Why is magic so strong in most RPGs?

[Sykar]

That is because casters are thought of as the ace in the hole. The warrior is the one who tends to do the heavy lifting which is why they can fight all day long.

 

[Spectacle]

Magic is best when it's blatantly overpowered compared to a non-magic user imo. For a party-based game, where magician and non-magician are meant to be equal options, that doesn't quite work... But a game where the main PC is a magician, who can hire less powerful non-magicians as help, for a party, would be cool, so you could keep the non-magic parts of the game realistic instead of getting lategame warriors who could kill 10s of lesser opponents just by somehow being so good at fighting.

This could be a cool premise for a game, in my opinion. I mean, party-based games in which everyone is important part of the team are commonplace. But a party-based game where you openly admit that your mage is the most important character and others are literally expendable meatshields? I can't recall many games with this kind of concept.

That's basically the concept behind the old Ars Magica tabletop RPG. You play as a circle of mages in medieval Europe, each player has one mage character and a number of mundane 'companions'. Only one mage goes on each adventure, the other players bring an appropriate companion character instead. Of course you rotate over the campaign so that every player gets to play their mage in turn.

Sadly there's never been a CRPG adaptation of Ars Magica.

 

[Cryomancer]

Divine spells mostly suck though. Beyond mandatory healing, a cleric is just an underpowered fighter 99% of the time.

Clerics and Druids are incredible powerful, mainly in 3.5E

"CoDzilla is a 3e Dungeons & Dragons term, a portmanteau of "Cleric or Druid" and "Godzilla", describing a very powerful Cleric or Druid build. It came about because these classes have the potential to become game-breakingly overpowered when built properly.

(...)

For example, with the strength domain a cleric can boost his Strength score to absurd levels for one round (we're talking about a bonus equal to his level.) Combine this with Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favour, charging, using a two-handed weapon (preferably a +5 impact Minotaur greathammer,) pounce, a +5 inherent bonus to Strength, and expending as much to power attack as he can get away with; the damage done with a full attack would be enough to kill 99% of the monsters in the monster manual in a single round and put a serious hurting on anything that can survive. This, of course, is far from the most optimized CoDzilla build." https://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla

People compare Wizards VS Fighters, but is clear that melee divine casters >>>> rest.

 

[Sykar]

Clerics are arguably the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5 ED.

 

[Pulse]

I'm confused, I remember from BG2 and ToB that clerics went up to 7th level only spells: https://pihwiki.bgforge.net/Baldur's_Gate:_Divine_Spells_List

But when I compare with https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm, I see that...many of the BG 7th level cleric spells are actually 9th level spells??

Edit: Actually earthquake is 8th level, gate 9th level

 

[Cryomancer]

Clerics are arguably the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5 ED.

Druids are insanely powerful too. But they are nature clerics with animal companions and shapeshifting powers.

I'm confused, I remember from BG2 and ToB that clerics went up to 7th level only spells: https://pihwiki.bgforge.net/Baldur's_Gate:_Divine_Spells_List

But when I compare with https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm, I see that...many of the BG 7th level cleric spells are actually 9th level spells??

BG is AD&D/2E. Divine casters go up to 7th tier there.
That site is 3.5E. Divine casters go up to 9th tier there.

Simple as that, WoTC changed the magical system from the original TSR.

 

[Pulse]

Clerics are arguably the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5 ED.

Druids are insanely powerful too. But they are nature clerics with animal companions and shapeshifting powers.

I'm confused, I remember from BG2 and ToB that clerics went up to 7th level only spells: https://pihwiki.bgforge.net/Baldur's_Gate:_Divine_Spells_List

But when I compare with https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm, I see that...many of the BG 7th level cleric spells are actually 9th level spells??

BG is AD&D/2E. Divine casters go up to 7th tier there.
That site is 3.5E. Divine casters go up to 9th tier there.

Simple as that, WoTC changed the magical system from the original TSR.

I see, thanks. Well, going from Amelyssan and Sendai, clerics and clerics/mages multiclass are insane. Huge playground for different strategies too. I had played a solo sorcerer in my first playthrough, which was amazing, but cleric/mage opens up a whole new level of possibilities.

 

[InSight]

Divine spells mostly suck though. Beyond mandatory healing, a cleric is just an underpowered fighter 99% of the time.

In NeverWinter 1 clerics have access to Harm, Destruction , Blade Barrier and Storm of Vengeance has offensive options that can handle must if not all encounter given including these in modules.

Harm

Description: If the caster makes a successful melee touch attack, harm uses negative energy to reduce the target creature to 1d4 hit points. This spell has a reverse effect on undead, healing the targeted undead to full health instead of harming it.

Harm is highly accurate spell that can finish even a over 9000 hit point monster in a breeze/seconds, only resistant by negative energy immunity which often refer to undead in which case Heal is used instead for the same effect. Being a 6 level spell, it can be stacked more than necessary.
In NWN 2 harm has been limited to 150 damage points, yet its still remain useful.

Having higher stats will generally increase the odds of survival/victory in cases of sneak attack, situations were spells were not allowed to be prepared before hand.

In addition to utility/defensive, which do not require resistance check(will always work/succeed), combined with monk wisdom bonus to Armor Class, they can be on par with fighters or even suppress them will still providing more. How they would handle a caster, casting time stop spell, considering interruption with the help of haste spell or destruction is not known.
Cleric in these games edition/ruleset are capable to provide for most situation. "best of both worlds".

 

[Norfleet]

Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Thor, Beowulf all swapped at a moments notice?

As we can see from this example, martial heroes are not non-magical schlubs anyway: They're almost invariably of noble blood, descended from the Gods. Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, and Thor are all demigods or gods. Even Beowulf is at least the descendant of a king. Also, myths and legends are typically more grounded in reality than RPGs. Magical figures that exist are less overt in their magical powers. They don't go about slinging fireballs and lightning bolts at whim, unless they're gods. Merlin doesn't electrocute the enemies of King Arthur's knights with chain lightning. The powers of most magical figures tend to be oracular or ritualistic in nature: They know things that they probably shouldn't, or are capable of odd rituals producing seemingly unnatural effects, rather than being capable of conjuring force on demand. In contrast, RPGs tend to treat them as field artillery.

 

[Nazrim Eldrak]

Steel isn't strong boy. Flesh is stronger!

Spoiler

 

[mondblut]

For example, with the strength domain a cleric can boost his Strength score to absurd levels for one round (we're talking about a bonus equal to his level.) Combine this with Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favour, charging, using a two-handed weapon (preferably a +5 impact Minotaur greathammer,) pounce, a +5 inherent bonus to Strength, and expending as much to power attack as he can get away with; the damage done with a full attack would be enough to kill 99% of the monsters in the monster manual in a single round and put a serious hurting on anything that can survive. This, of course, is far from the most optimized CoDzilla build." https://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla

People compare Wizards VS Fighters, but is clear that melee divine casters >>>> rest.

By the time he finishes buffing, 99% of the monsters in the monster manual get bored and leave. So does the player.

As far as I am concerned, buffs that do not affect the entire party do not exist. Imagine buffing every character individually, before every encounter. Instant refund.

 

[InSight]

What they are is essentially analogous to what would be possible in real life and thus not fantastic.

Conan may appear to be unusually powerful for a human being but he is within the realm of what is possible in reality as Howard understood it. Boromir too is just as strong as any man could be in real life.

So the limit of a fantasy warrior is what is possible in real life, where as the limit of the magic powers of a wizard is only based on what a given author or creator thinks is best for the story or setting, but technically there is no limit because it's all made up anyway.

Agreed when it comes to most western/European written fantasy novels on assumption, but due to existence/awareness/consideration of some Asian based fiction/fantasy novels, this notion/conclusion is questioned. In these; warriors (as these who train & engage in war/battle/combat) can perform feats that exceed the limits of what expected of man/human body such as slashing the ground open or walking in air due training or/and technic. They depicts warriors(one can describe them as warrior mage's as well) who's only limit is based on what a given author or creator thinks is best for the story or setting, but technically there is no limit.


The fantasy of fantasy warrior seems unnecessary, a warrior in fantasy world would suffice. One can also word/summarize the concept as the ordinary(warrior) vs extra-ordinary(magic) or the best/finest/exemplary among ordinary vs extra ordinary9relative between the two). Best in regard to the main story character, who are often depict the best among their peers if applied to Boromir and Conan as warriors. They are not depicted with fantastic abilities when compared to magic and thus have limit.

The character's Legolas, Gimly(from Lord of The Rings), Geralt(The Witcher) and fictions who's characters described has half-gods would better fit the description of fantasy warriors.

 

[Cryomancer]

which was amazing, but cleric/mage opens up a whole new level of possibilities.

I would recommend Necromancer(specialist mage)/Cleric if you wanna multiclass.

Takes too much XP to level up both classes but at end game, you become incredible powerful.

Note that as a mage instead of a sorcerer, you will need to find scrolls and try to learn from them.

Legolags

Legolas uses cheat. He uses aimbot and unlimited arrow cheat. Doesn't count.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

unlimited arrow

Eh? Dude gets to knifing once he's out of arrows

 

[Sykar]

Mage vs warrior:

 

[Norfleet]

Legolas uses cheat. He uses aimbot and unlimited arrow cheat. Doesn't count.

Bah, he is not even a human. He is an an immortal being who has spent the last few thousand years arrowing things out of boredom. Of course he shoots like an aimbot. With how much practice the guy has gotten, it should be straight up near-impossible for him to miss anything incapable of outright dodging.

The character's Legolags, Gimly(from Lord of The Rings), Geralt(The Witcher) and fictions who's characters described has half-gods would better fit the description of fantasy warriors.

And what do all of these have in common? None of them are normal humans. An immortal elf, a dwarf, and a magical mutant of some kind.

 

[Orud]

Clerics are arguably the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5 ED.

While I do not disagree with this statement in the broad sense, I do want to point out that clerics (and other caster focused characters) can run out of steam somewhat fast. They simply don't have the spellslots to keep alpha-striking a large amount of fights between rests.

Many (video) games hide this issue by allowing recovery (rest) to be spammed.

 

[Sykar]

Clerics are arguably the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5 ED.

While I do not disagree with this statement in the broad sense, I do want to point out that clerics (and other caster focused characters) can run out of steam somewhat fast. They simply don't have the spellslots to keep alpha-striking a large amount of fights between rests.

Many (video) games hide this issue by allowing recovery (rest) to be spammed.

You are aware that they have a higher amount of spell slots compared to wizards, right?

 

[Orud]

You are aware that they have a higher amount of spell slots compared to wizards, right?

Yep. I was mainly referring to a caster focused character vs non-caster focused character.

 

[Sarathiour]

Hi guys, first post here.

Welcome, then. RPG Watch refugees need to be de-loused and checked for tetanus first. Have a seat over there.

I'm proud to be one of the community. Hope my first post doesn't get shat on too much.

Let's take a look then, shall we?

MMO's

Uh...

like WoW

...you're not getting off to a good start here.

OP

OP

Like I said, have a seat over there.

Needlessly long, you could tell that something was very wrong from the very start.

I'm proud to be one of the community.

Welcome abord the special boy club

 

[Sarathiour]

Mage vs warrior:

She lost though.


Anyway shitposting aside, the problem with trying to balance too much between might and magic is that you end up with D&D 4th edition, with everyclass having a very close kit, and everything feeel the same.

A friendly warning : know that individu pushing for such thing are regarded here with disdain as best. Worst than both combatfag and storyfag, even below rtwp enjoyer, and may I be forgiven for uttering their name :



THE SAWYERITE

 

[Sykar]

Mage vs warrior:

She lost though.


Anyway shitposting aside, the problem with trying to balance too much between might and magic is that you end up with D&D 4th edition, with everyclass having a very close kit, and everything feeel the same.

A friendly warning : know that individu pushing for such thing are regarded here with disdain as best. Worst than both combatfag and storyfag, even below rtwp enjoyer, and may I be forgiven for uttering their name :



THE SAWYERITE

She pwned everyone else though.

 

[Serus]

A bunch of nerds who spent their time reading books all day instead of working out are really happy that characters who spent all their time studying books are the strongest. Now, the people making those rpgs are these nerds who did nothing but read book all the time.

Wrong. Nerds who read books don't want to be... nerds that read books - just magical ones. They dream to "crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!" And look like the man who spoke those words.


The best games would be the one that has magic, even powerful but that comes with serious limitation and/or costs. DnD used to at least try that at its early stages but i meant even more serious stuff than few slots and very low hp.

 

[Zombra]

Mage vs warrior:

She lost though.

Of course. The simple, pure hearted warrior always beats the conniving, complicated wizard despite the latter's superior power and resources, because something always goes wrong when you dabble in the forbidden or your plans have too many moving parts. This is Fantasy Narrative 101. If you don't believe me, ask ERYFKRAD.

 

[Sykar]

Mage vs warrior:

She lost though.

Of course. The simple, pure hearted warrior always beats the conniving, complicated wizard despite the latter's superior power and resources, because something always goes wrong when you dabble in the forbidden or your plans have too many moving parts. This is Fantasy Narrative 101. If you don't believe me, ask ERYFKRAD.

Akame. Simple? Pure hearted?

Totally simple and pure hearted!