while suppressing only some of my villages. It was pretty much a "sudden death" scenario and if it were MP, I'd have everyone ganging up on me immediately.

As for water, you can't trade it because it's a flat value that doesn't stockpile.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,773
Spice is extremely valuable because you can exchange it for Solari, and 10k Solari gets you 500 Hegemony via CHOAM shares. When I played Harkonnens I had 4k daily income while suppressing only some of my villages. It was pretty much a "sudden death" scenario and if it were MP, I'd have everyone ganging up on me immediately.
You're missing the point - yes, you can buy CHOAM shares with it, but other than that spice is a very underwhelming resource, even when trading spice for something else with the other factions, because you actually can't get much for it. If anything intel seems to be more valuable (for the AI at least) as trading resource at all times. And it gives you access to fun stuff too.

As for water, you can't trade it because it's a flat value that doesn't stockpile.
I understand how the mechanic works. I question the player's inability to buy water (and manpower). If you own the spice, you should be able to buy it.

Edit:

Fun fact - according to Steam discussion the Polish version of the game wasn't supposed to be as cheap as it was. I checked it and it looks like the price has increased by 8,60 euro (from 15,05 to 23,65). Now Poland is not ranked on the level of Russia but Japan, price-wise.
 
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Readher

Savant
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
631
Location
Poland
Spice is extremely valuable because you can exchange it for Solari, and 10k Solari gets you 500 Hegemony via CHOAM shares. When I played Harkonnens I had 4k daily income while suppressing only some of my villages. It was pretty much a "sudden death" scenario and if it were MP, I'd have everyone ganging up on me immediately.
You're missing the point - yes, you can buy CHOAM shares with it, but other than that spice is a very underwhelming resource, even when trading spice for something else with the other factions, because you actually can't get much for it. If anything intel seems to be more valuable (for the AI at least) as trading resource at all times. And it gives you access to fun stuff too.

As for water, you can't trade it because it's a flat value that doesn't stockpile.
I understand how the mechanic works. I question the player's inability to buy water (and manpower). If you own the spice, you should be able to buy it.

Edit:

Fun fact - according to Steam discussion the Polish version of the game wasn't supposed to be as cheap as it was. I checked it and it looks like the price has increased by 8,60 euro (from 15,05 to 23,65). Now Poland is not ranked on the level of Russia but Japan, price-wise.
Yeah, the price was kind of too good to be true (70 PLN, now 110). I already got it so whatever. Shiro must be unlucky with pricing, they priced Wartales at 25 PLN instead of 125 on Gamersgate too. Bought it before they corrected it. Though in case of Dune it's likely Funcom who's in charge of prices.
 

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