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Comments on Profile Post by Thac0

  1. Grauken
    Grauken
    It's as arbitrary and personal as any of these lists are. The moment you accept that, you realize how pointless making tiered lists are because they are only meaningful to yourself
    Sep 12, 2020
    Lithium Flower and Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  2. Thac0
    Thac0
    Tierlists are fun tho.
    That said I don't subscribe fully to the notion that there is no objectivety in all things art. You can never be perfectly objective in your judgements, but there is a certain bar, a fictional objective observer against which art can be compared.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  3. Grauken
    Grauken
    I do, I've never seen convincing arguments for objective measures of art
    Sep 12, 2020
    Lithium Flower and Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  4. Thac0
    Thac0
    For me the easiest example comes when you compare works from the same author. Generally an authors first book is weaker than his other books. There are rare cases where an author nests years over his first book to make it an absolute banger, but those are rare enough to be mostly discarded. Also books released with heavy executive meddling or under time pressure tend to be worse.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  5. Thac0
    Thac0
    Those inferior pieces have their strengths at the same places as the stronger pieces, since they are from the same author, and forged with the same approach. However they are just worse due to less skilled execution. Now that a quality difference exists in any shape or form between two works that can be abstracted onto other works.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  6. Grauken
    Grauken
    Haha, some of my favorite books are first books by authors when they were unrestrained by experience and still wrote without holding back
    Sep 12, 2020
    Thac0 and Sukhāvatī brofisted this.
  7. Grauken
    Grauken
    What it comes down to it is we value different things so we obviously judge books and authors differently. Some people value skill in writing, some in story construction, some in themes or how characters are handled and a thousand others things
    Sep 12, 2020
  8. Thac0
    Thac0
    In that case lets take the argument of creation. Imagine you would start to write a book this day, and you write one page per day. As you keep on writing over months of work, you will absorb more knowledge about the process of writing and hone your prose in general. Unless you already have considerable skill in the process of writing your 100th page will be stronger than your first page.
    Sep 12, 2020
  9. Grauken
    Grauken
    Books or stories aren't pieces to be forged where every piece is basically the same and you get better at doing it
    Sep 12, 2020
  10. Grauken
    Grauken
    You also forget of how much written fiction is a participatory experience and 50% of the work is done by the reader, even people reading the same book will have entirely different experiences based on what they bring into it
    Sep 12, 2020
    Thac0 brofisted this.
  11. Thac0
    Thac0
    Hmmh I guess that is the fundamental disagreement we have.
    I write myself, and I absolutely see it as a skill. When writing, especially when beginning to write, you can visibly see every element of your writing improve from page to page. It is a craft you can hone.
    Sep 12, 2020
  12. Grauken
    Grauken
    Nothing bad about a healthy disagreement. If you ever get published, let me know so that I can put you into a tier :)
    Sep 12, 2020
    Thac0 brofisted this.
  13. Thac0
    Thac0
    If ever :despair:

    I am highly effective at most cerebral stuff I do, but I have problems with tenacity and morale.

    BTW I thought the participatory experience thing was by far Graukens strongest argument. When you read a good book it doesn't feel like your eyes are glazign over words, it feels like being there. It is 100% imagination driven. That said that doesn't fully disqualify quality differences for me.
    Sep 12, 2020
  14. Grauken
    Grauken
    Latro should have learned by now that on my wall he writes at my mercy
    Sep 12, 2020
  15. Latro
    Latro
    that simply means you enjoy the work, or find it easy to comprehend. when you read something like shakespeare long enough, any difficulties with comprehension will slowly fade as you acclimatize to his diction and pacing and start to grasp his raw prosodic talent. when you go back to other works, it may be (or will be) that all of a sudden you find your old favorites aren't quite as well-written as the bard.
    Sep 12, 2020
  16. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    I love you Thac0 but Grauken is based and redpilled here.

    When you talk about writers "improving" their works, what particular things do you see as being improved? In other words, when you read something, what is it that you *value* about it?

    Any answer you give will be an arbitrary value judgement, a reflection of heuristic that is personal to you or one that you share with others.
    Sep 12, 2020
  17. Latro
    Latro
    "Any answer you give will be an arbitrary value judgement, a reflection of heuristic that is personal to you or one that you share with others."

    a lie and a bane to all art. there are objective standards. the genius strives to meet and overcome it.
    Sep 12, 2020
  18. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    "Book Y is 6000 letters long and Book X is 9000 letters long; Book X is longer than Book Y" is I think an objective assessment of a work, but not of its value (is it good, bad, "worth it", etc)

    "Longer books are better than shorter books therefore Book X is better than Book Y" is a value judgement that can only come from your subjective standpoint.
    Sep 12, 2020
  19. Latro
    Latro
    book length is an objective standard for literature? shiet, better go tell shakespeare little hamlet or othello is too short.
    Sep 12, 2020
  20. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Latro is right in that THEISTS or moral realists (and I think you have to be former to be the latter and not be inconsistent but there is some disagreement over this idea in philosophy) can believe in objective values without being inconsistent, but I don't give a fuck. I'm assuming Thac0 is, like I, an agnostic-atheist or similar. I can sense that due to our deep psychic connection.
    Sep 12, 2020
  21. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Also congratulations Latro you missed the point in my example so fucking badly you have just revealed to everyone your single digit IQ
    Sep 12, 2020
  22. Latro
    Latro
    " Latro is right in that THEISTS or moral realists"

    i'm not using religion to argue for objective standards in art, nor am I using God as an explanation for objective standards in art. the standards are inherent, and is why shakespeare and homer and others tower above most in our beloved art.
    Sep 12, 2020
  23. Latro
    Latro
    "Also congratulations Latro you missed the point in my example so fucking badly you have just revealed to everyone your single digit IQ"

    well, taco can listen to you and just write what he likes, or he can educate and challenge himself to elevate his writing. no wood off my pencil :D
    Sep 12, 2020
  24. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    I'm super curious as to how you can argue objective values of anything without first arguing for some sort of foundational moral force, but okay. I would love to see you try without appealing to some basic bitch bellyfeels
    Sep 12, 2020
  25. Thac0
    Thac0
    A highly abstract argument that ultimately breaks because it loses its connection to real life. When compared to its extreme its flaws become apparent. While I hate arguments about technicalities in prose bear with me for this one.
    Sep 12, 2020
  26. Latro
    Latro
    believe what you like. somewhere and in some place, dante and shakespeare are putting on a sly countenance...
    Sep 12, 2020
  27. Thac0
    Thac0
    When you double a description you draw attention to it. More so if you triple it. The burning sun, the glistening sun, the burning glistening sun, the burning glistening hot sun all have different effects.
    Now when you don't know what to double, and draw attention to random elements you create bad prose. The prose of someone that avoids this, either by instinct or knowledge, is just better.
    Sep 12, 2020
  28. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    This is where this conversation always gets infuriating for all involved, onlookers included.

    What do you mean by "worse," "bad," "better?" Remember, you are arguing that these things exist in some objective capacity and are not simply shortcuts to mean "things I dislike/like," so it is up to you to define them.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Grauken brofisted this.
  29. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Can switch to PMs because the character limit can get pretty obnoxious for this type of convo :^)))
    Sep 12, 2020
  30. Latro
    Latro
    "What do you mean by "worse," "bad," "better?"

    Have you tried reading the great works? Technique and style are real, tangible things - this is what great authors have in spades. I suppose this is where "quantifiable" things fail, eh :D
    Sep 12, 2020
  31. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Latro, I will reflect your bulletproof "it just is lol" argument back at you - I am intuitively and obviously and axiomatically correct and you are clearly and evidently and inherently wrong. Go play with Lyric Suite in the corner with the rest of the Gnostics.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Grauken brofisted this.
  32. Latro
    Latro
    ""it just is lol"

    my argument is "technique and style exist, and some are either unique enough to be genius, or far ahead of everyone else to be objectively great works of art". perhaps you have a low level of comprehension? maybe you just don't get it? I appreciate you and feel for you.
    Sep 12, 2020
  33. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Do you understand that *just saying that* is the equivalent of saying "God exists." It's a claim with zero backing. Implicitly, you are saying that the objective value of art is some sort of mystical thing that cannot be quantified and yet nevertheless definitely exists. Again, this is religious thinking that is futile to attempt to either argue or disprove.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Grauken brofisted this.
  34. Latro
    Latro
    "Do you understand that *just saying that* is the equivalent of saying "God exists."

    that's besides the point.

    "It's a claim with zero backing."

    our greatest books are great with zero backing? lol
    Sep 12, 2020
  35. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    Ironically, you are inadvertently demonstrating my point. You can do nothing to demonstrate the existence of these objective values but appeal to your personal heuristic. Great! We are in agreement then, only I don't pretend that the things I like are representations of some greater value/moral forces that exist objectively of me.
    Sep 12, 2020
    Grauken brofisted this.
  36. Latro
    Latro
    you're starting to argue with a scarecrow, methinks
    Sep 12, 2020
  37. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    To tell you the truth, I have long started seeing my attempts to have these conversations as tilting at windmills.
    Sep 12, 2020
  38. Latro
    Latro
    because you're bringing in arguments i'm not even making probably
    Sep 12, 2020
  39. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    I love pain, so sure why not bring Rocinante around for another charge.

    Please explain how I have mischaracterized your position.
    Sep 12, 2020
  40. Latro
    Latro
    something about God and lyric suite, why don't you go PM him?
    Sep 12, 2020
  41. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    I'm too busy fucking your mom :^(
    Sep 12, 2020
  42. Latro
    Latro
    yeah right homo
    Sep 12, 2020
  43. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    you are right about that i've tasted my share of your dad's cockass too :^))))
    Sep 12, 2020
  44. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    ive inhaled the honey of his unwashed anus :^)))))))))))))))))
    Sep 12, 2020
  45. Lithium Flower
    Lithium Flower
    i let him make sweet sweet music with my banjo string :^))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    Sep 12, 2020

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