Lionheart: As good as it gets

[Vikjunk]

Hell, all you had to do is look at who Saint was responding in his last post to know that it was you that was responding back to him...

 

[SexExitium]

 

[Marc Derell]

....

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

I have several problems with this type of thing. I'm not sure how many apply to Lionheart.

• Using stock fantasy elements. Taking an Elf paradigm and saying "What would they be like in our disjuncted world?" and coming up with Sylvants is not originality. Neither is taking dragons and applying a new rationale for their existence.
• Formulaic stories are not original. They are merely an exercise in rearragement and substitution. How many meddling with occult>>>unleashing evil>>>need for a hero plots do you think are out there already?
• Characitures are not characters. Having someone wear their motives like a brightly painted mask is just plain annoying. Even the evil people are carefully sinister or blatantly extraneous, just to sabotage any possiblity of their getting away with it.

What would you have expected to see there? It's not Sci-Fi, for sure.... Demons instead of Dragons? Isn't it similar anyway?

I find this comment really worrying. Fantasy is a genre, not a template. The only thing to limit originality is your own imagination. Check out these settings:

• A Song of Ice and Fire
• Six Duchies
• The Isle
• Sword of Shadows
• The Guardian Cycle
• The Three Worlds

All of them fantasy, all of them good, all of them written in the last few years and not a jrrism amongst them. They demonstrate that originality within the bounds of the fantasy genre is quite possible.

I'll grant you that CRPGs are not often given the same scope for effort spent on the setting, but that should only effect depth and completeness of detail, not originality.

 

[Deathy]

The only fantasy CRPG with a halfway original setting that I have *ever* played was Geneforge.
I really can't stop singing that game praises, it really is fantastic, and if more CRPG's tried to emulate (not plaigarise) it, I'd be truly happy.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The only fantasy CRPG with a halfway original setting that I have *ever* played was Geneforge.
I really can't stop singing that game praises, it really is fantastic, and if more CRPG's tried to emulate (not plaigarise) it, I'd be truly happy.

Geneforge is a fantastic example of a new spin on fantasy. Really, the closest monster thing you have to a traditional fantasy game in Geneforge is the Drayke. They're basically tiny dragons, and they're intelligent because they were designed to be intelligent by the Shapers who shaped them. However, there's absolutely nothing about them that's magical. They're just genetically engineered, large lizards who breathe fire or ice, and may or may not be intelligent.

Not only that, but Draykes are obsolete in terms of the ones you see in Geneforge, because they tended to "Go rogue". The game says that most of the Draykes that aren't on Sucia have been re-Shaped to be more utilitarian, such as the boat that brings you to Sucia in the first place. It's just a Drayke with a flat back and not very intelligent.

Draykes can't use magic because all creations are designed without the genetic ability to cast magic and therefore, over power their Shaper creators.

This is taking something that's traditional high fantasy and putting a highly unique spin on it, and it's pretty much the only monster in Geneforge that you can say has clear high fantasy roots. I guess you could also argue that Battle Alphas and Battle Betas are high fantasy "giants", but they're designed for front line, melee combat. Size and strength would be a plus to that. They serve their function and serve it well.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Huh.
No one is defending Arcanum against Geneforge?
Odd.
How about Arcanum's usage of magic/technology as a metaphore for the classist struggle?
Or the fact that, while it did have several high fantasy roots, most of them where scientificly explainable? I even enjoyed the "odd rhythmic vibration" that shows a creature to be of magical nature or not.
In my view, Arcanum was simply the better game.

 

[Marc Derell]

....

 

[Vikjunk]

Arcanum isn't totally original. It is a lot different from Shadowrun is several ways though, hell Lionheart is closer to Shadowrun then Arcanum was. Arcanum was a medieval fantasy world that went into an industrial revolution like Castle Falkenstein was but Lionheart and Shadowrun had it where a magic all of a sudden become part of a non-magical world. The only thing that really set Arcanum apart from other Fantasy games is that magic and technology don’t work together because technology depended on the way the world works naturally and magic changes the way things work in a erratic way. And people have a field around them that effects how well magic or tech works depending on which one they focused on.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Geneforge was diffirent for the sake of being diffirent- and in most cases the gameworld did not work. I fealt, more often than not, that if you could just make anykind of creature, than why not make some sort of uber-powerful god that is commanded by your slightest whim?
I loved it how they added something amazing to the Vicotrain hatred of nature- they expanded on this to make it a hatred of magic. Jesus, I love Arcanum!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Huh.
No one is defending Arcanum against Geneforge?
Odd.
How about Arcanum's usage of magic/technology as a metaphore for the classist struggle?
Or the fact that, while it did have several high fantasy roots, most of them where scientificly explainable? I even enjoyed the "odd rhythmic vibration" that shows a creature to be of magical nature or not.
In my view, Arcanum was simply the better game.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/steampunk/

But yeah, Arcanum was a break from the status quo. Of course, the game balance in it didn't make it that much of a break since magic totally owns tech in that game.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Am I the only one who liked tech in the game?
Anyway, and what, Geneforge was the paragon of game balance?

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

No, I liked the tech side. I've never cared about being totally owned

The fantasy side of Arcanum was bog standard stock stuff, but the tech side was very fresh - somewhere between Jules Verne and the Gibson/Sterling Steampunk of The Difference Engine

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

You see, I have to disagree.
While on the one hand, you have geneforge that is High Fantasy in all but name. You are stranded on an Island, the Shapers rule the world and the magie people go around making stuff.
While on the other hand, in Arcanum you have a self admitadly High Fantasy world that is completly diffirent. You have the tragic, loosing struggle against Technology, you have ancient magical artificts being "all the rage" in the Industrialist part of Tarant, and you have the reactionary Dark Elf society, who worship a false dark "god" who turns out to have repented and is fighting against the evil one who wants to destroy everone so they can enter the equivilent of Nirvana.
Is that anywhere in Geneforge?
In fact, in my view, I love the High Fantasy aspects of Arcanum just because they are in such a diffirent context.
Anyway, you want a totally original fantasy world, you will probably have to go to Shiny's Giants or Sacrifice.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

While on the one had I have not played Geneforge, on the other hand I spent a lot of time wincing in Arcanum at the Dwarves' Scottish accents and tendency to become fixated about beards. I also found Orcs predictably hostile and Elves unsurprisingly tending to look down on me from there arboreal perspective.

The mesh of fantasy and Victorian society was very well done, and I realise there is a strong possibility that using familiar archetypes was very beneficial in that it brought out its novelty. I'm just sooooooo tired of Elves and their chums in CRPG.

It worries me that the bastards are damn near immortal. How will we ever be free of them? Everytime I see one from now on, I'm going to shout "Fuck off to the Blessed Isles! You're not welcome anymore!"

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Jesus, I thought the Elves in Arcanum where some of the best done Elves ever!

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Yes, they lived in trees, had an affinity for magic and their ears were nice and pointy. They had my little tin Elfometer whistling like a kettle.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

No no, not that.
The tradgedy of them.
Tolkien created the Elves as a symbol of innocince, and that is what they where.
This is the only game to do this sucsessfully.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You see, I have to disagree.
While on the one hand, you have geneforge that is High Fantasy in all but name. You are stranded on an Island, the Shapers rule the world and the magie people go around making stuff.

Uhhh.. What?! Are you sure you played the game? They had guns(thorn batons), they had computers(Servant Minds), they had genetic enhancement(canisters and Geneforge), intelligent sentries(thorn turrets), smart mines(fungal mines), and so on.

Magic was the tool for science in Geneforge. Specifically, biomechanics which you've probably seen in Star Trek and Babylon 5! That's hardly a HIGH FANTASY concept there.

While on the other hand, in Arcanum you have a self admitadly High Fantasy world that is completly diffirent. You have the tragic, loosing struggle against Technology, you have ancient magical artificts being "all the rage" in the Industrialist part of Tarant, and you have the reactionary Dark Elf society, who worship a false dark "god" who turns out to have repented and is fighting against the evil one who wants to destroy everone so they can enter the equivilent of Nirvana.

That's been done before, though. In fact, there are even settings which mix fantasy and pure Sci-Fi, like Warhammer 40k.

I even posted a link to the GURPS Steampunk page, which was out long before Arcanum.

The whole idea of magic giving way to technology is nothing new, really. It's a neat setting, sure. Hardly a new one, though.

Is that anywhere in Geneforge?

Is there a point anywhere in your post?

Anyway, you want a totally original fantasy world, you will probably have to go to Shiny's Giants or Sacrifice.

Shiny didn't make Giants. Planet Moon did.

http://www.planetmoon.com/

And really, I wouldn't call either of them, "original games", in terms of setting or gameplay. Though, I will say that Giants was a damned good game.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

My point was not really "Wow, Fantasy AND Sci Fi! Wow!"
It was more the usage of fantasy as a metaphore, not unlike mutants in FO.
Sure, both Elves and Mutants are cliches in thier respective genres, but when used to symbolize something much greater, they become insanly unique.
And I have only gone through about 1/8 of Geneforge. To be honest, the graphics hurt my eyes. I mean, come on, it makes Ultima 6 look like Doom III. I still feel guilty about not finishing it, though, dispite the graphics.
And yeah, I know what BioMechanics are.
Every fan of Alex Garden should know what it entails!

 

[Deathy]

You shouldn't talk about Geneforge if you haven't completed the game, CBR.
That's a real no-no. You're a bad monkey.
Towards the middle of Geneforge, you get to find out exactly how the Shapers operate their research islands. Containment areas and lockdowns really make it look similar to modern scientific practice. The whole genetic engineering thing mixed in with psuedo-science and magic really makes the setting unique.

Where in Arcanum, you have traditional fantasy elements in an industrial revolution, old cliches in a new world.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Where in Arcanum, you have traditional fantasy elements in an industrial revolution, old cliches in a new world.

Stop saying that!
It is like calling FO's game world cliched!
It is not a cliche if it is a metaphore for something!
It is like calling The Godfather a typical mobster movie!
YOU DONT DO IT!
YOU DONT!
And yeah, I should play geneforge.
But Iam still trying to get through half a dozen RPGies.

 

[Deathy]

So what happens if the metaphor used is cliched?
Does that make it any less cliched?

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Arcanum's metaphore cliched?
Some sort of joke?
Sure, the metaphores for all the High Fantasy races are cliched, but the context- the enviormentalist against the republicans, the preservationists and the "move on"s.
I have no idea how you can call Arcanum's metaphores cliches.

 

[Deathy]

You were referring to the traditional fantasy races and the metaphors inherent in them.
Not the metaphors unique to Arcanum's setting (ie: Orcs and Half Ogres as slaves).
The use of Elves and Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings are all pulled straight out of traditional fantasy cliche. So what if it all has an industrial twist to it?