Tim Cain didn't want to do FO2 and thought PS:T was a JRPG

[dolio]

in traditional western RPGs, your character doesn't matter

Sure he/she does. Your character is the only person in the entire universe who can complete all the trivial fetch/kill stuff quests that everyone's handing out.

 

[bhlaab]

I have never convinced anyone on the forums before AFAIK.

Nobody has, thats why this forum is here. For people to try and fail at changing minds.

I see what you're saying, but there are plenty of JRPGs with large overworld areas that function similarly. I've always found a focus on town-hubs, NPC interaction, and non-combat solutions to problems to be a bigger hallmark of the western rpg than anything else. And planescape has got those things in spades.

If anything, I'd say Baldur's Gate is the more "jrpg" of the two.

 

[PrzeSzkoda]

Honestly, what cRPG made before, say, 1995 takes a different route from "kill monsters, get loot"? Story was a backdrop to have you kill things and get stronger. This "LARP"ing RPG like Fallout is more of a new thing. (Unless you consider Wasteland more focused on Fallouting than killing&looting, I don't)

Try Darklands for more Fallout-like LARPing, not exactly the same thing, but somehow related nonetheless methinks.

Edit: It's not different from ignoring Beregost, because it's unlikely you will - they're on the way, laid out right there for you. Something that you're obviously intended to do doesn't really cut it against what I said (IMO). However, you aren't given the choice of ceasing your journey to find yourself to go kill monsters in the wilderness, or search for quests in distant forests. This kind of thing I find integral for western RPGs, and they all should have them in some form or another.

Time for some uncalled-for sophistry. What if a western cRPG takes place in a single dungeon, as it used to happen more often than not?

Look at it this way: you might not be able to go looking for werwolves to rape in PS:T, but you can join a faction if your heart so desires. You don't have to join any single faction if you don't want to, and you can ignore their questlines anyhoo.

Everything you do in PS:T is somehow related to the main character.
Everything you do in most western RPGs (when they were good) is usually not-related to him. They are much less personal. PS:T acts on the personal level - you get new memories and glimpses of yourself even during mundane quests all the time - in traditional western RPGs, your character doesn't matter - he isn't given personality usually, aside of his face, appearance and class, race and weapon.

And my point is, if you're gonna' call PS:T a "western jRPG", you'd have to call Baldur's Gate 2 (and Baldur's Gate 1, too, for the matter), NWN 2 (OC, I'm looking at you and your bugassed scriptfest) and a shitload of a crapload of other cRPGs created in the so-called West the same. And that'd make the number of "tr00" western cRPGs very limited at best.

Anyhoo, TNO is not given any set personality per se; he just gets a very extensive history. His personality is up to the player (totally written into the whole "what can change the naturez of a mans" bit).

 

[Jasede]

What I am trying to say is this:

I approach PS:T from a jRPG perspective - you from a CRPG perspective.

I think we only argue because the truth is somewhere in the middle and we both might not want that - you don't want PS:T to be sullied by having stronger than average jRPG components and I don't want to be wrong by admitting that it definitely has strong western components.

I think if we just say that PS:T is a western RPG with strong jRPG influences - or maybe even say "PS:T is an RPG of a genre we haven't yet named, which combines western and some eastern RPG influences", maybe we both can agree on that?

See, trying to prove your view, or I mine is futile because we are looking through our "more jRPG - no, more CRPG" goggles that'll shade every argument made either way into a color that suits us.

 

[PrzeSzkoda]

Thing is, the definitions of "Western RPG" and "jRPG" are a wee bit fuzzy. Same as any other definition of anything in the glorious world of cRPG semantics. So we can go back to yiffing in peace.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

And that'd make the number of "tr00" western cRPGs very limited at best.

One of the favorite pastimes of the Codex is to redefine "RPG" to mean "my favorite couple games." Often, a definition of RPG is adopted that rules out every RPG prior to Ultima IV and subsequent to Arcanum. Sometimes it's even narrower.

The argument that PS:T is a "jRPG" is easier to make by pointing to its jRPG elements (the ones previously discussed) than by pointing to Western RPG elements it lacks. That's because it's hard to come up with a set of features shared by all Western RPGs beyond experience/levels, equipment, money, combat, HP, and things like that (which are shared by jRPGs). I guess maybe the one thing it is fair to say that PS:T doesn't let you do that nearly ever Western RPG ever lets you do is name the main character. I can only think of a very small number of other examples of non-jRPGs where that's true (in fact, the Witcher is the only one I can think of off the top of my head).

--EDIT--

The problem with saying that "PS:T is a jRPG with Western elements" is that it feels like what you're trying to do is insinuate that PS:T has the problems of jRPGs (the most obvious I mentioned earlier: mechanically, single-button grinding combat and single-button grinding cutscenes; narratively, shallow stories and shallow characters).

If your point is, "PS:T doesn't let you name the main character, has relatively easy combat, and is more story-driven than most Western RPGs," that strikes me as a coherent and helpful point of discussion. But using "it's a jRPG" as shorthand for that point is at best confusing, at worst misleading.

I think a fair litmus test of RPG definitions is what they do with the Ultima games, which are indisputably RPGs (at least until U8) and indisputably Western. It seems like the same argument that makes PS:T a jRPG could be applied to Ultima VII. It has a pre-fixed character, and pre-defined NPCs. It had a much greater emphasis on story than other games of the time. It had easy, spammy combat. But it's just unproductive to say that Ultima VII was a hybrid Western RPG / jRPG.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

One of the favorite pastimes of the Codex is to redefine "RPG" to mean "my favorite couple games."

when what it really means is "role playing game", amirite?

 

[Gerrard]

I'd like to see another jRPG where you can customize not (only) your character's stats or appearance, but personality.
I'm pretty sure even the idea of that concept would make their heads explode.

 

[KKKthulhu.]

Well would you look at that! Golly gee, I didn't even mention the IE games. I posted that sarcastic comment because PS replied with his stupid IE response, which was not even related to what I had posted.

Because, son, it wasn't a reply to your bullcrap about PS:T being a jRPG, but a general thought about PS:T's linearity, which's been cited as a reason for calling PS:T a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee" in earlier posts, whilst I bet almost no-one would call, say, Baldur's Gate 2 a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee". Not everything written in this thread is a reply to whatever you have decided to write, son, so if something is apparently unrelated to whatever you've written, it most probably IS unrelated to whatever you've written. Ya kno', common sense 101.

Wow, two "sons". Usually a single son or kid is enough to prove that you've run out of steam and know you're completely wrong - it's the traditional message board defeated fallback.. But two childish words? How can I take you seriously when you don't even take yourself seriously? You were replying to my post, you put that in while you were replying to my post, ergo you were directing it at me. If you weren't, then there's no reason to get butthurt. Just say you weren't.

 

[bhlaab]

has anyone said a funny joke like what can change the nature of a jrpg yet because if not im going to

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

[funnyjoke]what can change the nature of a jrpg[/funnyjoke]

 

[bhlaab]

[funnyjoke]what can change the nature of a jrpg[/funnyjoke]

FUCK

 

[Qwinn]

Everything you do in PS:T is somehow related to the main character.

Really?

Exactly how is:

Dealing with Moridor's Box
Working for Craddock
Getting revenge for Sev'Tai
Getting Ingress home
Freeing Trist from slavery
Getting evidence against Byron Pikit
Getting Corvus and Karina together
Releasing Dimtree
Taking sides in the Alley of Dangerous Angles
Helping the Crier of Es-Annon
Freeing Reekwind of his curse
Getting Porphyron his necklace back
Getting Nestor his fork back
Putting Nodd in contact with his sister
Dealing with Angyar's Dead Contract
Dealing with the pickpockets around the Hive
Spying on the githyanki re: Vristigor
Getting a gem for the mage in Ragpicker's square
Dealing with Vlask and his trapped building
The Godsmen's weapon
Helping Sybil through the Tenement of Thugs
Converting Sere to the Anarchists
Reuniting Mertwyn with his head
Delivering Baen The Sender's message
The Dead Nations
Many As One

...related to the main character?

Qwinn

 

[PrzeSzkoda]

Well would you look at that! Golly gee, I didn't even mention the IE games. I posted that sarcastic comment because PS replied with his stupid IE response, which was not even related to what I had posted.

Because, son, it wasn't a reply to your bullcrap about PS:T being a jRPG, but a general thought about PS:T's linearity, which's been cited as a reason for calling PS:T a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee" in earlier posts, whilst I bet almost no-one would call, say, Baldur's Gate 2 a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee". Not everything written in this thread is a reply to whatever you have decided to write, son, so if something is apparently unrelated to whatever you've written, it most probably IS unrelated to whatever you've written. Ya kno', common sense 101.

Wow, two "sons". Usually a single son or kid is enough to prove that you've run out of steam and know you're completely wrong - it's the traditional message board defeated fallback.. But two childish words? How can I take you seriously when you don't even take yourself seriously? You were replying to my post, you put that in while you were replying to my post, ergo you were directing it at me. If you weren't, then there's no reason to get butthurt. Just say you weren't.

I did say it, son.

 

[KKKthulhu.]

Well would you look at that! Golly gee, I didn't even mention the IE games. I posted that sarcastic comment because PS replied with his stupid IE response, which was not even related to what I had posted.

Because, son, it wasn't a reply to your bullcrap about PS:T being a jRPG, but a general thought about PS:T's linearity, which's been cited as a reason for calling PS:T a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee" in earlier posts, whilst I bet almost no-one would call, say, Baldur's Gate 2 a "westarn jay-ar-pee-gee". Not everything written in this thread is a reply to whatever you have decided to write, son, so if something is apparently unrelated to whatever you've written, it most probably IS unrelated to whatever you've written. Ya kno', common sense 101.

Wow, two "sons". Usually a single son or kid is enough to prove that you've run out of steam and know you're completely wrong - it's the traditional message board defeated fallback.. But two childish words? How can I take you seriously when you don't even take yourself seriously? You were replying to my post, you put that in while you were replying to my post, ergo you were directing it at me. If you weren't, then there's no reason to get butthurt. Just say you weren't.

I did say it, son.

 

[Waterd103]

Tru dat. I do not think there is any single cRPG in existence that doesn't determine the character in one way or another. It's just that tools think the Nameless One is 100% predetermined and unchangeable because you can't change his harido to spiky blonde at chargen.

TOEE?
What does C&C means?

 

[Redeye]

How the fuck is PST like a JRPG?

I can see it.

A bit wordy, like the expositions in GITS (especially the series).

A handful of distinctive characters.

Amazing, outlandish settings.

More variation than a JRPG, but the PS:T variations could easily be embedded in a JRPG.

Linear.

Yeah, JRPG vibe from PS:T, but in a good way.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

TOEE?
What does C&C means?

hehe, the fuck?

 

[Severian Silk]

What we need is the ToEE source code. Amirite? Then we could port Arcanum to the engine it always deserved (and fix some of ToEE's bugs/annoyances while we're at it).

 

[Jaesun]

What we need is the ToEE source code. Amirite? Then we could port Arcanum to the engine it always deserved (and fix some of ToEE's bugs/annoyances while we're at it).

I think I just came.

 

[MetalCraze]

ToEE's engine is Arcanum's engine, btw.

 

[Black]

OH YES, BECAUSE GETTING SOURCE CODES FOR GAMES WAS ALWAYS EASY BUSINESS.
GO TO HELL.
HELL!

 

[Murk]

Heavily modified up the butthole and out. Van Buren shares more similarity to ToEE than Arcanum ever did.

 

[MetalCraze]

What's wrong with original Arcanum's engine anyway? It works and looks OK even now.

 

[kris]

The only two things it has in common with the Jap games are the heavy focus on story and dialogues, and the pre-defined character.

JRPGs don't have a focus on dialogue compared to western RPGs. Western non-action RPGs have more, Bioware games have several times as much, Fallout 3 even have more. (although I haven't played any JRPG the last years)

JRPGs don't have a focus on dialog? Maybe back in the 80's, but ever since the SNES it's all whine whine whine.

I haven't really played any JRPGs since the 90s, so maybe things have changed. But most bioware games is about 50% dialogue, while the JRPGs I played was about 90%combat.

More freeform games like Oblivion, Arcanum and Fallout of course depend on your playstyle. JRPGs I played was more story based like Bioware stock.