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Interview J.E. Sawyer Interview By Grupo97

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
circ said:
I do question Obsidian as much as any other modern developer, especially since yes, it does seem like they're beginning with ready made content most of the time.

Oooh, parallel time!

KoTOR II, took a year(?) to two years to develop, depending on the platform. It recycled most(?) of the music and random VO from KoTOR. Most of the textures from KoTOR. Used the same engine. Recycled character models. Did minor interface tweaks. Included a new story with tons of cut content, a few new areas, some old ones were recycled with slightly altered content. And this took a year to two years(!) to deliver in a half unfinished state? Seriously.

Fallout: New Vegas, anyone? In just ONE year this time around!

BioWare and Bethesda have no imagination, or in some cases even talent. Obsidian has both, yet you wonder what they do during their development cycles. Drink soda pop?

Bethesda's talent left years ago.
BioWare never really had any except for what they were initially handed by BIS with design concepts taken from Fallout for the speech system. It really was just going to be a shitty non-Forgotten Realms RTS game before the speech system, the D&D license, and more were insisted on to improve the title/engine. If it wasn't for that, likely nobody would know of them today.
Obsidian plays on the forums, which is why I hope I scared off JE to go back to do some productive work.
 

BearBomber

Scholar
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
566
Ok, we all know that RPGs are in shitty state now. Does anybody know what to do now?
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
BearBomber said:
Ok, we all know that RPGs are in shitty state now. Does anybody know what to do now?

Remember to wipe and flush afterwards?
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
circ said:
KoTOR II, took a year(?) to two years to develop, depending on the platform.
13 months, not depending on a platform.

NWN 2 took three to four years to develop(?).
Two years.

BioWare and Bethesda have no imagination, or in some cases even talent. Obsidian has both, yet you wonder what they do during their development cycles. Drink soda pop?
Why do you think Obsidian has talent or imagination? Just because their writing is less stupid at times doesn't really make them any better - not mentioning that they've never created anything new and even managed to make worse what was already bad. Even MotB was messed up by the retarded NWN2 combat + epic levels ruining already bad gameplay and character development.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
BearBomber said:
Rosh said:
BearBomber said:
Ok, we all know that RPGs are in shitty state now. Does anybody know what to do now?

Remember to wipe and flush afterwards?

I don't understand that metaphor.

Shitty, toilet paper, flushing a toilet?

Ahhh, I forgot I suck at toilet humor. :lol:
 

circ

Arcane
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
11,470
Location
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
MetalCraze said:
Why do you think Obsidian has talent or imagination? Just because their writing is less stupid at times doesn't really make them any better - not mentioning that they've never created anything new and even managed to make worse what was already bad. Even MotB was messed up by the retarded NWN2 combat + epic levels ruining already bad gameplay and character development.

Because it consists partially of industry veterans that have been involved in some decent, to excellent games. I do wonder though where it's gone after what they've released.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
circ said:
Because it consists partially of industry veterans that have been involved in some decent, to excellent games. I do wonder though where it's gone after what they've released.

I believe they thought they didn't have to try for PS:T quality anymore once they found out they can do Feargus SLAM DUNK!s and still have loads of loyal fans, and could get even more for dumbing down their games and copy whatever BioWare is doing. Mass Protocol, for example.

We can only hope EA acquires them too.
 

The Feral Kid

Prophet
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
1,189
circ said:
BioWare and Bethesda have no imagination, or in some cases even talent. Obsidian has both, yet you wonder what they do during their development cycles. Drink soda pop?

Until the day Obsidian will create something completely of their own worth mentioning, based on their own engine, I'll stick to believing Bioware are more talented and imaginative than Obsidian. Besides it's Bio's "imagination" (among other things) Obsidian have been using so far. As for Beth, I don't even she the point in bringing them to the discussion. They're way way lower even from the worst Obsidian and Bio have to offer.
 

BearBomber

Scholar
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
566
Rosh said:
BearBomber said:
Rosh said:
BearBomber said:
Ok, we all know that RPGs are in shitty state now. Does anybody know what to do now?

Remember to wipe and flush afterwards?

I don't understand that metaphor.

Shitty, toilet paper, flushing a toilet?

Ahhh, I forgot I suck at toilet humor. :lol:

I thought that you meant that wy are responsible for the state of the market and we should abandon all hopes (wiping) for improvements, and then forget about it forever (flushing).
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
Rosh said:
Shitty, toilet paper, flushing a toilet?

Ahhh, I forgot I suck at toilet humor. :lol:

I got the joke.

:sucks dick of a poster with an 02 join date to get codex cred:
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,592
BearBomber said:
Ok, we all know that RPGs are in shitty state now. Does anybody know what to do now?
Don't buy shit.
And no, "I liked it for what it was" isn't an excuse.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
BG was not developed 'at' Black Isle. That's fuckin' a bullshit lie. It was published 'at' Black Isle. WTF? BIO developed it. Stealing credit for others' work? WTF?

Next claim will be that BIO published BG2, and they developed PST.

R00fles!
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
I don't give a shit about game studios or publisher names. The only thing i care for is the people who are working in the games. Guys like JESawyer, Chris Avellone or DGaider deserve some credit. The canceled Fallout 3 was shaping to be an awesome game.
 

MLMarkland

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
1,663
Location
Malibu, CA
Rosh said:
When video games come even close to the widespread appeal of watching TV (still nowhere close), then perhaps your representative samples might be a bit more on target. Until then, the video game audience is still the video game audience, either you shell out $300+ to play video games or you don't. There really is no such thing as "casual".

My post doesn't really have anything to do with television audience vs. game audience.

It's obvious that there is a substantial size difference between hardcore (or whatever you want to call it) and casual audiences.

There's what? 90 million DS's out there? Nintendogs is the best selling title on the DS. If I can sell a game to 5% of that 90 million, I'm fucking awesome. If I sell a game to 5% of Xbox 360 owners, I'm just fucked.

I'm pretty sure more Nintendogs units have been sold than Playstation 3 systems.

The scale difference is even more staggering if you consider all portables. There's over one-quarter billion portable devices in play worldwide just counting DS, PSP, GBA and iPhone.

You guys can get all angry about the figures behind the direction the market moves, but that doesn't change them. I don't play Nintendogs. I play Fallout. But I'm not going to scream and holler and get butthurt about Nintendogs selling a lot or pretend that it doesn't impact what people are willing to invest their time and money into (or that it has impact on what "mainstream" really means).

Shannow said:
Forgive me, but you pulled those numbers out of your arse. You might as well say 20-50% and 15-30%.

Yes. The accuracy of my wild-ass-guesses at percentages is probably way off, but the exact numbers are irrelevant. There is, inarguably, a full order of magnitude difference between the size of the RPG market a decade ago and the size of the broader market today.

Hardcore RPGs are more niche than more simplistic games, just like R-rated adult dramas are more niche than Transformers movies.

It doesn't mean there's not room to make both, it's a wide world. But to succeed, you have to accept and recognize reality and then figure out how to work within it and/or change it.
 

circ

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Jun 4, 2009
Messages
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Location
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
Nintendogs is the best selling game because it comes (or came anyway) prepackaged with the DS. That's actually the only game I have for my DS. Although this new 'classic RPG' wave coming from Japan has me intrigued.
 

MLMarkland

Arcane
Developer
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Messages
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Location
Malibu, CA
circ said:
Nintendogs is the best selling game because it comes (or came anyway) prepackaged with the DS. That's actually the only game I have for my DS. Although this new 'classic RPG' wave coming from Japan has me intrigued.

Let's look at a variety of the top selling Wii and DS titles.

English Training: Have Fun Improving Your Skills!
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
Cooking Mama
Clubhouse Games
Hannah Montana
Imagine: Fashion Designer
Imagine: Babyz (How is babyz formed?)
Personal Trainer: Cooking
a variety of Pokemon titles
Carnival Games
Big Brain Academy
Animal Crossing: City Folk
High School Musical
a bunch of Mario and Zelda-related titles
some Rock Band and Guitar Hero titles

These are all 2-3 million plus sellers.

Classic RPGs on the DS is cool, but that doesn't really change the point.

The point isn't what should be made here... the point is what people are willing to invest their money in. There is a finite amount of capital available for the development of video games and that capital is going to be spent on the things that yield the biggest bang for the buck.

Some folks will carve out niche markets -- classic RPGs for example AND given the right dynamics, some of those niche markets will explode into the mainstream (only to start the cycle all over again).
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,241
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
Tails said:
Developers care more about cash and keeping going on, then trying to do something risky & innovative and well, the masses don't require (more dislike) anything challenging. For them games should be just for relax and give satisfaction, in most simple way of course. Until those masses won't evolve and demand something harder then following way points, there is no hope. Sure, there still be some indie developer that will release something good ,great or even amazing! quality that old/hardcore/demanding players will play. Still, you have to dive in loads of crap products to find such gems.

It is not on the onus of Developers, it is because they are stuck in the Publishers/Marketing Department that TELL the Developers what game to make.

Granted say as in Valves case, if a AAA Dev Company took the time to do a hard-core RPG, without a publisher, and it sold incredibly well...
 
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I am guessing that is has something to do with them being ex military (at least many of them) as to why a much smaller niche than hardcore RPG's is being quite successful?

Of course, I am talking about hardcore wargames and strategy. If anybody dares to tell me that this crowd has more potential buyers I will rip their throats out, and yet...

http://www.matrixgames.com/

http://www.battlefront.com/

http://www.hpssims.com/

http://www.paradoxplaza.com/

Along with other smaller houses.

The Hardcore RPG crowd and developers are either lazy, unable to form the proper units in which to exploit the situation (this goes back to their probably lack of military experience) or plain ignorant when it comes to business.

I am glad Rosh is here, along with any other figures in the industry, because you all need to learn something: how to consolidate, team up and use those strengths together. The amount of times I read Rosh's vomiting (which I agree with largely), VD's rubbish over needing to make the game a certain way for sales, and other purile rants by illuminaries makes me chuckle and throw up a little each time.

If a smaller niche can carve out enough power to make as many competing publishers as those I have cited, what have the hardcore RPG industry been doing with itself besides blaring at each other, "discussing" game design, and other Ancient Greek pastimes of sitting about eating grapes, while each of them hacks away on their little enterprise? Total laziness, total lack of enterprise and total lack of any sort of ability to pool their resources.

Rosh, VD, whoever: Get off your arses and do something. Hardcore wargaming is making the lot of you look like stupid ninnies. I never bothered saying this earlier, but since there is an old timer who I remember from the old BIS boards, amongst other places, and who says themselves that "they talk to the old crowd" I thought I might as well hit you with a big stick.

Stop lampooning the children, look at what hardcore wargaming is doing, feel ashamed, and get your shit together. I won't bother repeating myself. Join the military if you lack these kinds of skill? Go and email the guys who run these wargaming sites and ask them for advice maybe? Just do something apart from whinge, moan and salivate over the old days. You can make the new days so much better without having to appeal to the new market, and some of them will probably come on board eventually anyway.

Edit: Oh, and one last piece of advice should you get off your arses. Stay true! If any of the above publishers started heading for mainstream sales (like Interplay, Origin, etc) they would fall on their backsides too. Innovate as your fanbase suggests, don't chase the big money. Enough should come to you if you are anyway decent, as these small, hardcore wargaming devs will tell you.

Edit 2: Damn it, this needs to be a new thread. I don't want to have to repeat this.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
MLMarkland said:
My post doesn't really have anything to do with television audience vs. game audience.

When it comes to market saturation into the "mainstream" that TV and other media can be represented as, the video game industry isn't close to done yet. See the point of each decade growing larger, and to have the child-like mentality that this is the pinnacle, the peak, the end of the saturation, is hopelessly naive. The next generation will consider this one "hardcore" and "old", kind of how Final Fantasy VII is called a "Classic".

Games since the 70s have had TV ads, I remember the Sears Super Pong console and others. I remember them being in magazines, as well as having their own publications (if you want to try and quantify it by that measure as well) by 1981 on (and one I looked up was from 1974).

Let me also point out something you decided to ignore:

Until then, the video game audience is still the video game audience, either you shell out $300+ to play video games or you don't. There really is no such thing as "casual".

The industry has grown, and is still growing.

The number of people who drop the kind of cash to play a single title and then never buy more is extremely limited (I've seen original Playstation sales figures back in the 90s when the same ignorant arguments as yours were made).

There really is no "hardcore" anymore, at least by the publisher definition (or ever really was, unless a specific genre was ALL they bought, and then you could be known as a hardcore [Insert Genre Here] player). You buy a console and some titles, and play them, you're a gamer. You buy a PC rig able to play modern games - it is highly doubtful you are going to play just one game for that kind of investment except for some cases, and even THEN you can still be considered "hardcore". Even a WoW player could be considered "hardcore" if they buy more computer kit to play the game, and Blizzard does consider them as much. You don't require much to dink around in the leveling content, but in raids and more you need a certain level of computer specs. One could also argue that buying hardware to play a game would make someone hardcore, as they were spending further income to play a game.

In other words, grow up, kid. Get used to the idea of the industry growing past you and going for the next generation of mass idiots, which have been around each generation since...PONG! (Though I have to say by children's programming differences in the 70s and now...today's kids are fucking STUPID.) Your arguments are hardly any different from those in the 90s.

The CRPGs have always been regarded as the intellectual genre, and gaming has been part of the mainstream since the 70s - just growing larger. Origin, Sir-Tech, Interplay, and 3DO, among others, were the mainstream of the CRPG developers. CRPGs then regularly drew in new people because of the complexity and depth they offered over other genres, but they were never really "niche". Now, the "CRPG" publishers are trying to subvert what the genre represents, but without actually offering what the genre implies.

Just like their false claims in the 90s about action games being "epic, deep RPGs" which brought about Fallout.

Also, implying something while failing to deliver is technically fraud. So help the publishers if they are ever held to truth in advertising laws. PR departments will be shitting bricks as they wouldn't know how to operate anymore.

Here's some irony:

The Nintendo version of Ultima III is released in Japan, amidst a media blitz that sees Lord British splashed across billboards and TV screens.

Niche? Shut the fuck up.

*burns the rest of the straw man argument*

Speaking of reading disability, how have you been lately, Volourn?
 

Fat Dragon

Arbiter
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local brothel
jackson4.gif
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
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Finnegan's Wake
circ said:
Game released unfinished with game breaking bugs. Bugs that make you wonder how Gamespot could give it a Best story award when the game was unfinishable.
Gamebreaking? Wasn't aware of those. The only major bug I was aware of shortly after release was that you couldn't actually find ore-seams for your miners.

MLMarkland said:
It doesn't mean there's not room to make both, it's a wide world. But to succeed, you have to accept and recognize reality and then figure out how to work within it and/or change it.
And that's just it. It's not a question of succeeding but of people wanting to get fucking rich. Seeing lots of $$$ without right knowing how to get it. Combining different markets and calling the conglomerate "mainstream" won't do either. How many mmos tried to emulate WOW's success? How many succeeded? How many nDS players will move from handheld to PC gaming simply because PC games get dumbed down for their sakes (not saying that they actually asked for it either)?
If the devs go: Game they'd like to make --> market. If they have talent, funding and a little luck they'll be successful.
If they look at "the" market and then simply decide where the most cash lies they'll produce shit and will not neccessarly be any more successful. In fact, studios that consciously go "mainstream" have a nice big fail rate, as Blackadder pointed out.
 

MLMarkland

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
1,663
Location
Malibu, CA
Rosh, if you want to fall on your sword about the market for complex role playing games not being smaller than simplistic, casual titles go for it - it's a dumb thing to argue about. If you really care though, you should go expend your energy arguing with people who don't frequent the RPG Codex -- those are the people you need to convince. Here you are just ranting to people who mostly agree with your end goal, even if they think your arguments are hyperbole that rely on a raft of logical fallacies.

Shannow, most developers don't self-finance their titles and are reliant on publishers to pay the bills. Developers willing or able to operate in more speculative environments could achieve the kinds of things you want to see.

Regardless, I'm done contributing to the derailment of this thread.
 

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