Could any of you morons...

[chicago_bankroll]

Ah, the Joining scene... I thought it was fine; it certainly fit right into a Bioware game. A little anticlimactic, certainly, and, also, what the hell was with that giant goblet? That thing looked unspeakably retarded. But, I never really questioned Duncan's choice to kill the knight because this is the kind of game where dark, gritty and mature things happen on a regular basis.

If the writer's intent is to depict the ruthlessness, the unformal ways of the Gray Warden then he missed his goal by showing them caring, saying "sorry" instead of "you had your chance, trash". You don't make the Gray Warden seems compassionate when their ritual is about letting the weak die, and killing the coward without a second thought. It just seems schizophrenic, or dumb.

I agree the scene was totally bipolar in regards to Duncan/Grey Warden character development. He's shown to be such a quiet, nice guy prior to the killing, that the whole sudden ruthlessness thing comes way out of left field. I think if we'd had a little more concrete development on Duncan's character, some signs of the ruthlessness that obviously lies beneath the surface...that scene might have gone better for me.

If they had done this in the game, it would actually make sense why you're limited to a small party.

SPOILER. I'm 99.87% sure that your small party is because the rest of the Grey Wardens are dead and you have been declared a traitor who helped kill the king. So, the "major institution" of the Grey Wardens now consists of you and that other guy whose name I forgot that you pick up at the beginning.

 

[Castanova]

Ah, OK. I'm not playing the game yet. It sounded like another one of those "Hey, can you save the world for us while we chill at the tavern?" type deals.

 

[Lesifoere]

I don't know about killing Jory (which is admittedly pretty WTF), but Alistair's "Join me, brothers and sisters..." speech was definitely fucking terrible. The voice-acting, or rather the lack of acting, didn't help.

For all of David Gaider and BioWare's obsession with making interactive movies, you'd think they would learn a thing or two from films.

If this were a competent movie, the main character would go to the ritual or some other kind of trial and fail to meet the requirements due to his own principles being at odds with the Grey Wardens. When the Grey Warden dude moves to kill the main character, he just barely escapes with his life in an exciting action scene. Then, putting together a small band of misfits, the main character goes about saving the world unilaterally and, at key moments, in direct competition with the Grey Wardens.

That actually would have been interesting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

The guy already told everyone about his fears and his wife/family. Why restate it again?

Because it's unfair to demand from him to act responsibly at that moment. People say all kinds of crap when they're scared to death. Should it be punishable by death?

Duncan has already shown himself as a guy who is committed to the cause and who does what he thinks is right. As a guy who already passed the ritual and dedicated his life to the cause, he would have zero patience for guys who don't have the same commitment. I don't see him as a guy who would beg someone to reconsider and waste time just so he can kill him with a clean conscience.

...

Does he have a cool fatherly side? Should he have it?

I don't know. He seemed like a very considerate and open-minded man in the city elf origin. The cunning bastard could've been faking it, of course. Gotta play more to tell for sure.

And this is wrong because? Most people I've seen are massive jerks and people with cool fatherly sides are very, very rare (and are a massive cliche in fantasy games).

So are disciplined veterans who fight for a cause and are ready to do anything for it. I prefer the fatherly cliche because at least it isn't as one-dimensional and actually feels like a human being.

I understand. The cool facade must be maintained at all times.

No idea what you're talking about.

 

[Chateaubryan]

So you're disappointed because the story isn't what you wanted it to be? You aren't a beloved hero and you didn't join the respected elite?

I was speaking of the quality of the narration. There are rules that makes a story consistent. If you choose to ignore them to make something "cool" like an "uber-elite" that is ruthless AND empathetic (wich I was referring to by "Jedi with blood"), you'll more than likely end up with a fanfic level story, and a ridiculous cutscene.

If you say so. Of course, there is a middle ground, but who needs it, right? Maybe the Wardens are neither good nor evil. Neither ruthless nor compassionate.

If there is a middle ground, it's more about restriction, or trying to manage some balance. Not about killing someone without reasoning, only to mourn him five seconds after like his death : that's just plain schizophrenic. If you try to depict the gray wardens as people with an ambiguous morality, you do it in a more nuanced fashion than this stupid polarized scene.

It's just as the Specters in Ass Effect : Bioware's effort of making the player feel almighty is so blatant that it became ridiculous.

They are a small group that no longer commands the respect it once had and they are reduced to begging for recruits and getting them where they can. They can't force someone to be them, so if one refuses to drink the blood, there really isn't any fucking choice there but to kill them quickly before they give other recruits (you) ideas.

Yeah. Like there's no way of testing a candidate's resolve before making him officialy join the group.

For people who are badly in need of new recruits, they are a little too eager to kill a potential candidate, when a little talk/forcing may have done it. Another element pointing to retardation.

How is the scene "like Jedi but with blood"? Jedi don't kill the recruits and don't force them to join them.

My point, precisely.

 

[Tails]

This DA:O drama gets better and better with every new post

 

[Trash]

They probably hate it because it kills off the two most likeable and realistic npc's you'll meet in the game.

 

[Grunker]

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

Fuck you. I don't care that Duncan was an idiot, I care that I don't get to tell him he's an idiot.

You're more than welcome to ignore my arguments, but don't sum them up if you can't get them right.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The only problem I had with it was when Duncan slew that apprentice guy who tried to back out, since I didn't really understand why he had to do that other than for the sake of making the scene dramatic and serious.

SPOILER

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Their group ideals doesn't allow for people in doubt. And being a secret meeting, they can't let anyone walk out of there without joining.

Fuck you. I don't care that Duncan was an idiot, I care that I don't get to tell him he's an idiot

Also, objecting would result in him killing you, I'd bet. When a leader figure kills one of the grunts for a mistake, the other grunts do not object, unless they have a death wish. You disagree with the harmless merchant overchargin you. You don't disagree with someone perfectly willing to kill you if you do not meet the criteria (unless you're strong enough to take him out)

Given the circunstances, what do you think would happen if the PC threw a fit? The other guy just got killed for this.

 

[Grunker]

The only problem I had with it was when Duncan slew that apprentice guy who tried to back out, since I didn't really understand why he had to do that other than for the sake of making the scene dramatic and serious.

SPOILER

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Their group ideals doesn't allow for people in doubt. And being a secret meeting, they can't let anyone walk out of there without joining.

Fuck you. I don't care that Duncan was an idiot, I care that I don't get to tell him he's an idiot

Also, objecting would result in him killing you, I'd bet. When a leader figure kills one of the grunts for a mistake, the other grunts do not object, unless they have a death wish.

Then let him say something like "I don't have to do the same to you, do I?"

And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't kill me for disagreeing with him afterwards. It's easy enough to find excuses, but it's pretty simple - the game builds up Duncan as though he's a pretty cool guy, albeit very serious. If they pull this shit, they better characterise him better, or it's fucking inconsistent.

 

[Trash]

He also fucking drafts you in the noble origin after promising your family he wouldn't. Sure, he has an excuse but he still does it. Duncan isn't nice.

 

[obediah]

What I didn't get is why Duncan didn't even try to persuade the guy before killing him.

If you recall, the guy says that he changed his mind, Duncan says it's too late now, bro, the guy draws out his sword. Later when I asked Duncan if killing the guy was necessary, he says that once the guy reached for his weapon, it was too late, which kinda makes sense.

It doesn't make sense. Was the point of no return when he started the joining or when he drew his sword? If the former, when asked if killing the guy was necessary Duncan should have responded "Yes, Dude knew he couldn't back out once it started (then optional justification beyond following procedure)". If the latter, then Duncan shouldn't have told the shaken dude he had no way out when in fact he did.

I get the impression that Duncan is a tortured soul, that has established his priorities and places duty to the ___ANCIENT_FORGOTTEN/PERSECUTED_AND_NEARLY_BROKEN_DEFENDERS____ above all else, but carries a great private burden of all the acts he's committed to uphold those duties. But that didn't come through in the writing.

The entire act was just so bland and generic. Between bioware games, lord of the rings, and D&D I didn't leave my comfort zone once - and isn't that the point of fantasy? It certainly didn't help that I was a mage - so far it seems that every day in the world of dragon age involves a secret ritual that will probably kill you, but you have to do it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Then let him say something like "I don't have to do the same to you, do I?"

That doesn't sound consistent. Why would he kill the other guy for fucking up, but let you off with a warning?

It would also just be a minor followup to the

"I can't believe you killed him!"

"Oh well, he had it coming"

The PC already has the option to express his surprise. You want the option to keep asking him about it, but I think it would be too much given the circumstances. Youd be begging for him to do something to you, imo

And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't kill me for disagreeing with him afterwards

Dunno, he just killed a dude before you. Since the PC is not the chosen one or anything, I don't see what's keeping Duncan from offing him too. Also, disagreeing != calling him an idiot, offending a guy that just killed someone is just as horrible an idea as telling Zevran, the cold blooded assassin, to "fuck off, faggot!", like someone suggested. Do you guys have no sense of danger?

I get this. But he isn't characterized as such consistently. At least in my playthrough (City Elf Female), he's characterized as the nicest guy on earth, until he kills that guy out of the blue.

Maybe you missed something that develops him? Like, talking with him at some point? some people said you can miss quests, etc

Also, you're playing that character only to see the bride rape, aren't you

 

[Grunker]

He also fucking drafts you in the noble origin after promising your family he wouldn't. Sure, he has an excuse but he still does it. Duncan isn't nice.

I get this. But he isn't characterized as such consistently. At least in my playthrough (City Elf Female), he's characterized as the nicest guy on earth, until he kills that guy out of the blue.

For me, that cutscene has been very symptomatic of the game so far. I'm always stuck running between "THIS GAME IS SO COOL!" and "THIS GAME SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!"-mode.

But it's not a bad game. Not by a longshot. It beats everything spewed out by Bioware and Obisidan since Baldur's Gate with ease.

 

[Gragt]

You know, reading this kinda makes me want to get DA so I can see what the fuss is all about. But that means ignoring Gothic 2 for a few more months and I really want to see what the fuss is about that game.

I'm torn between two sides ...

 

[Ch1ef]

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

HUR-AH-HUR-AH-HUR-AH

Can you hear this breath Dweller?
it's me, Ch1ef, standing behind you with open fly.
...

 

[baronjohn]

My problem with the scene was, I thought, why doesn't the guy just stand up after the encounter is over?

 

[Mangoose]

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

The scene's just too ambiguous for its purpose. I can't really tell at all if Duncan's ruthless or nice or what. He does one thing but acts and behaves in the opposite direction. Why kill the guy so quickly and suddenly instead of making an attempt at a persuasive conversation? How does he so directly kill Jory while at the same time look and act so sorrowful? Why doesn't Alistair act surprised? Why can't I ask Duncan to get a more clarified answer as to why he did that, and ask why he didn't consider alternatives? If the reason was that Jory pulled out his weapon, why didn't Duncan disarm him, knock him unconscious, or simply hit him a few times until he yielded?

I basically agree with what Trash said. I can kinda see what Bioware is trying to show Duncan as in the scene, but it's just not written well enough to allow it to come across.

Now this all would be okay if the intent is to have a later subplot where you discover Duncan's background and beliefs. But my intuition (and lack of any foreshadowing in-game, 20 hours in) tells me that you're not supposed to look at Duncan with much mystery.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

How does he so directly kill Jory while at the same time look and act so sorrowful?

Well, he's not ENJOYING it.

 

[Mangoose]

How does he so directly kill Jory while at the same time look and act so sorrowful?

Well, he's not ENJOYING it.

I mean, no hesitation at all? Has he done this a lot before? Has he killed lots of "innocents" so easily?

Again the scene raises a lot of questions and doesn't really answer them, and I have a feeling the game won't really answer them later because there is very little focus ingame on Duncan's "mysterious" personality.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

my problem is that i was hoping to fuck Jory's knife wound after drinking from the chalice. i heard there was secks in this game.

 

[Joe Krow]

Someone needs to and make a thread about the combat or character progression. You hens make Dragon Age sound like a bad soap opera.

 

[Grunker]

My problem with the scene was, I thought, why doesn't the guy just stand up after the encounter is over?

 

[Armacalypse]

Jory proved that he wasn't loyal enough, that he couldn't be trusted, and was killed because of that. Duncan isn't characterized properly enough to tell if he's a fanatic, psychopath, or if he was just forced to do it because of some gray warden rule. That doesn't mean that his actions didn't make sense though.