Review IWD2 review at GameAxis

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Icewind Dale 2

<a href="http://www.gameaxis.com/articles/view.gax?gid=83&id=53">GameAxis</a> has typed up a <A href="http://www.gameaxis.com/articles/view.gax?gid=83&id=53">review</a> of <a href="http://icewind2.blackisle.com">IWD2</a>. He faulted the pathfinding, a few missing third edition rules, and the simplistic journal. Overall, the <a href="http://www.gameaxis.com/articles/view.gax?gid=83&id=53">review</a> is favorable though, calling it a quality CRPG.
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<blockquote>Although IWD2 did not revolutionized the CRPG genre like what Neverwinter Nights did, it proved that a well polished good old engine can also fork out an immeasurable number of fun. Incorporating right combat balance, consistent pacing, good dialogues, refined gameplay and new rules, IWD2 has established itself as one of the most enjoyable CRPG released this year. Without a doubt, BIS has yet again proved they know what makes a CRPG tick and delivered where it matters.</blockquote>
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Okay, so what <i>exactly</i> did <a href="http://nwn.bioware.com">NWN</a> do that <i>revolutionized</i> the CRPG genre?
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Spotted this over at <a href="http://www.shacknews.com">Shack News</a>.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

It created the ability for amateur RPG scenario writers to realise their stories as fully functional RPG games.

It's an imperfect game and it took a long time for them to make, and they over-hyped it. The player community may not make the most of what they've been given. I undersatnd all that, but I still think it's a good step forward, possibly revolutionary.

 

[Sol Invictus]

There are whole bunch of problems with NWN, but the main problem is namely the fact that the campaign that comes with it is utterly under par for a game that took so long to be developed.

The other problems include the shoddy dialogue (which is of course, a problem pertaining to the bad campaign itself, and not the game's engine), the bad balance between player and monsters (campaign issue again), but I think the issue that stands out the most on the Engine's part is the fact that the 3d-ness of the engine isn't fully realized in Neverwinter Nights. They could have very well implemented such wonderful things as wall scaling, burrowing and all the nifty things that games with 3d engines usually benefit from.

As it is, NWN is just a 2d game with a 3d skin.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It created the ability for amateur RPG scenario writers to realise their stories as fully functional RPG games.

http://www.runesword.com/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,2242/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,991/
http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/blades/winBOE.html

And so on, and so on.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

I'm not familiar with all of the construction sets out there, but here are things that are missing from some or all of the ones of which I am aware:

• Online play. Very significant, since online play allows people who have no friends (me) to meet and play with other players and DMs. Playing with real people is something special that cannot be duplicated.
• User tilesets, meshes and models, making it possible to extend the setting extensively, or even create new settings.
• Complex scripting for dialogue, including embedded checks and logic. This is an enabler for higher role-playing.

Note, as I have admitted, none of this has been done flawlessly but the game is certainly usable as is for the purposes I have listed.

 

[Rosh]

I'm not familiar with all of the construction sets out there, but here are things that are missing from some or all of the ones of which I am aware:

• Online play. Very significant, since online play allows people who have no friends (me) to meet and play with other players and DMs. Playing with real people is something special that cannot be duplicated.
• User tilesets, meshes and models, making it possible to extend the setting extensively, or even create new settings.
• Complex scripting for dialogue, including embedded checks and logic. This is an enabler for higher role-playing.

Note, as I have admitted, none of this has been done flawlessly but the game is certainly usable as is for the purposes I have listed.

So...how long have you been living under a rock? Aside from some particulars like graphics, there have been editors available for years that do the above in leagues beyond NWN's editors.

Double the irony, given that you were stroking off the editors in your prior post. It's almost like that CRPG newbie fanboying on BIS' boards because IWD2 was the best (and nearly the only) CRPG they've played and say it's great.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Aside from some particulars like graphics, there have been editors available for years that do the above in leagues beyond NWN's editors

You told me once you thought the measure of the NWN editors was that the player community will not survive far past its initial release. Do these better editors still have active player communities?

I'd be interested in the names of these editors. If they are better than NWN, I'll definitely buy them to so I can play some of the modules being made with them. None of the ones on Saint_Proverbius' list that I've looked at are better than NWN, for the reasons I gave, so I assume he overlooked some or you're talking about one of the ones I've not looked at.

Regarding graphics, they ARE just one aspect of the game. I'm not too picky about 2D/3D and I don't need flashy effects. However, I would at least like the game to be in the same era (ie. third person perspective).

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'm not familiar with all of the construction sets out there, but here are things that are missing from some or all of the ones of which I am aware:

• Online play. Very significant, since online play allows people who have no friends (me) to meet and play with other players and DMs. Playing with real people is something special that cannot be duplicated.
• User tilesets, meshes and models, making it possible to extend the setting extensively, or even create new settings.
• Complex scripting for dialogue, including embedded checks and logic. This is an enabler for higher role-playing.

Note, as I have admitted, none of this has been done flawlessly but the game is certainly usable as is for the purposes I have listed.

What about Starfleet Command 2? It does all those things.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

That's reaching a bit.

It's a space combat simulator, isn't it? I'm not much of a Trekkie (particularly since they released Quantum Leap 2: Enterprise), so I haven't played it.

It may do the things NWN does over and above other RPG construction sets, but it doesn't do the stuff they all have in common - RPG construction.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, let's see. It has a world map which you're free to move around on. You get Prestige points(read experience points) for doing missions and defeating enemy ships. You use these Prestige points to make your ship better or get a new ship. You have Officers(read skills) which gain experience through use, and can affect everything from dialogue to how well you fight.

It's more of an RPG than a lot of things they pass off as CRPGs these days.

 

[Rosh]

You told me once you thought the measure of the NWN editors was that the player community will not survive far past its initial release. Do these better editors still have active player communities?

Oh, yes. Definitely. Some have been going for years.

I'd be interested in the names of these editors. If they are better than NWN, I'll definitely buy them to so I can play some of the modules being made with them.

First off..."modules". *snicker*

Second, you wouldn't have to buy the editors.

Third, you have a brain (I guess), go do your own research and find out what they are.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

First off..."modules". *snicker*

Huh? What are you kids calling them these days, then?

Third, you have a brain (I guess), go do your own research and find out what they are.

I've not been able to find any. I suspect that the games to which you alluded are not as clearly superior as you claimed and that you're avoiding giving names so that people won't be able to check up on your claims by comparing those games to NWN directly.

Well, let's see. It has a world map which you're free to move around on. You get Prestige points(read experience points) for doing missions and defeating enemy ships. You use these Prestige points to make your ship better or get a new ship. You have Officers(read skills) which gain experience through use, and can affect everything from dialogue to how well you fight.

It's more of an RPG than a lot of things they pass off as CRPGs these days.

Your description fits Fallout Tactics. Is FOT an RPG?

Starship Command is not billed on it's own website as an RPG.

 

[Rosh]

Huh? What are you kids calling them these days, then?

No, modules what the kids are calling them these days, kid. They are a relatively new term, recently borrowed from P&P.

I've not been able to find any. I suspect that the games to which you alluded are not as clearly superior as you claimed and that you're avoiding giving names so that people won't be able to check up on your claims by comparing those games to NWN directly.

Oh, they have far more capability. They just don't have that makes the cattle moo, so to speak. Even those with minimal programming capability could utilize many of the avilable editors and learn more about programming and even modify the core of the code base, which is something I doublt you could do with NWN's editors, could you? With NWN, you'll have to deal with the bugs and have to patch first with the 10 or so that are said to be out already, and then if you run into another bug, you're going to have to wait until that gets fixed. See, these are limitless, whereas with NWN you work in the limits of what they have set and if there's a bug you'll have to live with it IF/WHEN it gets fixed.

As for giving you a hint about what they are, I'm not going to coddle your lazy, clueless ass. Go ahead and keep being the blithely argumentative twat you always have been, with posts filled with hyperbole, straw men, and tangents. Then, keep whining because people are tired of your clueless pap and give you what they would give any other conversational grease-head.

Is it any wonder you get called a "floundering simpleton"?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Your description fits Fallout Tactics. Is FOT an RPG?

Funny, I think I mentioned a speech skill, which FOT didn't have.

However, it's kind of funny that IWD2 is supposedly a CRPG and FOT isn't.

Starship Command is not billed on it's own website as an RPG.

Starfleet Command, and it really doesn't matter what it says on it's website. The features it offers are more than enough to make a case that it is.

 

[Deathy]

What they say is an RPG and what they say isn't has no standing on whether or not it is an RPG.

They say Diablo is an RPG, yet they don't say that Elite is an RPG, and I ask you, which is more of an RPG?

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

However, it's kind of funny that IWD2 is supposedly a CRPG and FOT isn't.

You said skills affect dialogue, which is not the same thing.

No, modules what the kids are calling them these days, kid. They are a relatively new term, recently borrowed from P&P.

"Modules" and "scenarios" are what I've always called them. I came into RPG through D&D about 20 years ago, and it's what they were called at that time, before any of the modern games systems were created and before home computers had become widespread/advanced enough for there even to be a market for CRPGs. It means "an adventure written for a game system." NWN uses it because their modules have an identical relationship to the CRPG system as "N1: Against the Cult of the Reptile God" (for example) had to the AD&D game system.

It's an appropriate use of the term, particularly since it capitalises on any existing familarity people may have with the concept. Since we're talking about D&D based games in this thread, I believe it was right for me to use the term. If you would like to introduce a new term, for the sake of distancing yourself from D&D and making your dislike for the system plain, that's your perrogative. However, be aware that introduction of unnecessary and innappropriate extra terms runs the risk of creating confusion and inconsistency within the discussion.

Even those with minimal programming capability could utilize many of the avilable editors and learn more about programming

They are tools for creating games, not learning programming.

and even modify the core of the code base, which is something I doublt you could do with NWN's editors, could you?

If you know anything about software, you'll see the problems with modifying the core codebase when dealing with a client/server system or a system that relies on standalone client apps with a wide distribution.

What they say is an RPG and what they say isn't has no standing on whether or not it is an RPG.

They say Diablo is an RPG, yet they don't say that Elite is an RPG, and I ask you, which is more of an RPG?

I can see the truth in this, but there is a big difference between a company saying a game is an RPG and it not measuring up and a company saying a game is a strategic combat simulator and it turning out to be a good RPG. It would essentially mean they created an RPG by accident.

That said, I have not played Star Fleet Command 2 and I trust S_P's opinion about such things (although not as much as I used to, for obvious reasons). I can take it on faith that it's a decent CRPG and that it can be used to make decent CRPG modules. If I ever want to make a Star Trek game (or play one made by others) that will be my first stop.

I'm also open to the possibility that, if SFC2 can do all the things NWN can do and does them as welll, and if it has a thriving community of players making modules, IT may have been more groundbreaking than NWN.

 

[Rosh]

(snip misc drivel)

Irrelevent, really. Nice drawing to a tangent, again.

Modules have not been used to designate game additions until recently, which I pointed out. Sorry, but that time you wasted in posting that useless bullshit was wasted.

Even those with minimal programming capability could utilize many of the avilable editors and learn more about programming

They are tools for creating games, not learning programming.

In CONTEXT, dipshit. You've got this habit for wanting to skew things out of context. NOT THIS TIME, JACKASS.

To put it simply and in deference to you, it means that even those without knowledge of programming could use them, but as they use them, they may learn something about programming.

and even modify the core of the code base, which is something I doublt you could do with NWN's editors, could you?

If you know anything about software, you'll see the problems with modifying the core codebase when dealing with a client/server system or a system that relies on standalone client apps with a wide distribution.

How the fuck do you think Counter-Strike, TFC, and many other mods do it?

Thank you for playing, and again proving yourself to be a fucking retard.

No, please don't fuck. The idea of you having offspring really scares me.

EDIT: Oh, and to further point something out. What I've been talking about wouldn't run into such a problem. Thank you for playing. So, could you tell me what a "dumb client" is, and what it's advantages are? No, I'm not referring your relationship to your ISP, either.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You said skills affect dialogue, which is not the same thing.

Oh! My bad! Okay, son, name me some of them high filutin' skills that FOT had that affected dialogue then since it's your contention that what I said sounded like Fallout Tactics.

That said, I have not played Star Fleet Command 2 and I trust S_P's opinion about such things (although not as much as I used to, for obvious reasons). I can take it on faith that it's a decent CRPG and that it can be used to make decent CRPG modules. If I ever want to make a Star Trek game (or play one made by others) that will be my first stop.

There are gobs of custom scenarios/missions for SFC2 out there, and for SFC and SFC2:OP as well. Here's probably the best place to check, even though they're on GameSpy now:

http://www.strategyplanet.com/sfc/

There are gobs of custom models for all the SFC games as well. Because the API for the game is C++, you can do quite a bit with it.

I'm also open to the possibility that, if SFC2 can do all the things NWN can do and does them as welll, and if it has a thriving community of players making modules, IT may have been more groundbreaking than NWN.

Including being a massively multiplayer universe with many player run "dynaverses".

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'm also open to the possibility that, if SFC2 can do all the things NWN can do and does them as welll, and if it has a thriving community of players making modules, IT may have been more groundbreaking than NWN.

You need to realize that SFC2 didn't get the amount of press hype as NWN did. If it did you can wager your vestigal organs that it'd have gotten a large fanbase. The game, although I myself have never played it, certainly did get some very nice lasting impressions on those who did play it. It had as much potential as NWN did.

The same with such moddable games like Freespace 2 (which does have quite a large fanbase, not to mention some kickass campaigns and mods) and IWar2; both of which have their source codes released, and are definitely kick ass games which I have indeed played.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

(snip misc drivel)

Irrelevent, really. Nice drawing to a tangent, again.

You introduced the side issue of whether to call them modules or not. If you wanted the discussion to remain tightly focused on the point, you should have exercised a little self-control instead of indulging yourself by inclusion of silly insults.

Modules have not been used to designate game additions until recently, which I pointed out. Sorry, but that time you wasted in posting that useless bullshit was wasted.

Simply not true. Anyone playing PnP in the 80s will be able to tell you that "module" was a pretty standard term and the the modules for NWN fulfil an identical role,and are therefore able to be covered by the same term.

To put it simply and in deference to you, it means that even those without knowledge of programming could use them, but as they use them, they may learn something about programming.

So you say. It's a bit hard to judge for ourselves exactly what can be achieved with these tools without programming, as you refuse to name them.

How the fuck do you think Counter-Strike, TFC, and many other mods do it?

CS suffers horribly from one of the problems to which I was referring - ease of hacking.

Also, I don't play CS, but as I understand FPS mods, you have to download a seperate (very large) client to run the games with alternate codebase. This is one of the other problems. If each one (or even a significant number) of the 1000+ modules of NWN required seperate client, it would be far less workable as a solution for most of the players and mod makers.

EDIT: Oh, and to further point something out. What I've been talking about wouldn't run into such a problem. Thank you for playing. So, could you tell me what a "dumb client" is, and what it's advantages are?

Dumb clients suffer some of the same disadvantages and some of their own.

If you have a dumb client, and want to allow people to modify the game's codebase, you have to have either:

1) a server (and communication protocol) sophisticated enough to work with an unspecified client.

2) update every server (or build a new server) everytime time a new client is released.

3) bundle the main part of the game codebase (any bits you want people to be able to change) into the mods themselves.

The fact is, this type of flexibility comes at a price. Where you pay the price in the games creators' control, but the price is always hefty, and gets passed on to the user, one way or another.

S_P, I don't know enough about either FOT or SFC2 to talk about them in the depth you're asking. As I said, I'm willing to trust you that SFC2 is a decent RPG and goundbreaking in the way you said NWN was not.

In light of Exitium's input, I'm also open to viewing a large player base as not required for the game to be considered groundbreaking.

However, I do still consider NWN a big step forward, possibly still groundbreaking (perhaps only in the context of fantasy CRPG's).

 

[Rosh]

You introduced the side issue of whether to call them modules or not. If you wanted the discussion to remain tightly focused on the point, you should have exercised a little self-control instead of indulging yourself by inclusion of silly insults.

Please whine. The entertainment value alone is fun, albeit in a guilty way.

Modules have not been used to designate game additions until recently, which I pointed out. Sorry, but that time you wasted in posting that useless bullshit was wasted.

Simply not true. Anyone playing PnP in the 80s will be able to tell you that "module" was a pretty standard term and the the modules for NWN fulfil an identical role,and are therefore able to be covered by the same term.

Nice dodge. NOT.

Okay, for the third and last time until I call the SPCA to gas your dumb-as-a-brick ass.

Modules have not been used to refer to computer game additions (mostly just CRPGs) until recently.

Clear enough for you? There's that context thing again, dipshit. User-created add-ons have not been called "modules" in computer gaming until recently.

If you want to argue more, that's your problem, twit.

To put it simply and in deference to you, it means that even those without knowledge of programming could use them, but as they use them, they may learn something about programming.

So you say. It's a bit hard to judge for ourselves exactly what can be achieved with these tools without programming, as you refuse to name them.

Nice (attempt of a) dodge to try and pull your foot from your mouth from your previous statement.

You're not drawing that one any more out of context, Sparky, so don't even try.

How the fuck do you think Counter-Strike, TFC, and many other mods do it?

CS suffers horribly from one of the problems to which I was referring - ease of hacking.

Also, I don't play CS, but as I understand FPS mods, you have to download a seperate (very large) client to run the games with alternate codebase. This is one of the other problems. If each one (or even a significant number) of the 1000+ modules of NWN required seperate client, it would be far less workable as a solution for most of the players and mod makers.

As I guessed, you're a clueless twat, as usual. The above is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever had the displeasure to read.

Anyone who is even barely knowledgeable about mods know that they act as a supplement to the original program, add in code to work, while not interfering with the original program. To put it simply, they do not need a separate client, but a client addition or modification (usually they will splice off a copy of the core program and patch in the changes in the case of total conversion mods, but still not requiring you to d/l a whole new client). Mostly, it's downloading the skins, handling code, and sound files.

Again, thank you for proving yourself to be paddling around the shallow end of the gene pool. Not only are you completely clueless about FPS mods, but I suspect modding in general.

You wonder why I call you a moron, it's because you're arguing persistently about material you know nothing about.

Dumb clients suffer some of the same disadvantages and some of their own.

If you have a dumb client, and want to allow people to modify the game's codebase, you have to have either:

This is going to be rich...let's see how badly you did...

1) a server (and communication protocol) sophisticated enough to work with an unspecified client.

2) update every server (or build a new server) everytime time a new client is released.

3) bundle the main part of the game codebase (any bits you want people to be able to change) into the mods themselves.

No, you waffling moron, a dumb client means that the server does basically everything. Therefore, it just throws commands to the server and the server processes them and spits back the results.

To hold your hand in an explanation, here's an example. Try not to get lost.

There is something called UOX. It emulates UO's servers, where the cost-free server admins can do whatever they want in terms of development, and it will still use the official UO client without any client-side patches.

The funny thing is, they can add in new skills and other material quite easily, no patching required on the client's part or anything needing to implement this. All the changes are done to the server and all the player needs to do is change some config settings and they can play.

That is because essentially, the UO Client program is what the industry calls a "dumb client".

The fact is, this type of flexibility comes at a price. Where you pay the price in the games creators' control, but the price is always hefty, and gets passed on to the user, one way or another.

Just shut up, Captain Clueless. You're not doing yourself any favors. You're in no position to make any of the above statements when you've proven yourself time and again to be completely Without a Clue™.

However, I do still consider NWN a big step forward, possibly still groundbreaking (perhaps only in the context of fantasy CRPG's).

Hello? Did you even pay attention to the other posts about the UOX servers, and other games that have been around for much longer (and I'm not referring to what I was talking about earlier in this)?

Or are you just going to fanboy around on BioWare's ass some more?

For your statement to even be remotely half-ass correct, it's groundbreaking...for D&D.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Anyone who is even barely knowledgeable about mods know that they act as a supplement to the original program, add in code to work, while not interfering with the original program. To put it simply, they do not need a separate client, but a client addition or modification (usually they will splice off a copy of the core program and patch in the changes in the case of total conversion mods, but still not requiring you to d/l a whole new client). Mostly, it's downloading the skins, handling code, and sound files.

Right. The code for the gameplay in first person shooters is often in the form of DLLs(Quake2, Quake3, Half-Life, etc) or scripts(Quake, Tribes, Tribes 2, UT, etc). You don't alter the client itself since the client loads the scripts or DLL as needed for the game mod you're about to play.

A DLL, BTW, is a compiled library. It's written in C/C++ and then compiled. The client calls out to this external code for the functions it needs. For example, when you fire the gun, the client registers this mouse action, then looks at the code in the DLL to tell it what the effect of this action is.

Also, there are limitations for this. You can only modify what's in the DLL code itself. You can't alter things that are contained within the client or the rendering engine. I.e. you can't make a mod for Half-life adding 32bit color and environmental bumpmapping without the source to the client itself.

 

[Rosh]

Also, there are limitations for this. You can only modify what's in the DLL code itself. You can't alter things that are contained within the client or the rendering engine. I.e. you can't make a mod for Half-life adding 32bit color and environmental bumpmapping without the source to the client itself.

The above snipped, very true. As for modifications to the client itself, there's a few notable TC conversions that do modify the game's source, but that is by cloning the game and patching in the new material.

Separate client, indeed... I'm still laughing.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Also, I don't play CS, but as I understand FPS mods, you have to download a seperate (very large) client to run the games with alternate codebase. This is one of the other problems. If each one (or even a significant number) of the 1000+ modules of NWN required seperate client, it would be far less workable as a solution for most of the players and mod makers.

As I guessed, you're a clueless twat, as usual. The above is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever had the displeasure to read.

Anyone who is even barely knowledgeable about mods know that they act as a supplement to the original program, add in code to work, while not interfering with the original program. To put it simply, they do not need a separate client, but a client addition or modification (usually they will splice off a copy of the core program and patch in the changes in the case of total conversion mods, but still not requiring you to d/l a whole new client). Mostly, it's downloading the skins, handling code, and sound files.

Of course it makes use of the original code. That doesn't get around the fact you still have a different client for every mod and still have a very large download to get there.

1) a server (and communication protocol) sophisticated enough to work with an unspecified client.

2) update every server (or build a new server) everytime time a new client is released.

3) bundle the main part of the game codebase (any bits you want people to be able to change) into the mods themselves.

No, you waffling moron, a dumb client means that the server does basically everything. Therefore, it just throws commands to the server and the server processes them and spits back the results.

No, the server does not do "basically everything." The client does a whole lot of things, centered around processing the data from the server and making it meaningful on the player's machine (and of course returning information to the server). On platforms other than network terminals, the client also does all the interaction with the O/S of the client machine.

"Dumb client" is inaccurate in the way you are using it. Dumb clients would not be possible for a computer game, or any app running on a PC. The best you can hope for is a thin client.

There is something called UOX. It emulates UO's servers, where the cost-free server admins can do whatever they want in terms of development, and it will still use the official UO client without any client-side patches.

The funny thing is, they can add in new skills and other material quite easily, no patching required on the client's part or anything needing to implement this. All the changes are done to the server and all the player needs to do is change some config settings and they can play.

This is number (2) on my list, above.

 

[Sheriff_Fatman]

Right. The code for the gameplay in first person shooters is often in the form of DLLs(Quake2, Quake3, Half-Life, etc) or scripts(Quake, Tribes, Tribes 2, UT, etc). You don't alter the client itself since the client loads the scripts or DLL as needed for the game mod you're about to play.

A DLL, BTW, is a compiled library. It's written in C/C++ and then compiled. The client calls out to this external code for the functions it needs. For example, when you fire the gun, the client registers this mouse action, then looks at the code in the DLL to tell it what the effect of this action is.

Also, there are limitations for this. You can only modify what's in the DLL code itself. You can't alter things that are contained within the client or the rendering engine. I.e. you can't make a mod for Half-life adding 32bit color and environmental bumpmapping without the source to the client itself.

The DLL is part of the client software, S_P. So are the scripts to use it. The distinction being that it is software deployed onto the client machine in order to run the game. Being in the compiled exe isn't the distinction, or half the files installed during the game installation would have to be considered not part of the client, despite the fact the game seriously breaks if you delete them.