134,000 in Virtual Property Sales Foolishness

[DarkSign]

Flesh and blood people are paying more and more for virtual stuff.
Check out the craziness here

Hell, the market is propped up on confidence in a virtual system, but it has debt, equity and a real frigging product!

Im sure it will keep getting more and more outrageous.

 

[Balor]

Subconscious message stamped all over the last post:
I want a piece of it!
I wish you good luck. It's gold mine that is only began being excavated. May you emerge with you share of gold nuts

 

[DarkSign]

My balls are brass-plated thank you very much

 

[Balor]

*rofls* Golden ones are better - more stylish .

 

[fnordcircle]

There were economists calculating the virtual economy into the real one years back, always interesting to me. At some point there is a real correlation between a dollar bill and a gold piece, though the exchange rate isn't exactly the greatest.

Still, the idea that the Everquest and WoW economies have an effect on real world economies, no matter how miniscule, is a funny concept to me. It's also quite an indication how far technology has progressed that people are, essentially, paying money to see certain worlds and numbers on their screen.

 

[PennyAnte]

Well, virtual items people are selling required real work to produce, in this game and others. Getting a good item out of a game like diablo takes time.

The way I see it, it's like making a TV show, film or even a video game. It's a real product that gives something real (entertainment), and it takes work and real items to make (production crew, computers and other gear).

The fact that it isn't a substantial product doesn't change anything. Virtual items give real entertainment and pleasure.

 

[Fez]

If music, software, etc. piracy is theft, then virtual and insubstantial products must have as much potential for value as anything else. It's all information on the system, so whats the difference between an mp3 file, a copy of a game download, a weapon in Diablo, or a house on a MMOG server?

With an auction sale it's all about how much someone is willing to pay, not what it is worth, and when it comes to MMOGs, normal rules of sanity do not apply.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, well I got you both beat, my one ball is the size of a softball, and it's stainless baby.

 

[Fez]

That must require some especially skilled tailors to accommodate.

 

[PennyAnte]

I was starting to get the impression he just slung the whole unit over his shoulder.

 

[Fez]

Now that would be something to be proud of.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Kinda like that song:
Do your balls hang low
Do they wobble to and fro
Can you tie them in a knot
Can you tie them in a bow
Can you throw them over your shoulder
Like a continental soldier
Do your balls hang low.

 

[Fez]

SING-ALONG TIME:

Do your balls hang low?
Can you swing them to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do you ever get the feeling
When they hit against the ceiling
That you'll never be a sailor
If your balls hang low?

CHORUS:
Ting-a-ling, God damn,
Find a woman if you can.
If you can't find a woman,
Find a clean old man.
If you're ever in Gibraltar,
Take a flying fuck at Walter.
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Can you throw 'em o'er your shoulder,
Like a Continental soldier?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
When your bollocks hang right down,
Do they drag along the ground?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?


Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they make a lusty clamor,
When you hit them with a hammer?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Can you bounce 'em off the wall,
Like an Indian rubber ball?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do your dingly-dangly gonads,
Roam about like desert nomads?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they ever start to hurt,
Cos they're dragging in the dirt?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they have a hollow sound,
When you drop 'em on the ground?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they have a mellow tingle,
When you hit 'em with a shingle?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they have a salty taste,
When you wrap 'em 'round your waist?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they chime just like a gong,
When you pull upon your dong?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Do they dangle in the dust,
When you're overcome with lust?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

Do your balls hang low?
Do they swing to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Does the long drop of your bollocks,
Interfere with sexual frolics?
Can you do the double shuffle,
When your balls hang low?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

God I love you Fez.

 

[Fez]

Me too.

I'll book a hotel room for a dirty weekend.

FEZ FOR POPE.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The problem with the sale of virtual property is the fact that the virtual property eventually becomes worthless.

When you do a job in real life, you don't produce something out of nothing. Resources are limited and value is determined through supply and demand, so prices can usually be attributed to the goods in question. In games or any other virtual environments, virtual resources are unlimited, so any value applied to those virtual resources possess diminishes in value as more of them become abundant and they become harder to sell. While a powerful sword might be worth 2,000 dollars in real life when first available, it stops costing that much when there's 50 other swords out there for sale. Some sellers lower their prices far too much and that in turn devalues the product for everybody else, and unlike objects that cost that much in real life, they aren't actually worth anything.

How is your 2,000 dollar sword going to serve you once the developer releases an expansion with equipment 5 times more powerful, or decides to tweak with the drop rate of the sword?

It's all very stupid.

 

[PennyAnte]

The problem with the sale of virtual property is the fact that the virtual property eventually becomes worthless. ... How is your 2,000 dollar sword going to serve you once the developer releases an expansion with equipment 5 times more powerful, or decides to tweak with the drop rate of the sword?

That goes for many products though. Nearly all cars don't keep their worth, they plummet in value every year. Milk isn't worth much after it's rancid a week after you get it. Rotten meat anyone? But before that people were paying $3/gallon or $3/pound. Not much stays valuable or grows in value in perpetuity (precious metals, etc.)

And a drop rate tweak can work both ways - increasing or decreasing supply. So it depends.

While a powerful sword might be worth 2,000 dollars in real life when first available, it stops costing that much when there's 50 other swords out there for sale. Some sellers lower their prices far too much and that in turn devalues the product for everybody else, and unlike objects that cost that much in real life, they aren't actually worth anything.

I would just say here too, that this applies to most products. The pressures of supply and demand, and price competition, are what drives every market everywhere.

And virtual items are actually worth something. They're like a film or TV show. They provide entertainment and eventually go out of fashion. They may not have as much potential as a film to become classic and be beloved through generations, but films like "It's a Wonderful Life" are rare.

 

[DarkSign]

So the key is to buy the virtual item when its "in fashion" and sell it before the whole system collapses.

 

[PennyAnte]

I'd say so, and again, it's just like anything else in the market. If I ran a game company, I wouldn't develop for the PS1 after the PS2. I'd create for the fashionable system, then cash in before its market "collapsed" (relatively speaking).

I'm not a fan of MMOs or reselling virtual property. But I am a fan of money.

 

[Fez]

I don't care about this too much unless I am gaining or losing money from it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

That goes for many products though. Nearly all cars don't keep their worth, they plummet in value every year. Milk isn't worth much after it's rancid a week after you get it. Rotten meat anyone? But before that people were paying $3/gallon or $3/pound. Not much stays valuable or grows in value in perpetuity (precious metals, etc.)

You're comparing milk to virtual items? Hey, look, when you buy milk you're not likely to spend more than 5 dollars and that carton is sure as hell gonna last a few glasses. When you spend 2,000 dollars on some stupid virtual sword, there's really not much you can do with it besides use it for a couple of months and even then, what kind of retarded investment is that? You're not gonna get laid with your 2,000 dollar sword, and you're sure as hell not gonna impress anybody with it, much less some 14 year old kid with too much time on his hands who could probably get a sword that's 5 times more powerful than your sword just from playing a lot during his free time.

Normal people would spend a lot of money on a good car for a few reasons:
1) Cars are real
2) Increases your chances of getting laid
3) Be the envy of all your pals
4) It's prestigious. You're more likely to impress potential business partners or finalize deals when you're driving a good car instead of taking the subway. People look at your car and say, "Hey, that guy can afford to drive one of those. He must be good at what he does." And no, riced 800 dollar cars don't count.
5) It's comfortable to drive. Real comfort, not virtual comfort.
6) You have something to show yourself for all your hard work. Feel proud of yourself, dude, you've earned it!

Idiots would spend a lot of money on a virtual item for these reasons:
1) They don't have lives and spend all of their time in an MMORPG that only a bunch of other losers play.
2) They like to impress other losers and they THINK they impress casual gamers when they say things like, "I SPENT 500 DOLLARS ON THIS WEAPON!", and some 13 year old kid comes up to them and says he found 2 of them during the weekend.
3) They're idiots.

I would just say here too, that this applies to most products. The pressures of supply and demand, and price competition, are what drives every market everywhere.

Yeah, but it's a different reality that drives the automobile industry. It's driven by cost factors like fuel, technology, manufacture and production limits. Cars like Ferraris are made in a limited number for the very purpose of alotting them with a higher status than regular cars. It's the same way that race cars like Hyundai Tiburons are nowhere as mass produced as your common-as-shit Honda Civic. But what kind of market drives the cost of virtual items? Stupidity, that's what. Now, were someone to buy a Mercedes Benz he'd be able to drive it around every day, but if he bought a sword for 2,000 dollars he'd only be able to use it for as long as he played the game, and once the next MMORPG comes along (e.g. WOW > EQ) it'd become completely worthless. That is not so with a Mercedes you might have bought in 1990, or even a vintage classic. I've never heard of items in games becoming vintage, have you?

And virtual items are actually worth something. They're like a film or TV show. They provide entertainment and eventually go out of fashion.

I might consider buying a virtual item for a few dollars, as long as the game itself was in fashion, and popular with many (50k+) players, but what's the point of buying a virtual item on some server in which only 3,000 or so players are on? For the 200 dollars you spent on items on some shitty server you could just as easily buy yourself a nice expensive jacket or a couple of fashionable shirts to wear on dates, or anywhere. Heck, you could treat myself to a nice dinner with a good bottle of wine, and hell you could even get laid. That's not gonna happen in the game.

They may not have as much potential as a film to become classic and be beloved through generations, but films like "It's a Wonderful Life" are rare.

How can you compare in-game items to It's A Wonderful Life?

Utimately, MMORPGs are a tremendous waste of time. For the money you spend 'investing' on items in an MMORPG to sell, you could just as easily be working at a real job and earning 2 times more than what you earned wasting your whole time in the game. If you buy items without the intention of reselling them, you're an even bigger fool. For the time you spend playing an MMORPG you could spend it reading and educating yourself, playing sports and becoming fitter, spending time with your friends and socializing and expanding your web of influence, playing chess, doing crossword puzzles or strategy games for increasing your logic while having fun at the same time, or heck, even playing CounterStrike and improving your dexterity and hand-eye coordination.

 

[PennyAnte]

You're comparing milk to virtual items?

Yeah, mang. I get nourishment from milk, entertainment from a virtual sword. Why is that so different for you than buying a CD with Diablo on it? Because it's on a CD? Both products are "just zeros and ones." But both require invested time to get/make. That CD of Diablo has no entertainment value for me without l33t virtual swords anyway.

Hey, look, when you buy milk ... that carton is sure as hell gonna last a few glasses.

I've goofed around with the same virtual character and gear in D2 for far longer than a carton of milk has lasted me.

When you spend 2,000 dollars on some stupid virtual sword, there's really not much you can do with it besides use it for a couple of months and even then, what kind of retarded investment is that?

Let's not get stuck on dollar value hyperbole. The apartments in the example cited in the first post went for like $35. Also, many pre-patch uniques in D2 are worth more than they ever used to be, because the game has changed and they don't drop anymore.

You're not gonna get laid with your 2,000 dollar sword, and you're sure as hell not gonna impress anybody with it, much less some 14 year old kid with too much time on his hands who could probably get a sword that's 5 times more powerful than your sword just from playing a lot during his free time.

Note to self ....
Ex's priorities:
1. get laid
2. impress others
3. don't be outdone by 14 year old gaming geeks

My argument is that the individual player will get a lot out of it for reasons other than the ones you listed.

Normal people would spend a lot of money on a good car for a few reasons:
1) Cars are real
2) Increases your chances of getting laid
3) Be the envy of all your pals
4) It's prestigious.

You and these lists, mang!
Software is "real" too. Intellectual property and all that.

People look at your car and say, "Hey, that guy can afford to drive one of those. He must be good at what he does."

Sometimes people just think you overcharge. That's how I react when, say, a realtor or financial advisor rolls up in a BMW.

5) It's comfortable to drive. Real comfort, not virtual comfort.
6) You have something to show yourself for all your hard work. Feel proud of yourself, dude, you've earned it!

I get true enjoyment out of games. I got true enjoyment out of bragging that I finished Halo on Legendary and could show off a list of elite skulls for every level. Low-level enjoyment, but still.

Yeah, but it's a different reality that drives the automobile industry. It's driven by cost factors like fuel, technology, manufacture and production limits.

That's not really relevant. The point is just that production costs (whatever they are for that product), supply and demand influence prices in every market. The specifics aren't important.

But what kind of market drives the cost of virtual items? Stupidity, that's what.

No, the same thing that drives every other recreation market - the desire to have fun and differing tastes about what is fun. I find skiing overly dangerous and unpleasant. But I don't think skiers are stupid.

Now, were someone to buy a Mercedes Benz he'd be able to drive it around every day, but if he bought a sword for 2,000 dollars he'd only be able to use it for as long as he played the game, and once the next MMORPG comes along (e.g. WOW > EQ) it'd become completely worthless. That is not so with a Mercedes you might have bought in 1990, or even a vintage classic.

How old is FO? How about the first Bard's Tale? The first Zelda? Donkey Kong?

I've never heard of items in games becoming vintage, have you?

Well, items are only really valuable individually in games that randomly generate items like D2 and MMOGs, and in which items can be exchanged between players. Those games aren't that old.

For the 200 dollars you spent on items on some shitty server you could just as easily buy yourself ...

That is ALWAYS true. You can always think of an alternative purchase for any given amount of money. Everyone would be rich at retirement if they could just get back the amount of their frivolous purchases and what they spent on "fun."

How can you compare in-game items to It's A Wonderful Life?

What did you do last night? Play FO or read Charles Dickens?

Utimately, MMORPGs are a tremendous waste of time.

I don't personally disagree with you there. But I don't deny their lure to others.

For the money you spend 'investing' on items in an MMORPG to sell, you could just as easily be working at a real job and earning 2 times more than what you earned wasting your whole time in the game.

That may not stay true if this kind of trend keeps up.

If you buy items without the intention of reselling them, you're an even bigger fool.

Maybe a happy fool who is enjoying him or herself. Unlike grumpy Ex ranting at the 'Dex. Or wait ... is this fun?
And free too, dang.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Reality: You don't own the shit you buy from other players. It's still on the server and the company that makes the game still owns it. Now, why would you pay for something you can't possibly own?

There's a big difference between spending 40 dollars on Diablo 2 or watching 5 8-dollar ticket movies and spending 40 dollars on a virtual item.

No, the same thing that drives every other recreation market - the desire to have fun and differing tastes about what is fun. I find skiing overly dangerous and unpleasant. But I don't think skiers are stupid.

Skiing might be somewhat dangerous (not if you know what you're doing) but it's also got its advantages. First of all, you're going out, you're getting some sun, and it's an athletic activity, so you've got to stay in shape to do it, and that's universally beneficial. Sitting at home and playing Everquest with your twinked up 5,000 dollar character isn't beneficial in any way whatsoever. It's unhealthy, and it makes you quite an unpleasant person to be around with due to your inept social skills.

Sometimes people just think you overcharge. That's how I react when, say, a realtor or financial advisor rolls up in a BMW.

Maybe. But you're more likely to give a positive impression to your client or your potential business partner when you drive up in a BMW instead of getting off a cab or worse, a run-down 70s car. Watching someone pull up in a 1970 Fiat isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

How old is FO? How about the first Bard's Tale? The first Zelda? Donkey Kong?

I was talking about in-game items. I thought that was quite clear. It's one thing for someone to pay a few hundred dollars for a very limited first edition release of the original Zelda in mint condition. It's completely another when someone pays a few hundred dollars for his "Trident of Striking" in Everquest 2.

What did you do last night? Play FO or read Charles Dickens?

What's with the non-sequiturs?

I don't personally disagree with you there. But I don't deny their lure to others.

Translation: Those people are idiots.

 

[PennyAnte]

Reality: You don't own the shit you buy from other players. ... There's a big difference between spending 40 dollars on Diablo 2 or watching 5 8-dollar ticket movies and spending 40 dollars on a virtual item.

You don't really own that copy of D2 either, at least not the software itself. Can't even play it without the CD in the drive. 50 bucks (or whatever) just lets you perpetually rent the code, user only.

Skiing ... it's an athletic activity, so you've got to stay in shape to do it, and that's universally beneficial. Sitting at home and playing Everquest with your twinked up 5,000 dollar character isn't beneficial in any way whatsoever.

This from the guy who just said:

even playing CounterStrike and improving your dexterity and hand-eye coordination...

OMFG BBQ TEH FLIP-FLOP!!! :twisted:
But more seriously, games, if they're good art, feed my brain and my need for culture. Also, a good puzzle is its own reward, in a game or elsewhere.

Watching someone pull up in a 1970 Fiat isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

It is if the driver has a short skirt and a looooong jacket. 'Swhat's inside that counts.

I was talking about in-game items. I thought that was quite clear.

Me too mang, games and items separately. Don't remember?

What's with the non-sequiturs?.

It followed mang. Point being, classic games like FO can be compared to classics in other genres. Games have produced their share of icons, and some even have good stories.

Translation: Those people are idiots.

No mang, you've just got the blinders on. They're a market like anyone else having fun. Used to be people who played Pong and Space Invaders were idiots.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You don't really own that copy of D2 either, at least not the software itself. Can't even play it without the CD in the drive. 50 bucks (or whatever) just lets you perpetually rent the code, user only.

Bullshit. I don't have to pay 15 dollars a month to play Diablo 2 and I can install it on any computer.

But more seriously, games, if they're good art, feed my brain and my need for culture. Also, a good puzzle is its own reward, in a game or elsewhere.

Playing an MMORPG makes you culturally aware, now?