RTS Starcraft

[Zboj Lamignat]

If you want to discuss rts in a bit more detail than "they're both in the same genre, yup" then there's obviously a huge gap between them. Which is a good thing, the rts that were able to detach themselves from the typical "nice production values, music, goofy cinematics, simplistic (but not easy) gameplay" template are typically some of the best the genre has to offer.

 

[Joggerino]

However shitty the pathfinding can be, it is now part of the game balance. Controlling your large army well becomes a key skill because the AI won't do it for you. Furthermore, some units are basically useless on their own but if you micro them well they become god-tier.

 

[Preben]

The real issue is that SC becoming the rts for proverbial normies had a pretty catastrophic impact on the genre (which doesn't mean that it wasn't a very good game, of course).

Basically this. Starcraft killed the genre. Which is a damn shame because in late 1990s there were lots of interesting and innovative games. After Starcraft took the entire pie, there was little to no reason to make RTS games, let alone to innovate. Only the AoE2 somewhat survived as an online alternative, but it was nowhere as big until fairly recently.

 

[BING XI LAO]

(sort of like what Myth is for rt tactics)

I knew the myth games were great for story, and solid for gameplay, but does this mean they're even better than "just" great for gameplay mechanical depth?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

What I meant is that, similar to TA, Myth was absolutely mindblowing in how the technology influenced the gameplay (destruction/carnage, terrain/physics/weather impacting combat, ai doing clever stuff and playing different units according to their strengths) and that it did a lot of interesting things other games didn't really follow up on, which is a shame. Atmosphere, music and gameplay were god tier too, of course.

 

[luj1]

I recently have started to play this game. What is your opinion about it?

The best RTS of all time

 

[luj1]

Best game Blizzard ever made.

and Diablo 2

Wasn't made by Blizzard, but Blizzard North also known as Condor Entertainment, it had complete autonomy from Blizzard.

 

[luj1]

They looked up to Aliens for Terran/Zerg inspiration. You can recognise the dropship line.

They "looked up" to Wh40k as well (copied it). Zerg = Tyranids. Same philosophy behind it, with different species being incorporated into the Swarm / Hive Mind (also called the same). Also notice how marine armor is similar to Space Marine armor (oversized pauldrons, etc).

 

[Storyfag]

They looked up to Aliens for Terran/Zerg inspiration. You can recognise the dropship line.

They "looked up" to Wh40k as well (copied it). Zerg = Tyranids. Same philosophy behind it, with different species being incorporated into the Swarm / Hive Mind (also called the same). Also notice how marine armor is similar to Space Marine armor (oversized pauldrons, etc).

It's not like the Tyranids are an Alien ripoff, amirite?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but this seems to be the most relevant thread I could find and I'm leery of making a new thread on the same topic.

Anyway, I'm very critical of the writing even going back to SC1 OG. Wanna talk about it?

 

[fork]

I recently have started to play this game. What is your opinion about it?

The best RTS of all time

This. By far.

 

[Storyfag]

Anyway, I'm very critical of the writing even going back to SC1 OG. Wanna talk about it?

Speak out. At your own risk.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Anyway, I'm very critical of the writing even going back to SC1 OG. Wanna talk about it?

Speak out. At your own risk.

Ok then.

There’s a lot I could talk about, so I’ll start with one point for now: I don’t like QoB. I think she ruins the zerg’s characterization in a similar way to how Star Trek ruined the Borg.

What do you think?

 

[Storyfag]

Ok then.

There’s a lot I could talk about, so I’ll start with one point for now: I don’t like QoB. I think she ruins the zerg’s characterization in a similar way to how Star Trek ruined the Borg.

What do you think?

Dissimilar. The Borg Queen was introduced without a word of explanation, as a pillar of the Collective that has always been in place. Kerrigan is the Overmind's Terran assimilation project gone wrong. Her presence in the Swarm is explained, and she obviously changes the Zerg, but that change is painstaikingly presented to us. You might not like where the change is going (and neither do I, to be honest), but narratively it is handled properly.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Ok then.

There’s a lot I could talk about, so I’ll start with one point for now: I don’t like QoB. I think she ruins the zerg’s characterization in a similar way to how Star Trek ruined the Borg.

What do you think?

Dissimilar. The Borg Queen was introduced without a word of explanation, as a pillar of the Collective that has always been in place. Kerrigan is the Overmind's Terran assimilation project gone wrong. Her presence in the Swarm is explained, and she obviously changes the Zerg, but that change is painstaikingly presented to us. You might not like where the change is going (and neither do I, to be honest), but narratively it is handled properly.

I disagree, but I suppose that’s arguing semantics. Metzen admits he made up the plot as he went with no long-term plan and some studio interference. Metzen added her because he wanted to create a connection (however unnecessary) with the previous terran campaign and clearly didn’t care about making the zerg a distinct civilization. The end result is that the zerg’s cultural development is tossed in the garbage in favor of making them mindless slaves to a lunatic with boyfriend issues (that can equally apply to QoB or Amon). I hate what Metzen did to the zerg and I think he’s a bad writer who got lucky.

I’ve spent years looking for other fiction that does the concept justice, without success to my eternal surprise. While Metzen is uncreative and derivative af most of the time, writing the Overmind and cerebrates (however underdeveloped) was a stroke of genius that set the zerg apart from the horribly boring tyranid campaigns in the 40k RTS games (and I say that as a long-time tyranid fan). Introducing Kerry (who is based on Metzen’s ex I may add) and focusing on her boyfriend issues instead of the grand mission immediately throws all that hard work in the trash.

I haven’t touched on the terrans, protoss, and xel’naga, but believe me I have very strong words to say. Pointing out everything I take issue with would take a while, so for tl;dr my thoughts on the matter are “the overarching plot should have been a galactic war between the UED, Conclave, and Overmind, with individual campaigns telling small scale self-contained stories against that backdrop.” I hate and resent Blizzard, Starcraft, and SC fandom. I wish there was another fandom that did the premise justice with non-stupid writing written by someone who actually gives an eff about the worldbuilding and civ building (and no, I’m not interested in 40k anymore thnx for asking).

I’m sorry if I sound unhinged, this has been a sore point for me for the past several years.

 

[kinzadza]

As far as I remember Kerrigan's "boyfriend" issues started in sc2, and sc2 story is garbo. In sc1 she's a power hungry manipulator and there is no romantic side to her story. In fact, she kills Phoenix and Reynor wows to kill her, which he then somehow magicaly forgets in sc2 and becomes a fucking simp.

The terran story is great, fighting the zerg and dominion as outcasts, protoss story is about struggle, betrayal and saving their race, zerg story is with the overmind and getting a glimpse at xel'naga and all that jazz. U get to see wars, invasions, assassinations, rebellions and a lot more. Maybe it's not the grand space opera u wanted it to be, but it holds up even better today compared to most of writing in games. Also the story had dark humour, especially on the terran side, and really good movies.

I also like how you as the player are an actual character in the game (lieutenant for terran, executor for protoss, and cerebrate for zerg) instead of being a formless observer, and it feels like you are in the story living the events through with the characters.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Maybe it's not the grand space opera u wanted it to be,

I never wanted anything deeper than the writing in Westwood RTS games. At least those games had better faction writing. The factions had actual ideologies rather than being puppets for the main chars’ personal vendettas

 

[RaggleFraggle]

but it holds up even better today compared to most of writing in games.

https://superior-realities.com/2014/05/02/starcraft-im-just-going-to-say-it/

 

[Storyfag]

Amon

I thought you wanted to discuss SC1 OG.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Amon

I thought you wanted to discuss SC1 OG.

Ok.

Another point: there are two simultaneous apocalyptic alien invasions going on. Instead of focusing on the terrans fighting back against the aliens, the terran story is about some rebels fighting an evil terran empire. After the rebels win and the terran worlds are left devastated, the aliens just conveniently leave rather than continuing the assault and killing everyone. Also, the rebel leader becomes an evil emperor at the end anyway.

Do you find that satisfying? I don’t find that satisfying.

 

[Storyfag]

After the rebels win and the terran worlds are left devastated, the aliens just conveniently leave rather than continuing the assault and killing everyone.

Well, seeing as how the Protoss were only invading in order to keep the Zerg from reaching Aiur and the Zerg did reach Aiur anyway, the combat theatre just lost meaning for both sides. The Zerg got psi powers from assimilating Kerrigan, which was the Overmind's stated goal, and the location of Aiur, which was an unexpected bonus. The Protoss failed badly at their containment strategy and then had to pull back to defend their homeworld.

Makes sense.

Also, the rebel leader becomes an evil emperor at the end anyway.

Do you find that satisfying?

10/10, would support Emperor Mengsk again. In fact, following Raynor in the last mission leaves a sour aftertaste in my mouth.

 

[jackofshadows]

You fucks I'm playing OG campain now instead of working.

 

[Black_Willow]

Mengsk posing as a noble savior of humanity while being an opportunistic bastard who never gets a good crisis go to waste is one of the best things in SC plot.

 

[BrotherFrank]

And besides if you weren’t a fan of raynor or mengsk, there was the UED campaign from brood war that gave exactly what Raggie wants: a glorious crusade to reclaim the wayward colonies and kick the butt of any xenos filth that threatened humanity.

Tbh on one hand I wish the sc2 campaign had the UED return angrier then ever after seeing how they got screwed over by an alliance of aliens aided by traitorous humans, on the other this means sc2s retarded writing never sullied them.

Edit: nevermind, i completely forgot about stukov coming back as a zerg…. Fuck! Almost unsullied then.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

And besides if you weren’t a fan of raynor or mengsk, there was the UED campaign from brood war that gave exactly what Raggie wants: a glorious crusade to reclaim the wayward colonies and kick the butt of any xenos filth that threatened humanity.

Unfortunately that idiot Metzen squandered that too because he was horny for Kerry.

As I said, I feel the ideal plot is “UED, Overmind, and Conclave duke it out for control of space.” From there, individual campaigns could focus on small scale self contained stories.

I don’t like Kerry, Raynor, or Mengsk as the main characters of the universe. I think they squandered the franchise. Mengsk is a boring generic dictator. Kerry shat on the zerg by turning them from an intimidating galactic space monster into a plot device the human characters fight over.

The protoss and zerg suck ass in their present characterization. I think they need some rewriting. The protoss should be intimidating galactic space police, not generic dying space elves always on the run chasing prophecies and plot devices. The zerg should be inhuman alien monsters seeking evolution that don’t value inferior human personalities, not slaves to stupid shortsighted inferior humans.

I think SC lore is fucked forever now and I had so many arguments with SC fandom that I hate the fandom now. So I decided to make my own scifi rather than deal with that shit anymore. It’s coming along very slowly and I wish I had like-minded people to bounce ideas off.

Well, seeing as how the Protoss were only invading in order to keep the Zerg from reaching Aiur and the Zerg did reach Aiur anyway, the combat theatre just lost meaning for both sides. The Zerg got psi powers from assimilating Kerrigan, which was the Overmind's stated goal, and the location of Aiur, which was an unexpected bonus. The Protoss failed badly at their containment strategy and then had to pull back to defend their homeworld.

Makes sense.

That doesn’t match what the manual says but fuck this shit writing. I want to throttle Metzen.

What I mean is, After Mengsk takes over the zerg just up and fuck off to Char because it would be inconvenient for them to keep attacking and kill Mengsk, so Metzen made up some bullshit about Kerry being a snowflake so that the zerg would leave.

The zerg are a lazy plot device here. Against the arachnids from Starship Troopers, Mengsk would’ve gotten eaten.

I am so fucking tired of trying to explain why Metzen is a shit writer who ruined SC with his horniness. That’s why I decided to make my own scifi.

Again, sorry I sound unhinged. I just hate what Blizz did to their 40k ripoff. There were some interesting ideas, but those idiots squandered it. I’m glad ActiBlizz is bleeding money now. I want them to die and their franchises to be forgotten