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World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Swansong - narrative RPG from The Council devs - now on Steam

RaggleFraggle

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I didn't much care for Requiem personally, since it destroys much of the political intrigue to focus on more personal subjects, which for me always were the weakest aspects of Vampire.
I got the opposite impression. I thought the covenants were a welcome innovation, at least in concept if not execution. I really wish the Vigil and Lost formulas had been applied here. The writers really hit their stride there. It's a key inspiration on my own writing, too.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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So how much C&C does this actually have? Is it like a Telltale game? And how often do you get to make dialogue choices, even if just for fluff with no real C&C?
 

Gradenmayer

Learned
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Jul 21, 2019
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So how much C&C does this actually have? Is it like a Telltale game? And how often do you get to make dialogue choices, even if just for fluff with no real C&C?
Did 3 post prologue levels- game has a lot of missable content that is hidden behind dialogue checks, blood spells and tech skills. Lots of fluff dialogue, it's marked as such with an arrow symbol, thankfully.

Both Old guy and crazy chick had cool investigate levels, with Malkavian having quite an impactful choice at the end (not an obvious one though).

Everything related to black chick sucked tho, it's a dragged out level with 0 interactibility, outside of the last couple dialogues.

So far it's quite engaging.
 

jackofshadows

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There's a lot of C&C, it's the main feature of the game I guess. The problem is you have to care about the characters at least somewhat for that to work but that's a real challenge. Also many choices are very lame/forced of the "talk to x or talk to y" category like in some crappy VN.
I wish Stanford was the main character. He is based as fuck.
:hypeship:
The ventru? Yeah, he's the only likable/amusing character in the whole game while he is suppose to be some kind of antagonist lol
 

RaggleFraggle

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If they can’t even imitate the facial animations in Bloodlines, a game that came out 18 years prior, then I’m never going to bother buying/playing it. Also, why the fuck do I need to read pages and pages of backstory and glossaries and shit? That’s bullshit. Characters should be able to speak for themselves and show through their actions. Shit, PST used cockney slang everywhere and didn’t need a dictionary. Did they hire the writer by soliciting DeviantArt OC creators?
 

Twiglard

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Also, why the fuck do I need to read pages and pages of backstory and glossaries and shit? That’s bullshit. Characters should be able to speak for themselves and show through their actions.

There's probably a word in liberal/dramatic arts that could express succintly as to what the characters are missing in this game, but I don't know it. It's like an entire dimension of making them seem like real people has been omitted when making the game. Maybe this is accurate to VtM lore (sure seems like it from watching L.A. By Night) but all characters in a game can't be one-note selfish businesslike. It needs to be balanced with more flavorful, casual ones. It's definitely made worse by having all the Camarilla members work in the same building, as there's no opportunity to further flesh them out. It's telling that the game's journal doesn't even have a section for mortals or vampires unaffiliated with the Prince's organization.

And the worst part of the game? You can't actually walk the streets and soak in the atmosphere. That was one thing I was actually looking into. The only real outdoor area (Anarch compound) looks so neutered as if it was made by slapping some premade assets together.
 

Reinhardt

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it will be codex goty. rename this pathetic subforum info "walking simulators and shitty potato shooters" already.
 

jackofshadows

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Too small scale/cramped nature of the game also hurts the section where we play as master obfuscator and changing uniforms like gloves. You walk up to the apartment entrance and two guards turn you around. You like "okay", going into room literally 2 meters away and go back as "officer" with the same face and they aren't batting an eye. Next you copy a uniform of a forensics guy, a FBI agent… No one asks ID or anything, that's the same apartment and cops are unable to count how many people entered/leave? Game's conditionalities and all but this mechanic's obviously better work in a far more open enviroment.

Not to mention the tutorial mission where you're supposed to find a certain person and instead of using skills or trying to convince anyone to give information you could've just checked every office in that small building.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Maybe this is accurate to VtM lore (sure seems like it from watching L.A. By Night) but all characters in a game can't be one-note selfish businesslike.
This is one of the many reasons why I don’t give a shit about lore anymore. Rather than trying to make a good game that works on its own merits, has colorful characters, tells a compelling story, etc, they make the game as an advertisement for lore.

Lore is not a substitute for storytelling. At best it’s a setup for an actual story, like those lore dumps in old video game manuals. At worst it’s pointlessly reciting facts by rote as though we’re still in school taking tests on how well we can memorize our textbooks without ever meaningfully applying that information.

Also, yeah, I don’t find stories where everyone is an asshole compelling anymore. Sometimes I want to play dark superheroes or angels in the modern day or something along those lines. Not everything needs to be grimdark grimderp. Quite frankly I’m burned out on grimderp and have been for years. I’m not an angsty teenager anymore.
 

jackofshadows

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Also, yeah, I don’t find stories where everyone is an asshole compelling anymore. Sometimes I want to play dark superheroes or angels in the modern day or something along those lines. Not everything needs to be grimdark grimderp. Quite frankly I’m burned out on grimderp and have been for years. I’m not an angsty teenager anymore.
That's the thing - characters in this game aren't even proper assholes. They seem more like a bunch of mean youngsters at best who try to act mature. Especially that's glaring when oogabooga gets captured by tremere guys, they were swarming down on her like a group of schoolboys (or as they're about to gangbang her, she conveniently lose her memory afterwards). Or cut-scenes where the "swan" (the prince) show others who's the boss here (very :roll: because the scenes are 100% nonironical). Or mr. "I don't want to talk about it" main ventru char which rather comes off as a corporat rat than an old powerful vampire. Compare any of that to Smiling Jack. Is he an asshole? Absolutely. But what a magnificient asshole!
 

Harthwain

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That's the thing - characters in this game aren't even proper assholes. They seem more like a bunch of mean youngsters at best who try to act mature.
Is profanity a thing in Swansong? Because in my experience the main reason why assholes sound fake is because they aren't allowed to be real assholes. You need full creative freedom in order to pull this out (as well as good voice-acting). [PROTOTYPE] and The Witcher are the best examples of proper assholery that I can think of right away. I still remember Shadowman telling the big bad guy "You bastard!". I mean, it really doesn't convey the emotions the character is supposed to have when he's trying to insult his debater when he's saying stuff like this. In Starcraft 1 at the very least Raynor tries to insult Duke properly ("I'll give you an angle, you slimy Confederate piece of sh-..."). He does get cut off by Mengsk and ends up not delivering the whole piece, but it's handled in a way that makes the whole exchange feel much more natural than using cheap substitutes.
 

jackofshadows

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Is profanity a thing in Swansong?
Well yes, for example there's plenty of "fucks" during the short lesbo-drama but obviously you gotta properly use that stuff. Imagine this - they don't properly use it. I'd compare approach to The Witcher tv show in case you've seen that monstrocity.

To be fair, big chunk of dialogues here happens in a safe zone and between vampires so everyone act restrained - that's natural. But swearing or no swearing, the dialogues are very sterile, like even that feminist reviewer said there's no place for humour or sexiness. Same for assholery. All follow their plot paths and deliver their lines in the most boring way possible.
 

Storyfag

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Is profanity a thing in Swansong?
Well yes, for example there's plenty of "fucks" during the short lesbo-drama but obviously you gotta properly use that stuff. Imagine this - they don't properly use it. I'd compare approach to The Witcher tv show in case you've seen that monstrocity.

I had a theory about that, the other day. They didn't go an inch outside of "fuck" because every other type of insult would likely be considered "problematic". Bastard? Oh noes, cant demean people of illegitimate origins. Boody hell? Oh noes, what if someone is from an atheistic background and gets offended by the religious meaning? Son of a bitch? Oh noes, can't demean sex workers. Etc, etc.

Any swear words other than "fuck" to be found in Swansong?
 

jackofshadows

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Any swear words other than "fuck" to be found in Swansong?
No, I don't think so. At least cannot recall anything worthwhile. And I think your theory is correct: they sanitize swearing for sure. Simplest example would be the racial slurs.
 

Gradenmayer

Learned
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Jul 21, 2019
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Main issue is not all that political crap. Main issue- all these bloodsuckers are boring trash.

Story revolves around trying to save their domain in Boston, and it just doesn't work because you want all of them to die.


Galeb- supposedly has 300 years of exploring the world, running businesses, performing assassinations. That doesn't come through at all in-game, because for 90% of it- he acts like someone shoved a holy cross up his bum; constantly angry and annoyed. All of his personality is being serious and white knighting for an asian gal.

Emem- the worst offender. Her story is that she was a performer and a seducer, that runs successful businesses and occasionally helps outlawed kindreds. 90% of Emem's story is about her lesbian relationship with a character that is more interesting than her (not a high bar mind you).


Lahsey(?)- the most interesting one of the bunch. Her story actually somewhat revolves around her past and personality, with a decent mystery added on top. The only decent vamp character.

The rest of the NPC cast- absolute assholes. Every single one of them is just a backstabbing, annoying, scumbag. And that would be fine, if you were against other kindred.
Issue is though- main opposing force- are humans, who want to wipe all vamps out, which no one playing this would see as a bad thing.

Humans are the ones shown crying over their dead teammates/friends, while none of the non-player kindred give a fuck about anyone outside of their own self-gain. Just makes me want to kill the bloodsuckers and let the antagonists win, you know.

Dialogue is decently written and c&c is quite well done, with visible impact of your decisions throughout the story. It just that these characters are trash and it's not because of their race, wokeness, haircuts and nationality. They are just boring.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Compare any of that to Smiling Jack. Is he an asshole? Absolutely. But what a magnificient asshole!
I feel like you're confusing "vulgar" with "jerkass." Jack is friendly with the PC and doesn't lie to or manipulate the PC... not specifically.

The rest of the NPC cast- absolute assholes. Every single one of them is just a backstabbing, annoying, scumbag. And that would be fine, if you were against other kindred.
Issue is though- main opposing force- are humans, who want to wipe all vamps out, which no one playing this would see as a bad thing.

Humans are the ones shown crying over their dead teammates/friends, while none of the non-player kindred give a fuck about anyone outside of their own self-gain. Just makes me want to kill the bloodsuckers and let the antagonists win, you know.
Oof. In Bloodlines the various vampire bosses were transparently sending the PC on errands in petty ploys against each other (e.g. at one point you're sent to convince a critic to give a restaurant a bad review so that a boss can swoop in and buy it out), but most of them had more to their characters than just that. They had hobbies, love interests, hang ups, contrasting desires, unfinished business... they felt complicated, like real people.
 

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