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BG 2, ToB Appreciation Thread

Gay-Lussac

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Just finished it for the second time. Was pretty epic. Played an evil character this time, the game does give you options to be evil most of the time. Of course these often include losing or ignoring quests but hey it's not like you really need the experience. I think Viconia reached lvl 33 in the end (I did go through Watcher's Keep though).

By the way I used ascension this time and shit does it make the end fight frustrantingly hard. It makes Demogorgon (even the improved version) look like a cake walk. I gave up after a while and just cheated to see the ending. Bear in mind I played through the whole thing on hard went through all optional bosses without resorting to cheap tactics (like setting traps where you know they'll appear) and I still got my ass whooped time and time again in the last battle.

Still my favorite game along with VtmB though I doubt I'll be replaying it again.
 

Black

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:lol:
And what's there to appreciate?
One dimensional characters?
Shitty combat?
Lack/illusion of choices and consequences?
Boring fantasy setting?
Lack of anything that made D&D good?
Ph4t l3wt everywhere?
Dungeon crawling every 3 minutes?
Every quest being combat oriented?
 

Jinxed

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Without a force of comparison even BG is epic. That said, people who play too much will consider nearly everything shit in comparison to another game they proclaim as the true summit of awesome.
 

Gay-Lussac

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BG 2, ToB Appreciation Thread

Appreciation

APPRECIATION

If you don't think there's anything good to say about it please stay outside kkthxbye.
 

Scruffy

Ex-janitor
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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
i liked the 1st a lot more
bg2 was too streamlined, no exploration, and seriously, this epicness shit sucks.
 

Lesifoere

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Good fucking god, what exploration? Wandering through 3463636 empty filler areas at the speed of a snail to discover maybe one single NPC and a few packs of gibberlings/spiders?
 

Melcar

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Didn't like ToB that much. SoA had a much better gameplay balance; ToB was just a big ass cheesefest, even for BG standards. My fav. is the original BG since I prefer low level campaigns and liked the exploration aspect.
My latest playthrough on SoA was with a Shapeshifter (the "rebalanced" version). Made the mistake of finishing WK before going to the Underdark and it totally killed the balance of the game.
The last time I played ToB was with a Monk. Tried out the Monk HLA from the Oversight mod. Fun, but still had troubles dealing with the Ascension battles. The last battle is ridiculous; I bet it's easy if you get Balthazar on your side though.
 

GarfunkeL

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Killing the red dragon for the very first time. I felt like a king of the world. This was it! I was on top of my game! My brave wizardess and her valiant companions had conquered that pinnacle of D&D adventuring: The Red Dragon!

It was such an great moment.

And then I returned back to Amn and these random street thugs who were on an equal level to me and one of them backstabbed my wizardess dead. DEAD I TELL YOU. 'was annoying, for sooth.
 

Gay-Lussac

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Melcar said:
Didn't like ToB that much. SoA had a much better gameplay balance; ToB was just a big ass cheesefest, even for BG standards. My fav. is the original BG since I prefer low level campaigns.
My latest playthrough on SoA was with a Shapeshifter (the "rebalanced" version). Made the mistake of finishing WK before going to the Underdark and it totally killed the balance of the game.
The last time I played ToB was with a Monk. Tried out the Monk HLA from the Oversight mod. Fun, but still had troubles dealing with the Ascension battles. The last battle is ridiculous; I bet it's easy if you get Balthazar on your side though.

I actually read that he's less useful than bhodi (you can only get her if you're evil) which I believe since she can attack invisible opponents and every time she hits she drains 5 levels. The fight was still insanely hard, Abazigal, Balthazar and Yaga Shura just won't die and they hurt a LOT. I liked how the game acknowledged that I was evil even if it didn't happen all that often (the solar calling me an asshole and the deity ending about me being a badass evil god were nice anyway).

Also about all the complaints about 1 dimensional characters, yes some of them were but plenty of them were amusing and criative nonetheless and some of them did have some depth, like Keldorn not being a perfect paladin or the ability to change the alignment of Viconia and Sarevok, not to mention Irenicus who was a kickass villain.
 

1eyedking

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Lesifoere said:
Good fucking god, what exploration? Wandering through 3463636 empty filler areas at the speed of a snail to discover maybe one single NPC and a few packs of gibberlings/spiders?
It's not like running into quest expending machine-NPCs every 5 meters is any better.
 

Raapys

Arcane
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Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
Black said:
:lol:
And what's there to appreciate?
One dimensional characters?
Shitty combat?
Lack/illusion of choices and consequences?
Boring fantasy setting?
Lack of anything that made D&D good?
Ph4t l3wt everywhere?
Dungeon crawling every 3 minutes?
Every quest being combat oriented?

How about plain old fun?

I actually agree with most of your points( though if you set your standards that high, you can say the same for pretty much all RPGs or games in general), yet the game is still one of the best ones I've ever played. Doesn't hurt that the game does the mage/sorcerer class better than any other game either.
 

Lurkar

Scholar
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
791
BG1 was good for when it came out, but it hasn't really aged that well. It can be oh so frustratingly hard with the whole HAH HAH ONE HIT AND YOU DIED GAME OVER, but it also encouraged you do something other then just charge at the enemy and attack mindlessly, which is what a lot of RPGs have become today. Plus, for a lot of people, it was their first big introduction to D&D. There are quite a few places in the game where both charisma and dialogue DO play a part, and while it wasn't done as well as it was in Planescape: Torment or Fallout, keep in mind that BG1 used an entirely different system from Fallout that didn't have social skills, and that it came out a year before PS:T did. Overall, it does have a charm to it, but it's flaws make it difficult to play nowadays - much like the AD&D system it uses. Oh, and pixel hunting was retarded.

Sword Coast was an eh expansion, and while I was kinda eh about the werewolf island and the wizard ice place, the tower was a pretty fun dungeon crawl. There really isn't that much else to say about it - it just didn't add a whole lot.

BG2 took out some of the good parts of BG1, but gave good parts in return. It's easy now to look at it and laugh and laugh at some of the hilariously shit dialogue, but at the time it stood rather well on it's own. Funny enough, BG2 is probably Bioware's strongest game. Unfortunately, the increase in levels changed tactics a bit; many fights just became mash ups unless an enemy mage was involved, at which point it became a mashup for everyone but YOUR mage, who was playing rock paper scissors with the enemy. Dissapointingly, charisma meant a lot less then it did in Baldur's Gate 1, and dialogue too had a lot of points where it didn't matter as much (unless you were dealing with your allies). One thing I feel the need to point out is that, while the romances in BG2 are mocked pretty heavily, they were a lot better done then most RPG ones since; while it wasn't exactly difficult to get most of the girls, you still had to choose the right option and, at times, it wasn't as stupifyingly obvious which one that was. The game assumed you wanted to make the relationship happen over time, whereas pretty much every game since just dumps the girl on your lap, ready to be dry humped - and, possibly most importantly, you could easily tell the girl "yeah, let's not fuck each other" long before that moment actually arrives - a stark difference from modern games, where you have to all but punch the bitch in the face to get her to leave you.

ToB was mediocrity mixed with what was actually a damn good old school dungeon crawl. The campaign itself was mostly eh, it was linear to a huge fault, the monty haul aspect was horrifyingly obvious, and there was no real further characterization of the NPCs, except for tsundere drow bitch who could become neutral. It was just sort of an addon to the end of BG2. But again, Watcher's Keep was a well done old school dungeon crawl, and it put the series to a close in a reasonably satisfactory manner, letting us see the lives and what happens after for ourselves and for the NPCs.

In the end, while it's certainly not the BEST GAMES EVAR, it's a good series, and it is one of the few things I can call epic with a straight faced. You start as the naive young orphan boy and end as a god. While some parts have NOT aged well at all, I think it's still a game you can typically pick up, play, and enjoy. Special notice has to go to the games' length - compared with Mass Effect, the latest Bioware game, both Baldur's Gates are (and seperated, not put together) much, much bigger. While you could easily make the argument that both games rely too much on side quests that have nothing to do with the main plot - and the main plot in both games can be rather short - the exploration and those side quests were given time and development work, and the Infinity Engine meant that - at least after BG1 - each place you went could look rather damn different from the last. Even in Sword Coast they were experimenting with putting the player in different locals, such as the ice caverns. Compare this again with the neverending warehouses of Mass Effect, and the fifteen planets you can actually explore which all look the same. The series also took Forgotten Realms, the flaws and pros of which I oh god will not be getting into, and presented it to the player in a REALLY well done way, especially Baldur's Gate 2 - Amn is possible one of most well done cities in an RPG, making it seem like an actual huge and populated city, and Baldur's Gate (the city) is no slouch either.[/i]
 

filogreek

Scholar
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Messages
114
I'm playing through BG2 (and soon TOB) again right now, with lots of mods of course, and with a Geomantic Sorcerer kit I downloaded. I just find it allot more fun than most newer RPGs, let alone new games in general. I have bought games in the past few months like Empire Total War, Dawn of War 2, the new Call of Duty (WW2 with jap killing one) etc and yet I still go back to BG2/TOB.
The whole becoming-a-god campaign and having to fight off some powerful rivals is just very epic and fun for me (regardless of what complaints can be said about the details in the writing or character development etc). I recently finished IWD2 again and it really becomes apparent how poorly the end-stages of that story had been handled IMO. Isair and Madae did not seem that much of a threat really, and their 'evil' lair in the Severed Hand was much too tame (letting you pretty much just walk around freely for example).
 

Lurkar

Scholar
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
791
Oh, and uh, NERDS COCKS BIOWHORE WHY DO YOU LIE ME>EVERYTHING DECLINE OF THE CODEX.
 

Black

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May 8, 2007
Messages
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Marcelo21 said:
BG 2, ToB Appreciation Thread

Appreciation

APPRECIATION

If you don't think there's anything good to say about it please stay outside kkthxbye.

RPG CODEX
though if you set your standards that high, you can say the same for pretty much all RPGs or games in general
Overrated series like bg vs all RPG OR games?
Yeah, no.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
1eyedking said:
Lesifoere said:
Good fucking god, what exploration? Wandering through 3463636 empty filler areas at the speed of a snail to discover maybe one single NPC and a few packs of gibberlings/spiders?
It's not like running into quest expending machine-NPCs every 5 meters is any better.

Yeah, but I'll take meaningful content over BG1's filler any day.
 

pipka

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Behold!

saerileG.gif


THE HORROR!
 

Wulfstand

Prophet
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Jul 13, 2009
Messages
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Just finished my latest SoA-ToB playthrough yesterday.I loved SoA,whereas ToB i felt kinda meh.SoA is by far my favorite BG;it simply had everything i desired from a crpg in a d&d setting:great party members,breath-taking views(Watcher's Keep,the Sahuagin City,etc),and one of the most awesomely-rendered city ever:Athkatla.Seriously,who'd knew how much shit that city had under it/in it's catacombs(The Unseeing Eye,Kangaxx,the Slave Lords,etc),but really,all the rest of Amn felt the same:Trademeet looked awesome,Ust Natha the same,and so on).

In both SoA-ToB i went with this party:
Me,human stalker,chaotic good,Viconia(the "romantic interest" of the protagonist),Minsc,Korgan,Haer'Dalis and Jan Jansen.Even tho the party wasnt as strong as it could be,let me tell you,it sure felt alive!I remember when Jan tried grabbing Boo using some crackers,pissing the hell out of Minsc,or when Viconia tried making fun of Jan,culminating with Jan irritating her too,she asking me why did we ever have him in the party,at which I responded in Jan's style("Well,it all started back when..."),irritating the f*ck out of her.And the encounters!Firkraag is by far the best dragon encounter I've ever had in a game(D&D or not),and I almost felt bad for killing Irenicus,dunno,it was something about his charismatic voice I guess...

And then came Throne of Bhaal...Watchers Keep was an awesome ideea,but all in all it all felt waaaay too short (finished ToB in a little more than a DAY).The producers did add some really memorable moments in the game(the return of Saemon,that petrified party in Abazigal's Lair,a really memorable part,and the Spectator Beholder from the Sahuagin City,man was he funny),but really,it almost felt like I was playing some IWD expansion.Waay too much h&s,thiefs are basically useless lockpicking and hiding wise,only their find&disarm traps were of any use)Also,the fat loot was really waaay too much,I mean Korgan was basically a killing machine,using Axe of the Unyealding and Frostreaver,and having 22 str.The abilities were a really nice addition to the game,especially the summons(the fallen Daeva looked awesome),but it was kinda dull,as in-melee fighters(which were mostly all except Jan) used only Greater Whirlwinds except Viconia,who mostly summoned shit).It had pretty nice encounters(Sendai gave a pretty nice fight) but the party interaction was pretty non-existant(except for Viconia,my PC's lover).All in all it was a nice expantion,maybe a little too much carnage,but good in general.Oh and i chose not to become a god,but to continue my life as a simple mortal,with mostly Viconia at my side(Jan returning to his Monkey-kidnapping and turnip-selling buisness,Haer'Dalies becoming some sort of exploring Don Juan,Korgan ruling some dwarven clan,who later besieged some drow city,dyeing,and Minsc becoming a legend,like the rest of the party,i presume).

So yea,you could say I'm still pretty hiped and cought up in all the BG franchise,but this playthrough was my last,in which I did pretty much all i wanted(i'm referring to SoA,ToB being very linear),and I sure did have a blast!
 

Lonewolf

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May 17, 2009
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Don't know about anyone else but I am just interested to know what actual RPG Black likes so I can go play a brilliant RPG
 

Black

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Why is that people need walls of text when they try to explain why bg is "good"?

Don't know about anyone else but I am just interested to know what actual RPG Black likes so I can go play a brilliant RPG
Try Fallout and Arcanum first.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
BG2 was awesome back when I played it. Definitely the best game Bioware ever made. Also the most creative, well-designed and beautiful game they ever made. And I love the infinity engine.
 

Gay-Lussac

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Black said:
Marcelo21 said:
BG 2, ToB Appreciation Thread

Appreciation

APPRECIATION

If you don't think there's anything good to say about it please stay outside kkthxbye.

RPG CODEX

Yes but I know there are people here who like the game (as some have already posted here). And we're not using walls of text to defend the game we're saying what we like about. Now go derail other threads.
 

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