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Elden Ring Critique(s)

Silva

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1) If you want everything to be in a path you'll cross anyway, Final Fantasy XIII must be the height of game design to you.
2) Please clarify where and how mini dungeons came up before.
1) A good open-world keeps the ratio of worth-worthless exploration attractive. Elden Ring not only has it low, but makes the average traversal and completion of minor dungeons too long and repetitive/a chore. Party based games have it easier as most treasure will fit the party. Solo character games must a) give the player a good idea of what the reward will be so he chooses if the time investment is worth it, or b) make the traversal to the reward quicker/to the point and interesting/varied, nothing of which Elden Ring does.

I like open-worlds but in the case of soulsborne I prefer the classic formula, where maps are wide corridors that interlink creatively and items are placed in the player's path or hidden on it's periphery.

2) Bloodborne's Chalice Dungeons.
 
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mediocrepoet

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1) If you want everything to be in a path you'll cross anyway, Final Fantasy XIII must be the height of game design to you.
2) Please clarify where and how mini dungeons came up before.
1) A good open-world keeps the ratio of worth-worthless exploration attractive. Elden Ring not only has it low, but makes the average traversal and completion of minor dungeons too long and repetitive/a chore. Party based games have it easier as most treasure will fit the party. Solo character games must a) give the player a good idea of what the reward will be so he chooses if the time investment is worth it, or b) make the traversal to the reward quicker/to the point and interesting/varied, nothing of which Elden Ring does.

I like open-worlds but in the case of soulsborne I prefer the classic formula, where maps are wide corridors that interlink creatively and items are placed in the player's path or hidden on it's periphery.

2) Bloodborne's Chalice Dungeons.

Re: chalice dungeons - yeah, fair enough.

I actually disagree with most of the rest of what you're saying, though I don't think your position is unreasonable.

I played Elden Ring generally with no guide or wiki assistance. A huge part of my enjoyment was from the sense of adventure and exploration which necessitates that you don't know exactly what to expect and "whether the time investment would be worth it". This is a game, not a business conference. I have enough stuff to slot in and juggle time commitments on when I'm engaging with real life, I don't want to bring it into my gaming time. On top of that, I think it's exactly this mentality that encourages checklist design that often gets derided in gaming, especially in the open world space.

Regarding knowing generally what to expect, as has been noted elsewhere repeatedly, catacombs generally give you spirit ashes, ruins tend to provide weapons or talismans, mines give you upgrade materials, minor and legacy dungeons can give a bit of everything, etc. I'd say that's knowing generally what to expect and that this also probably points out a tension between wanting to "know generally what to expect" and complaints about repetition since if everything's unique, how do you "know generally what to expect"? Regardless, I found the content suitably varied as there are areas that emphasize puzzles, ones that feature various sorts of secret doors, ones with teleporter traps, mirrored level designs to confuse you, etc. I'm not sure if your demands are unreasonably high or if you just didn't find these things because you didn't spend enough time exploring.

Going back to "Solo character games must a) give the player a good idea of what the reward will be so he chooses if the time investment is worth it, or b) make the traversal to the reward quicker/to the point and interesting/varied, nothing of which Elden Ring does." I highly disagree. The sense of adventure and journey is a huge part of what makes the game fun and noteworthy and why the game would be better in a way if fast travel was more limited, though leaving it in allows the game to accomodate both preferences fairly well since you can just not use it. Most games out there will satisfy your apparent checklist preferences, but very few have a worthwhile journey and adventure to explore and experience.

Despite highly enjoying the Soulsborne games, after a time or two through it, I find them to be fairly rote since it's easy to remember all the nuances of the levels and then if I play them at all anymore, it's generally spending all my time in pvp. Elden Ring is big enough that not only do playthroughs take forever and a day, but it's easy to preserve at least some sense of adventure in repeated playthroughs because you forget exactly where something is - both items and locations. And because the fanbase is large enough, you can wiki things later if you really just want an item or to experience a certain piece of content and it's worth trading the adventure element in for.

I actually think that, just like some people loving the hell out of Sekiro and others hating it, that the divisive reaction to Elden Ring shows why it's great. Games shouldn't appeal to everyone and they shouldn't try to. When they do, you end up with bland experiences that don't truly satisfy anyone, whereas by focusing on certain areas, they turn some people off, but are amazing to others. Elden Ring is both very similar and very different from other Soulsborne games. I think this is a good thing and wish that more games followed this sort of goal even if it means that I hate some stuff that other people jizz their pants over.
 

Hassar

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It’s not consistently fun - there are stretches of the game that are quite simply unbalanced without enough content to keep you playing.

And the lack of story and/or interesting characters really does not work for an open world game. You end up having a world that doesn’t really need to be a “world” because it does not pretend anything happens in it.

Also, I think From’s “shiny” item signifier system breaks apart in an open world. There are many instances where you expend time fighting enemies while dangerously low on health and/or fp/resources to get shinies that end up being junk crafting items you don’t even use. Or worse, a skill pr weapon that ends up being crappy. There is a risk/reward imbalance. And, at this point in graphical fidelity, I think the form of the item should be seen so you can clearly see whether the item is worth risking your progress for. A shining spell scroll is a better motivator than a random shiny on a corpse that ends up being soap.

I would say, though, that some players get frustrated because they are fighting the developer’s design philosophy. Players who want to focus on only one weapon or fighting style unnecessarily gimp themselves. I started as a pure sorcerer and was bored. I embraced the multi-vector attack options that six -twelve slots provide and moved on to use bows & arrows for distance attacks that preserve my fp for larger spells and set up status effects, a good spear as a primary weapon, and even a seal for healing backup. Heck, you even have skills that justify keeping multiple copies of a weapon and still others that are treated as items freeing up spell slots. Tons of options can get ignored if you just take a single-minded approach. This is still a sorcerer but the gameplay expanded greatly once I stopped being annoyed that I couldn’t just spam one type of attack to get through encounters. I’m not saying that I’m playing it “right” compared to other players but I would suggest that the game offers tons of options that players may ignore because they slavishly follow a build or are trying to force this to be something it is not. It’s nothing new: it really is Dark Souls 3.5 with more options and a larger map with more enemies. But those achievements are enough to make this a solid 8/10 IMO.
 
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Dhaze

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I would say, though, that some players get frustrated because they are fighting the developer’s design philosophy. Players who want to focus on only one weapon or fighting style unnecessarily gimp themselves. (...) I’m not saying that I’m playing it “right” compared to other players but I would suggest that the game offers tons of options that players may ignore because they slavishly follow a build or are trying to force this to be something it is not.

Disregarding for an instant the fact that the 'right way to play' really is any way one enjoys most, I think there is a serious case to be made that you are, indeed, playing it the right way, so to speak.

Sekiro aside, here you have games evidently designed with, at their core, the idea of allowing the player to experiment rather freely with different playstyles. If I recall correctly the Design Works interview with the producers of DS1, they specifically mentionned that they wanted the player to be able to find a new weapon or piece of armor, and go "Oh I'm gonna use that one right now!"

There are no rigid class system; no weapon nor any tool can only be used if you chose this class or that one. Of course there are prerequisites but only in the form of stats, and most of these are low enough they can be reached with minimal investment, should the need arise. And having began playing these games with Demon's Souls (hell, before that even I remember trudging through King's Field 3 when I was a kid), it was always so weird to me how many, many people decide from the get-go to only focus on one way to fight, to the absolute exclusion of any other means. It's nothing short of astounding to me.
Perhaps it was EpicNameBro, but rather I think it was FightingCowboy over on Youtube who, for his very first playthrough of DS3, had decided to go with a strength build. So he chose the Warrior class, which had a base 9 points in dextrity, and put all his stats in strength, vitality, vigor, and endurance. And for the whole playthrough he bitched and moaned like a petulant child because so many weapons required 10 points in dexterity; and he could not invest 1 point in dex, because that would have ruined his build.

Worst perhaps are the ones who seemingly make it a point of honor to only play melee with no shield, no bow, no spell, no consumables, no NPC summons (or in the case of Elden Ring, Spirit Ashes), as if there was more online- or self-glory to be garnered this way—only to then complain that the game's combat is boring, or "This encounter is an unfair, artificialy difficult ganksquad," or "How am I supposed to hit the Moonlight Butterfly with my sword when it flies? Bad design, 0/10."

Mind you, I still hugely prefer the combat mechanics of Nioh—and its superior younger brother, Nioh 2. It's snappy and tight and crunchy and all kinds of right. Nor do I think Elden Ring is perfect; in fact I'd say it's my penultimate favorite of the Souls games. But, whilst very different, there's quite a bit of fun to be found in Elden Ring's combat and general approach to encounters, and for the life of me I can't understand—at all—why someone would force themselves to only invest in some stats and not others, and ignore bows and crossbows, spells, throwing pots, perfume bottles, and Spirit Ashes. It's like going fishing with only a line held in bare hands, and no pole nor lure.

I think it would sadden me somewhat if I designed a game like that, only to then see people purposefuly play it 'wrong'.
 

Andnjord

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Perhaps it was EpicNameBro, but rather I think it was FightingCowboy over on Youtube who, for his very first playthrough of DS3
I seem to remember Cowboy playing a pyro build for DS3. In general he's more the kind of guy that will use anything to beat the game, no matter what it takes, so I'll lean more on EpicNameBro doing the bitching (I quickly checked one of his Elden Ring streams and he was bitching and moaning about Margit while deliberately fighting him with an un-upgraded dagger on his first playthrough, that made me nope out of there extra fast).
 

Dhaze

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Oh you're right, FightinCowboy went pyro for his Let's Play! It must have been ENB then (though I can't check, since he deleted almost everything from his Youtube channel).

Also, apologies for the quote three pages after the fact, but I'd like to touch on something:

This series peaked unironically with Demon’s Souls and it never got any better.

I would be sincerely curious to hear others' opinions about this: I don't know if it's because I've overplayed these games during the last decade and some, but for a while I've held the notion that, looking at Demon's Souls, the three Dark Souls, and now Elden Ring, as well as Bloodborne and Sekiro (though these two in lesser degrees), there is not merely a commonality of ideas that tie it all neatly together, but rather, I'd argue, a weird, definite-yet-vaguely-unquantifiable air of creative bankruptcy about these games.

- For example, in Demon's Souls we have Garl Vinland; then in DS2 we have Velstadt who, shield aside, looks exactly like Vinland
- Eygon of Carim in DS3 is basically Vinland from Demon's Souls
- DS3's Eygon of Carim wears the Morne set; Morne becomes the name of a fort in Elden Ring
- Gael, name of an NPC/boss in DS3, but also the name of a fort in Elden Ring (naming boogaloo, part two)
- Irina of Carim, blind woman in DS3; Irina, most likely blind in Elden Ring (naming boogaloo, for the third time we do)
- The Bloodhound Knights of Elden Ring look like big brothers to the Nimble Shadows of DS2
- Elden Ring's Envoy Crown is basically Dark Souls' Xanthous Crown.
- Gowry's equipment in Elden Ring: is it Ingward's in DS1, or the Graveguard in Bloodborne?
- The Twinned armor in Elden Ring is DS1's Armor Of Favor with a couple of details changed
- The Imps in Elden Ring are reskinned Thralls from DS3 (their moveset is absolutely identical)
- The Tree Avatars in Elden Ring are reskinned Asylum Demons from Dark Souls, who themselves are reskinned version of Vanguard from Demon's Souls
- Kindred of rot in Elden Ring are so similar to the Sewer Centipedes in DS3
- Phalanx in Demon's Souls; Phalanx in Dark Souls; Silver Tear in Elden Ring
- Blacksmith Ed in Demon's Souls; Blacksmith Hewg in Elden Ring
- Logan's hat in DS1; Preceptor's hat in Elden Ring
- Frampt and Kaathe in DS1; Two Fingers and Three Fingers in Elden Ring
- Whirligig Saw in Bloodborne; Ghiza's Wheel in Elden Ring
- Siegward in DS3 is shamelessly DS1's Siegmeyer who himself is almost shamelessly Demon's Souls' Biorr
- Yuria in Demon's Souls; Karla in DS3
- Capra Demon in DS1; Omenkiller in Elden Ring
- Giant Serpent-Man in DS3; Lesser Wormface in Elden Ring
- The fight against Rennala in Elden Ring, when compared to Rom in Bloodborne
- Mindflayers in Demon's Souls; Brainsuckers in Bloodborne
- Giant Blacksmith in DS1; Iji in Elden Ring
- Imperfects in DS2; Monstrous Dogs in Elden Ring
- Prisoner Horde in Demon's Souls; School of Graven Mages in Elden Ring
- Storm King in Demon's Souls; Yhorm in DS3; Rykard in Elden Ring
- Corrupted Monk and True Corrupted Monk in Sekiro; Loretta in Elden Ring, exact same concept of first fighting the projection, then the real one later on
- Giant with holes in them in DS2; giant with holes in them in Elden Ring
- Man Serpent in DS1; Man Serpent in Elden Ring
- Lycanthropes in DS3; Chained Ogre in Sekiro
- Taro Troops in Sekiro; Pumpkinheads in Elden Ring
- Miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Demon's Souls; miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Elden Ring
- Yurt in Demon's Souls; Lautrec in DS1
- Manus in DS1; Cleric Beast in Bloodborne; Demon of Hatred in Sekiro
- Executioner Miralda in Demon's Souls; Maneater Mildred in DS1; Melinda the Butcher in DS2; Madwoman in DS3; Anastasia, Tarnished-Eater in Elden Ring
- Basilisks and dogs and rotten flesh

And of course many, many, many others.

I mean, going from Demon's Souls to DS1, I understood; they didn't have the permission to make Demon's Souls 2, so they made Demon's Souls 2 in all but name, and a lot of ideas and concepts were re-used. But man, beyond that, the EldenSekisoulsBorne series might be the most green, eco-friendly games in existence, what with all the recycling it does.
 

Lyric Suite

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Basilisks are funny. I'm completely unafraid of them in this game but I was terrified of the ones in DS1 yet they are the same.

[EDIT] On further reflection it might just be that the penalties for dying are not as big in this game due to how many Sites of Grace of get or maybe the status build up was faster in DS1. I remember panic rolling a lot to get out of the cloud back then but here it seems to take longer than i remember.
 
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Andnjord

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Basilisks are funny. I'm completely unafraid of them in this game but I was terrified of the ones in DS1 yet they are the same.

[EDIT] On further reflection it might just be that the penalties for dying are not as big in this game due to how many Sites of Grace of get or maybe the status build up was faster in DS1. I remember panic rolling a lot to get out of the cloud back then but here it seems to take longer than i remember.
You also met these little fuckers on the way down to the Great Hollow through a 'platforming' area, which, as we all know, has never been DS1 forte. At least for me this meant fighting them in between a whole bunch of gravity deaths, failure meaning having to go through all these godforsaken, camera breaking roots all over again. Certainly added some extra tension to them.

- Miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Demon's Souls; miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Elden Ring
Not to argue against your point, but I'm pretty sure the DeS ones were weak to piercing damage (I was using a rapier back then), while the ER ones are weak to strike damage.
 

smaug

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Basilisks are funny. I'm completely unafraid of them in this game but I was terrified of the ones in DS1 yet they are the same.

[EDIT] On further reflection it might just be that the penalties for dying are not as big in this game due to how many Sites of Grace of get or maybe the status build up was faster in DS1. I remember panic rolling a lot to get out of the cloud back then but here it seems to take longer than i remember.
You also met these little fuckers on the way down to the Great Hollow through a 'platforming' area, which, as we all know, has never been DS1 forte. At least for me this meant fighting them in between a whole bunch of gravity deaths, failure meaning having to go through all these godforsaken, camera breaking roots all over again. Certainly added some extra tension to them.

- Miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Demon's Souls; miners highly resistant to physical damage but weak to magic in Elden Ring
Not to argue against your point, but I'm pretty sure the DeS ones were weak to piercing damage (I was using a rapier back then), while the ER ones are weak to strike damage.
They were weak to piercing but when I played the remake I recall the rapier didn’t have piercing damage, only the estoc. Am I misremembering?
 

Andnjord

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They were weak to piercing but when I played the remake I recall the rapier didn’t have piercing damage, only the estoc. Am I misremembering?
It's been something like seven years, I might be misremembering too and was actually using the Estoc :D

EDIT: Nope, smaug, I've checked the wiki and it lists the rapier attack type as piercing.
 

Alrik

Educated
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Basilisks are funny. I'm completely unafraid of them in this game but I was terrified of the ones in DS1 yet they are the same.

[EDIT] On further reflection it might just be that the penalties for dying are not as big in this game due to how many Sites of Grace of get or maybe the status build up was faster in DS1. I remember panic rolling a lot to get out of the cloud back then but here it seems to take longer than i remember.
They cursed you which halved your health until you managed to get a hold of a purging stone. Even if you knew where to get them it was a nuisance since the first time you come across Basilisks you don't have fast travel and IIRC the game only points you in the direction of Ingward, who at that point is extremely frustrating to get to with halved health (Undead Merchant and Oswald of Carim are much more accessible, but still quite a hike from the Depths). IIRC I abandoned my first PS3 playthrough after I got too frustrated trying to get through New Londo to get rid of my curse, really sucked at the game back then though.
 

Raghar

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But when you were cursed you could hit these ghosts. And that was great. Easy fights in New Londo.
 

NJClaw

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But when you were cursed you could hit these ghosts. And that was great. Easy fights in New Londo.
I've played Dark Souls 1 five times over the years and I never knew about that. Goddamn nice attention to detail.
Wait... have you always gone through New Londo without ever touching the ghosts or did you at least use transient curses?
 

Andnjord

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did you at least use transient curses
That one duh. You get...three I think, just before getting in New Londo then you can buy some more from dude dressed in red who stands atop that roof and gives the main key. Plenty enough assuming you don't too much raped by ghost swords going through walls even the first time I played it.
Do you voluntarily get yourself cursed before going to New Londo?
 

mediocrepoet

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did you at least use transient curses
That one duh. You get...three I think, just before getting in New Londo then you can buy some more from dude dressed in red who stands atop that roof and gives the main key. Plenty enough assuming you don't too much raped by ghost swords going through walls even the first time I played it.
Do you voluntarily get yourself cursed before going to New Londo?

I can't help but be a little amused by this. As I recall, the curse thing is actually told to you somewhere. But also...

transient
adjective
1) not lasting, enduring, or permanent; transitory.
2) lasting only a short time; existing briefly; temporary.
 

Andnjord

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did you at least use transient curses
That one duh. You get...three I think, just before getting in New Londo then you can buy some more from dude dressed in red who stands atop that roof and gives the main key. Plenty enough assuming you don't too much raped by ghost swords going through walls even the first time I played it.
Do you voluntarily get yourself cursed before going to New Londo?

I can't help but be a little amused by this. As I recall, the curse thing is actually told to you somewhere. But also...

transient
adjective
1) not lasting, enduring, or permanent; transitory.
2) lasting only a short time; existing briefly; temporary.
Like many people I imagine, on my first playthrough I stepped into New Londo as soon as I was out the Asylum before insta nopping out of there, but did find the Transient Curses, and you are right that since the description of the item says
"Limb of the victim of a curse. Temporary curse allows engagement with ghosts.
The only way to fight back against ghosts, who are cursed beings, is to become cursed oneself."
I could have put two and two together and realised that it's the same curse. But my cursed and traumatised ass was way too busy desperately trying to get out of that blasted hollow tree and Blight town altogether to remember the ghosts briefly sighted hours ago.
 

Raghar

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But when you were cursed you could hit these ghosts. And that was great. Easy fights in New Londo.
I've played Dark Souls 1 five times over the years and I never knew about that. Goddamn nice attention to detail.
IIRC I got into accident with 5 basilics and then entered New Londo exploring location until I'd get 6000 for purging stone. Then I was bit surprised when shield wasn't blocking in next visit. But, yea that man near bonfire hints you should get cursed before entering.
 

Lyric Suite

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did you at least use transient curses
That one duh. You get...three I think, just before getting in New Londo then you can buy some more from dude dressed in red who stands atop that roof and gives the main key. Plenty enough assuming you don't too much raped by ghost swords going through walls even the first time I played it.
Do you voluntarily get yourself cursed before going to New Londo?

The ghosts themselves drop them. Fairly commonly at that you usually get at least two for one transient curse you use, more depending on how fast you are at killing the ghosts or if you bump your item discovery.
 

Silverfish

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so I'll lean more on EpicNameBro doing the bitching (I quickly checked one of his Elden Ring streams and he was bitching and moaning about Margit while deliberately fighting him with an un-upgraded dagger on his first playthrough, that made me nope out of there extra fast).

Irrelevancy hit him pretty hard.
 

Talby

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He made himself irrelevant by moving from YouTube to Twitch. His streams are unwatchable compared to his scripted videos which could be pretty good. Getting cucked and divorced didn't help either.
 

Dhaze

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He made himself irrelevant by moving from YouTube to Twitch. His streams are unwatchable compared to his scripted videos which could be pretty good. Getting cucked and divorced didn't help either.

I never tried to watch his streams (not my thing). Was he still saying, "It's fascinating to me that [...]" almost every two minutes?

He got cucked by his Asian wife?:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah. And I seem to remember him mentionning battling for custody of his child, and how it wrecked him—understandably so. Plus, more and more, he would spend an innordinate amount of time retorting to every single troll in the comment section of his videos. From there things went sour real fast. Then he wiped a huge amount of content from his channel (hundreds of videos); then moved to Twitch, where few people followed him because that's not the kind of content they were looking for; then finally he wiped almost everything that was left on his channel. He even went so far as to erase his FF Tactics and Vagrant Story videos, which by itself says a lot...

Too bad, really. At the time he helped me get into Demon's Souls. And his blind playthrough of DS3 was funny as shit, in a wholesome way; he kept overanalyzing every single detail no matter how irrelevant, and wondering "What do the devs want me to see here?" in the most serious, involved manner possible.
 

Talby

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He got cucked by his Asian wife?:lol::lol::lol:

Long story short, his Jap wife got pregnant, then claimed she had a miscarriage. Turns out she had cheated on him and got an abortion, leading to their divorce. Someone also started a rumor that he was a drug addict which put him at risk of losing custody of his kid. The poor guy went through a lot.
 

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