World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Swansong - narrative RPG from The Council devs - now on Steam

[RaggleFraggle]

It shouldn't be that fucking hard to make a game about vampires,

Replace “vampires” with “urban fantasy” and the statement still applies. This isn’t just a problem with vampires but with urban fantasy in general, and basically with any non-Tolkienesque/D&D-esque fantasy.

How many medieval fantasy games prominently feature vampires as a playable option? Total War: Warhammer, Immortal Realms: Vampire Wars, and V Rising are the only ones that come to my mind. In Elder Scrolls it’s a fairly minor thing, and Legacy of Kain hasn’t had a new game in decades.

How many games feature vampire hunting? I can’t think of anything besides Wrath of Malachi from the early 2000s.

How many games feature vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, etc in a modern setting? A historical or futuristic setting?

This seems to be an issue with video games in general, not just crpgs.

 

[gerey]

Replace “vampires” with “urban fantasy” and the statement still applies. This isn’t just a problem with vampires but with urban fantasy in general, and basically with any non-Tolkienesque/D&D-esque fantasy.

Yes, but unlike most other urban fantasy fare vampires have received quite a few games over the years.

You had Bloodlines, obviously, then there's Dark, Bloodrayne games (specifically 2), Vampyr (sorta counts), Blade 1 and 2, some Castlevania games far as I can recall - and these are specifically games in a modern(ish) setting where you are playing as a vampire.

And if you look at all the games I've listed below, and then try to find a similar lineup of games focusing on other fantasy critters you'll have to admit that vampires feature far more prominently than other monsters, not just in games, but in other media as well - just look at shitload of movies, books, comics etc. focusing on vampires.

How many medieval fantasy games prominently feature vampires as a playable option?

Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption, Castlevania games, Bloodstained, the Legacy of Kain games (though, only Blood Omen 1 and 2 specifically focus on the protagonist being a vampire), a Vampyre Story.

How many games feature vampire hunting? I can’t think of anything besides Wrath of Malachi from the early 2000s.

Darkwatch, that Hunter game from the early 00s, the Buffy game adaptation, Bloodrayne 1 and 2, Nocturne, the Witcher games, the Dawnguard DLC for Skyrim, the Incredible Van Helsing, the Blade tie-in games, Castlevania, Bloodnet, Vampire Rain, Resident Evil 8, Order 1866, and I'm likely forgetting a bunch more.

This seems to be an issue with video games in general, not just crpgs.

My argument really has nothing to do with your weird tangent about developers not bothering with specific narrative niches. There's clearly been an interest in making a (spiritual) sequel to Bloodlines, as evidenced by the existence of games such as Dark, Vampyr and Bloodlines 2, and vampires still retain mainstream interest - yet all these games have failed to live up to Bloodlines' legacy specifically because they kept trying to reinvent the wheels.

So my point still stands - if there is an interest in making a vampire-themed game that taps into the Bloodlines audience, why has nobody been able to successfully copy it?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

So my point still stands - if there is an interest in making a vampire-themed game that taps into the Bloodlines audience, why has nobody been able to successfully copy it?

My question exactly.

Did Dark and Vampyr try to tap into the same audience? They’re tonally very different from Bloodlines.

 

[Harthwain]

I don’t like 90s gritty grimdark nihilism. I liked Bloodlines because it spoofs that attitude.

What liking - or disliking - has to do with anything here? You have to present the idea of an immortal, man-eating monster to the reader. It's not supposed to be pretty. Unless you go for a romance story, which you can easily turn into a tragedy (like Redemption did. It was a successful approach largely because Christof literally starts off as a young vampire and gets hibernated almost right after that, which helps him preserve his noble attitude, should the player wish to keep it. Contrast that with his friend Wilhem Streicher, who gets much more strained as he was operational for all this time that Christof has been sleeping).

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I don’t like 90s gritty grimdark nihilism. I liked Bloodlines because it spoofs that attitude.

What liking - or disliking - has to do with anything here? You have to present the idea of an immortal, man-eating monster to the reader. It's not supposed to be pretty. Unless you go for a romance story, which you can easily turn into a tragedy

Near Dark did it best imho, with all the various vamp characters showcasing the progressive dehumanization of the infected. Good flick, would recc.

 

[Wesp5]

So my point still stands - if there is an interest in making a vampire-themed game that taps into the Bloodlines audience, why has nobody been able to successfully copy it?

Maybe it isn't as much about the vampires themselves, but about the world they act in and the characters they meet. Bloodlines had so many characters that felt real and memorable and were not just used to get a political message across!

 

[gerey]

Did Dark and Vampyr try to tap into the same audience? They’re tonally very different from Bloodlines.

I'd argue they were trying to. Vampyr was clearly aiming for a much different motif and setting, but the "choices and consequences" aspect was heavily emphasized, along with the RPG elements.

Dark, on the other hand, was much closer to Bloodlines in terms of tone, if only because it took place in a modern setting, but it also featured a poor attempt at a stealth immersive sim. I remember that the Dark devs cited Bloodlines as a direct inspiration.

Bloodlines had so many characters that felt real and memorable and were not just used to get a political message across!

I agree. If you struggle to dissociate your personal politics from the writing to the point it starts to actively interfere with the storytelling, maybe it's time to give up on writing as a career profession?

Bloodlines took to heart the WoD vampire adage that vampires only care about vampire politics - so even when you had ostensibly righteous characters like the Anarchs, the game reminded you that they were still bloodsucking monsters that viewed humans as cattle, just like their Venture cousins.

Meanwhile in 5e you had that gay nigger Rudy screeching about Neo Nazis and social justice like he was still human. Same shit with Swansong, the characters all feel like the usual liberal stereotypes, like the devs had this checklist of woke trait quotas they had to fill, right down to the black woman with vitiligo, a protagonist with a dyke haircut, faggots everywhere et al. Also, a female prince that is also black? What the fuck?

It really shatters immersion, especially when you're supposed to believe that vampires are very picky in whom they chose to sire, and you're telling me that these centuries-old monsters that struggle with modern technology and likely still view blacks as farming equipment went and picked up these freaks as their progeny?

 

[Storyfag]

Also, a female prince that is also black?

Is that an Emem spoiler? The Prince holding praxis at the start of the game is of Norwegian origin.

 

[gerey]

Is that an Emem spoiler?

No, that's my dumb ass not doing my due diligence. I simply assumed the black kween was the prince because it's that kind of game.

In my defense I tried watching someone play the game and had to quit in disgust 5 minutes in.

 

[ArchAngel]

So is this game any good? How woke is it?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I don’t like 90s gritty grimdark nihilism. I liked Bloodlines because it spoofs that attitude.

What liking - or disliking - has to do with anything here? You have to present the idea of an immortal, man-eating monster to the reader. It's not supposed to be pretty. Unless you go for a romance story, which you can easily turn into a tragedy (like Redemption did. It was a successful approach largely because Christof literally starts off as a young vampire and gets hibernated almost right after that, which helps him preserve his noble attitude, should the player wish to keep it. Contrast that with his friend Wilhem Streicher, who gets much more strained as he was operational for all this time that Christof has been sleeping).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_We_Do_in_the_Shadows_(TV_series)

 

[jackofshadows]

So is this game any good? How woke is it?

Overall very bad with detective sections as highpoints (like the mission they fed to slutjournous). Extremely woke. Basically a sjw power fantasy.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

So my point still stands - if there is an interest in making a vampire-themed game that taps into the Bloodlines audience, why has nobody been able to successfully copy it?

Maybe it isn't as much about the vampires themselves, but about the world they act in and the characters they meet. Bloodlines had so many characters that felt real and memorable and were not just used to get a political message across!

With regard to Vampyr and Dark specifically, politics doesn't factor into it. The writing and game design is just weak in those games. Mechanics aside, Bloodlines embraced campiness and b-movie aesthetics. Those other games take themselves too seriously and seem afraid to have fun with the inherent ridiculousness of their premises.

In the Paradox spin-offs they've been flooding the market with it's basically "look how much lore we can reference from the tabletop! Look how much idiosyncratic jargon we use! Isn't that amazing?" with a side order of obnoxious activism. Rehash after rehash after rehash because nostalgia. I'm burned out on the concept of lore in media because almost all the time it's used a crutch to draw in nostalgic fans rather than relying on the plot's own merits. Lore is also bloated, overbearing, restrictive and other unpleasant adjectives. Troika only used the IP because Activision forced them to, but their goal all along was just to made a good game with the characteristic writing they were known for. They weren't lorejunkies writing something self-masturbatory.

One of the few lores that I haven't grown to despise is cthulhu mythos, and that's only because it doesn't have a canon: writers make up new things all the time or wildly reinterpret old things. Even tho the cthulhu mythos is a century old it still feels fresh because writers do new things with it. Including video games: Sharnoth, Song of Saya, Conarium, Lust from Beyond, Amnesia, Magerunner, Darkest Dungeon, and Call of the Sea all feel wildly different and tackle wildly different subject matter, but all of them owe their existence to the mythos.

 

[Zombra]

So is this game any good?

I'm still near the beginning but enjoying it a lot. Even the most annoying character, the little kid with the unconvincing lisp, is growing on me. Mostly time spent in game is exploring environments, checking clues, having dialogues, spending skill points and eating people. A lot of time is spent in dialogue and cutscenes, so if you don't like listening to mediocre voice acting, you won't like this. I find it fun. My only gripe is that there is a huge and complicated cast of characters, and a thick codex with biographies, history, and a glossary, which is all great, but there's no "quest summary" that I've found. Current objectives will say "Find Joe Blow" but it's not always clear why I'm looking for him or sometimes even who he is - if I don't catch all the details in every cutscene, there's no way to review. Clues fly around like clouds of bats and I often find myself asking, "Wait, why is that other guy here, again?" Being old, dense, and often drunk means I could really use a decent in-game journal.

 

[Storyfag]

Troika only used the IP because Activision forced them to, but their goal all along was just to made a good game with the characteristic writing they were known for. They weren't lorejunkies writing something self-masturbatory.

Bitch please. The way Troika did the VtM lore justice is amazing.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Troika only used the IP because Activision forced them to, but their goal all along was just to made a good game with the characteristic writing they were known for. They weren't lorejunkies writing something self-masturbatory.

Bitch please. The way Troika did the VtM lore justice is amazing.

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP, since they clearly weren't already fans of it. The tone is completely different from the Paradox games and Troika rightfully keeps the idiosyncratic jargon and lore dumps to a minimum. Over on the Maven of the Eventide discord I've heard people say that it's not a good introduction to the IP. I think Troika would've done just as well with a different IP or an original IP they made themselves.

Remember, these were some of the same devs who worked on Fallout and Planescape: Torment. FO was a completely original IP and we know how that went. Planescape... Black Isle used a lot of canonical elements from the campaign setting, but they also introduced plenty of original ideas inspired by the setting that still feel like they fit it perfectly. The PST game is basically what put the tabletop setting on the map; it's considered a classic and even got a (admittedly controversial) spiritual sequel... whereas WotC has done nothing with the tabletop IP for decades.

I'm genuinely curious what kind of game Troika would've made if they hadn't been roped into using the license at Activision's behest, as well as the legacy of such a game in that imaginary alternate timeline.

 

[Grunker]

Troika only used the IP because Activision forced them to, but their goal all along was just to made a good game with the characteristic writing they were known for. They weren't lorejunkies writing something self-masturbatory.

Bitch please. The way Troika did the VtM lore justice is amazing.

They do so well by completely ignoring most of the retarded lore and just focusing on the setting's damned good essentials. The Kuei-Jin are the ultimate example - that setting is so bizarre and nonsensical, so they stick to "Eastern weird vampires" and only let the bananas lore through for 1 single moment of the game, and that's the Ming boss fight. Even then, they don't bother ever explaining why she turns into a weird tentacle monster and the game is properly better for having that wtf moment instead of actually going into the insanity behind it. In fact, most of the game's more esoteric moments - like Andrei and the stuff he says and what he turns into, are presented fully at face value. Thankfully gaming hadn't introduced the concept of obligatory lore codexes yet so you're just expected to go "ok i guess this dude just knows shit and turns into a weird fish blood monster" rather than delving into the weaker parts of the lore. It's the quintessential example of how a game got better by not deep diving into lore, as per Darth Roxor's brilliant article on the subject.

The same goes for the rest of the game though: it uses all the core strengths that the basic setting has while almost fully leaving out most of the in-depth stuff.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP

Biggest issue with the IP is the schizo mess that WoD is. If they kept each setting distinct instead of layering them onto each other, it might've been better. That said, the vamp one seems to be the best of the bunch (not that I've checked out too much of the others' lore mind you; perhaps the mage one might be interesting as well).

 

[Grunker]

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP

Biggest issue with the IP is the schizo mess that WoD is. If they kept each setting distinct instead of layering them onto each other, it might've been better. That said, the vamp one seems to be the best of the bunch (not that I've checked out too much of the others' lore mind you; perhaps the mage one might be interesting as well).

A few of the settings are great - hell, downright fantastic - at their basic level. They all break down as the lore gets more and more fleshed out - Vampire may even be the worst of the bunch in this regard. If you just play by the original ideas and ignore all the "deep lore", it's a great setting.

 

[Grunker]

For a practical example, take Pisha: surface level as used in Bloodlines, she's just a super spooky vampire who has to eat people and not just drink their blood. Clearly she has a lot of esoteric, arcane stuff going on with magic and baubles and artifacts but beyond that, she's just a flesh-eating scholar with bizarre morals. Her mystery is cool and compelling.

The game doesn't stop to explain how the Nagaraja are actually Chakravanti mages who fought during the Himalyan wars and then met the immortal mummy Inauhaten to be offered the Spell of Life and gained the assistance of liches, because guess what, it's not fucking relevant and it would only turn Pisha from cool spooky lady into lame DragonBall Z vampire.

If Bloodlines were made to day that shit would definetely be in some irrelevant Lore Codex and the player would get some measure of XP for filling out the page

 

[jackofshadows]

Infinitron not to all of them of course and I cannot recall where I've read about that sort of previews but here's an example https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099780730/vampire-the-masquerade-swansong-review

 

[Wesp5]

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP, since they clearly weren't already fans of it.

As far as I know most of the writing in Bloodlines was done by Brian Mitsoda, and when I look at Swansong, I can't believe they fired him from Bloodlines 2 for being too woke. Probably the opposite...

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Troika only used the IP because Activision forced them to, but their goal all along was just to made a good game with the characteristic writing they were known for. They weren't lorejunkies writing something self-masturbatory.

Bitch please. The way Troika did the VtM lore justice is amazing.

They do so well by completely ignoring most of the retarded lore and just focusing on the setting's damned good essentials. The Kuei-Jin are the ultimate example - that setting is so bizarre and nonsensical, so they stick to "Eastern weird vampires" and only let the bananas lore through for 1 single moment of the game, and that's the Ming boss fight. Even then, they don't bother ever explaining why she turns into a weird tentacle monster and the game is properly better for having that wtf moment instead of actually going into the insanity behind it. In fact, most of the game's more esoteric moments - like Andrei and the stuff he says and what he turns into, are presented fully at face value. Thankfully gaming hadn't introduced the concept of obligatory lore codexes yet so you're just expected to go "ok i guess this dude just knows shit and turns into a weird fish blood monster" rather than delving into the weaker parts of the lore. It's the quintessential example of how a game got better by not deep diving into lore, as per Darth Roxor's brilliant article on the subject.

The same goes for the rest of the game though: it uses all the core strengths that the basic setting has while almost fully leaving out most of the in-depth stuff.

Yes, this is what I believe. Thank you (and Roxor) for putting it so succinctly. I have run into so many fans who think "lore" automatically equates to quality and ignore everything else involved.

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP

Biggest issue with the IP is the schizo mess that WoD is. If they kept each setting distinct instead of layering them onto each other, it might've been better. That said, the vamp one seems to be the best of the bunch (not that I've checked out too much of the others' lore mind you; perhaps the mage one might be interesting as well).

There's also at least two hard reboots with separate continuities. I used to be super into that shit but eventually got disillusioned. There's a number of interesting ideas here and there but they're spread across several dozen different continuities and overshadowed by stupid shit, bad mechanics, and lore bloat. By far the best games IMO are Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil, because they focus on creating content for players to actually use rather than lore for lorejunkies to read and not play. The settings are extremely creative and present a bunch of interesting and wildly diverse and heavily customizable classes and factions. E.g. Vigil offers various organizations and clubs that hunt paranormal creatures: evil pharmaceutical corporations, anonymous internet forums, idle rich people who hunt monsters for sport, secret wings of the Vatican that employ antichrist candidates, secret wings of the USA government, secret societies of scholars dating back to Ancient Egypt, etc and you can also invent your own too. Lost is a mix of Dresden Files, Lost Girl, Tithe and Gaiman: you play as people who were abducted to Fairyland and escaped, now dealing with being part-fairy, alienated from mundane life, living in fear of being taken back, and gifted with wondrous supernatural powers bestowed by cosmic fate.

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP

Biggest issue with the IP is the schizo mess that WoD is. If they kept each setting distinct instead of layering them onto each other, it might've been better. That said, the vamp one seems to be the best of the bunch (not that I've checked out too much of the others' lore mind you; perhaps the mage one might be interesting as well).

A few of the settings are great - hell, downright fantastic - at their basic level. They all break down as the lore gets more and more fleshed out - Vampire may even be the worst of the bunch in this regard. If you just play by the original ideas and ignore all the "deep lore", it's a great setting.

You can also try the alternate continuity reboot "Requiem." It refreshes the original premise by, among other things, splitting your class and faction into different things. It has its annoying idiosyncrasies, particularly its pretentious jargon and terrible mechanics (especially in the second edition which tries to bolt on badly designed FATE-inspired mechanics), because this is still White Wolf. (I recommend using the rules from this free indie RPG instead and using the included guidelines to convert the stuff you like from whatever iterations of the IP.) Be warned, fans of the other vampire game hate it because it didn't have conversions of their favorite ninja clans on initial release or continue the metaplot/lore bloat, but I don't give a fuck and neither should you. It did accumulate its own lore bloat but it's scattered across dozens of books and not collected in any one place, so it's often falsely derided as having no lore... as if that's a bad thing.

That's a testament to Troika's writers rather than any inherent strength of the IP, since they clearly weren't already fans of it.

As far as I know most of the writing in Bloodlines was done by Brian Mitsoda, and when I look at Swansong, I can't believe they fired him from Bloodlines 2 for being too woke. Probably the opposite...

That doesn't mean the team didn't trade ideas. Black Isle and its descendants drew from a diverse pool of talent.

 

[Grunker]

I didn't much care for Requiem personally, since it destroys much of the political intrigue to focus on more personal subjects, which for me always were the weakest aspects of Vampire. I prefer playing basic bitch Modern using V20 or a similar edition.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Vigil offers various organizations and clubs that hunt paranormal creatures: evil pharmaceutical corporations, anonymous internet forums, idle rich people who hunt monsters for sport, secret wings of the Vatican that employ antichrist candidates, secret wings of the USA government, secret societies of scholars dating back to Ancient Egypt, etc and you can also invent your own too.

This does indeed sound great.