Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why is magic so strong in most RPGs?

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,939
Location
SADAT HQ
Magic is a violation of physical laws. "

No it isn't, that's Arcanum bullshit. Magic is Magic, any attempt to to add some bullshit pseudoscientific explanation results in nothing but bad science fiction. Magic is supposed to be stronger than conventional combat because a guy wielding the incomprehensible might of the arcane should not under any circumstance play second fiddle to some monkey with an elaborate stick.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Magic is Magic, any attempt to to add some bullshit pseudoscientific explanation results in nothing but bad science fiction.
true
because a guy wielding the incomprehensible might of the arcane should not under any circumstance play second fiddle to some monkey with an elaborate stick.
unless its a low magic setting tho

if it takes 5 hours of ritual to cause a thunderbolt to happen then the priest-wizard should probably take some fencing lessons on the side
 

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,939
Location
SADAT HQ
unless its a low magic setting tho

if it takes 5 hours of ritual to cause a thunderbolt to happen then the priest-wizard should probably take some fencing lessons on the side

Steel isn't strong boy. Flesh is stronger!



Seriously though idk, you could just as well argue that in a low magic setting where wizards are rare as it is, they would make up for their low numbers with sheer power. Especially since there probably wouldn't be too many magic countermeasures a rando non-caster could throw at them either.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Seriously though idk, you could just as well argue that in a low magic setting where wizards are rare as it is, they would make up for their low numbers with sheer power.
i mean. that's sideways. all i mean is that you can have a setting where magic is there, perhaps even accessible in some fashion, but not 'on demand'. wizards can't make up for their low numbers with sheer power if said power doesn't exist.
 

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,939
Location
SADAT HQ
i mean. that's sideways.
What did he mean by this

all i mean is that you can have a setting where magic is there, perhaps even accessible in some fashion, but not 'on demand'. wizards can't 'make up' for their low numbers with sheer power if said power doesn't exist.
Yes, and I could just as well have a setting where wizards could very definitely compensate for their numbers with firepower. You see what I'm getting at?
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Honestly I suspect the major issue to be that devs sort of turn off their imagination when it comes to designing non-mages and don't pay a lot of attention to game balance either and then sort of justify it all with "It's magic, it's supposed to be awesome!" Cargo cult design is a real problem in RPGs and it's far too common that while devs sit there praising how innovative their take is, they are fundamentally doing the same things without really knowing why they do it or why they are worth doing. There's something comfortable in designing the familiar, I guess.

There is some truth to the notion that mages are often intended as humanoid artillery, but then the game needs to be balanced accordingly so they actually have that artillery role with weaknesses that are appropriately exploitable. Many games are happy enough to let mages cast big spells one after the other and be strong enough sources of consistent ranged damage to make archers feel irrelevant and give them weak defenses that they can easily bolster and sidestep with magic and are often also irrelevant on top of that because they're happy to have the guy in a suit of armor somehow end up being the one who gets attacked by everything (threat/aggro mechanics are a terrible mistake - they virtually guarantee your enemies will behave stupidly, which makes a lot of combat nowhere near as deep or interesting as it ought to be) since they're copying that horrible idea off of WoW.

If ultimately it's just being treated as a cheap power fantasy where becoming stupidly powerful is part of the package, then you need to look at why warrior type don't get anything cool themselves, and here the common problem is probably just that most devs don't even really have an idea of what to copy. It's easy enough to copy 50+ spells that you've already seen in other fantasy games for mages. But for warriors, rogues, etc., most often all people can think of is autoattacking and abilities that are like just autoattacks with minor special effects on top. A lot of fantasy RPG designers came from Dungeons & Dragons pen & paper backgrounds and that's what D&D did. In the rogue's case the situation is the same but you just give them a really half-baked stealth mechanic and some perks to attacking from behind. This is basically what happened to Dragon Age: Origins. In reality you need a deeper understanding of gameplay in order to come up with a good arsenal of abilities and options for a warrior that feel interesting and varied, but exercising genuine understanding, imagination, and problem solving is a much bigger problem for most designers than you'd think.

I guess a good question is: Does anyone know any good fantasy RPGs that don't really have this problem?
 
Last edited:

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I guess a good question is: Does anyone know any good fantasy RPGs that don't really have this problem?
probably action rpgs. which adds to your initial point:
devs sort of turn off their imagination when it comes to designing non-mages
if you're playing a physics based game or a beat 'em up with mages and fighters in it, you're already half way out of the cargo cult
 

Pulse

Educated
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
82
Honestly I suspect the major issue to be that devs sort of turn off their imagination when it comes to designing non-mages and don't pay a lot of attention to game balance either and then sort of justify it all with "It's magic, it's supposed to be awesome!" Cargo cult design is a real problem in RPGs and it's far too common that while devs sit there praising how innovative their take is, they are fundamentally doing the same things without really knowing why they do it or why they are worth doing. There's something comfortable in designing the familiar, I guess.

There is some truth to the notion that mages are often intended as humanoid artillery, but then the game needs to be balanced accordingly so they actually have that artillery role with weaknesses that are appropriately exploitable. Many games are happy enough to let mages cast big spells one after the other and be strong enough sources of consistent ranged damage to make archers feel irrelevant and give them weak defenses that they can easily sidestep with magic and are also often irrelevant because they're happy to have the guy in a suit of armor somehow end up being the one who gets attacked by everything (threat/aggro mechanics are a terrible mistake - they virtually guarantee your enemies will behave stupidly, which makes a lot of combat nowhere near as deep or interesting as it ought to be) since they're copying that horrible idea off of WoW.

If ultimately it's just being treated as a cheap power fantasy where becoming stupidly powerful is part of the package, then you need to look at why warrior type don't get anything cool themselves, and here the common problem is probably just that most devs don't even really have an idea of what to copy. It's easy enough to copy 50+ spells that you've already seen in other fantasy games for mages. But for warriors, rogues, etc., most often all people can think of is autoattacking and abilities that are like just autoattacks with minor special effects on top. A lot of fantasy RPG designers came from Dungeons & Dragons pen & paper backgrounds and that's what D&D did. In the rogue's case the situation is the same but you just give them a really half-baked stealth mechanic and some perks to attacking from behind. This is basically what happened to Dragon Age: Origins. In reality you need a deeper understanding of gameplay in order to come up with a good arsenal of abilities and options for a warrior that feel interesting and varied, but exercising genuine understanding, imagination, and problem solving is a much bigger problem for most designers than you'd think.

I guess a good question is: Does anyone know any good fantasy RPGs that don't really have this problem?




That's a good point, I think it does relate to melee classes and the fact that they are relatively simple compared to spellcasters. As an example in Baldur's Gate games, you can be extremely overpowered as a mage but there are still enemies immune to Time Stop cheese etc. Moreover, you have low hp and some enemies can still oneshot you. So as a mage you still have to be strategic and plan your spells, spell order etc.

In most games melee classes have few abilities, making them simple. If they became super strong they would become faceroll. One step in the right direction would be to add some interesting skills to melee classes perhaps? Or give them special items they can use while in combat. This way it would increase the complexity at least.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,472
Location
Frostfell
fireball is stronker :evocation rules

Skull Trap >>>> Fireball

guy wielding the incomprehensible might of the arcane should not under any circumstance play second fiddle to some monkey with an elaborate stick.

What about magic VS tech? Like fireball VS grenade launcher?

they would make up for their low numbers with sheer power. Especially since there probably wouldn't be too many magic countermeasures a rando non-caster could throw at them either.

Conan is a very low magical setting yet casters are terrifying enemies.

Also, we have nukes. Fireballs are unnecessary.

Nukes = Gigantic fireballs.

But a question. Why does the gnome magical guild waste time with half orcs slaves, if you could use golems?
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,509
Location
The Present
But a question. Why does the gnome magical guild waste time with half orcs slaves, if you could use golems?

Golems don't grow on trees. They cost money. When have you met a gnome that liked spending money?

The principles of decline were rooted in two basis:
  1. Envy & inadequacy of non-casters
  2. Many people griped about the action dichotomy of 98% slings/crossbows, 2% spells.
If you give wizards more spells you're still dealing with issue #1. So the solution was to make the wizard's spells mechanically equivalent to crossbows, but with a flashy animation. The class has been able to retain some nuance, but most often a neutered shell of its proper and glorious status from games like Baldur's Gate 2.

The solution is to make magic hyper-powerful, but proportionately risky. If a player has a significant % chance of a spell ending in disaster, then the player will self regulate. Wild magic in BG2 was a good example of this (contingency exploits aside). Games really need to place in risk/reward mechanics to return magic to it's rightful place. There is a wealth of RPG material to learn from on the matter.
 
Last edited:

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Nukes = Gigantic fireballs.

But a question. Why does the gnome magical guild waste time with half orcs slaves, if you could use golems?
The breeding program is incredibly important. Golems also tend to ruin Turnip harvests where half-orc slaves do not.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
12,870
Location
Eastern block
tbh i completely disagree

physical might beats magic in most RPGs and RPG-like games


Nwn (3.5 ED) - weapon master with devastating critical shits on spellcasters
Heroes 3 - Might heroes develop much better than Magi ones
KotOR - Guardian shits on Consular
Diablo 2 - Fanaticism zeal pala shits on Sorc/Druid/Necro
Bloodlines - Gangrel shits on Tremere
etc etc
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,472
Location
Frostfell
Nwn (3.5 ED) - weapon master with devastating critical shits on spellcasters


DPS is not everything. A mage in nwn1 can stop the time and then, throw black tentacles, summons and multiple OHK SPELLS which can end your life in one failed save.

Diablo 2 - Fanaticism zeal pala shits on Sorc/Druid/Necro

Only with end game gear. Necro can beat hell baal naked.

Bloodlines - Gangrel shits on Tremere
etc etc

tremere can transform gangrel into a blood grenade and OHKill him.

And most OP P&P Tremere spells arent in the game. LURE of flames and path of conjuration, for eg.

Fireball of course, it needs no ammo.

you need scrolls or a memorization. Also, anyone can fire a GL, but a fireball takes some time of study and practice.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Re: the OP

"Magic" as a concept implies transgressing the boundaries of what is humanly possible or comprehensible. In the popular recent fantasy genre take on the concept it's also a power fantasy - and this is the source from which the typical representation of "magic" in video games is clearly derived.

A world in which you can be Walter, the underwhelming wizard, whose power is absolutely unremarkable and means fe. lighting a cigarette without needing a lighter, is not exactly a power fantasy. One could argue that if you strip down magic from it's transgressive OP-ness, it's "magic" in name only; completely mundane results achieved through unusual means. Like playing guitar proficiently with your feet. Definitely interesting but it's just something entirely different.

That's one aspect of it. Other aspect, I guess, is on one hand player expectations and on the other creative laziness. You know, as a mage you want to be able to cast fireballs. Therefore most games give you fireballs.

The concept that wizards start as weak nerds but develop into powerhouses has been around probably even before DnD refined it, and it's well entrenched. For most games there's just not much point in challenging such an entrenched and well liked concept I guess.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom