Editorial CRPGs stagnating since 1997 thingy at RPGDot

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Geneforge

<a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/">RPGDot</a> has a nifty little <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=620">editorial</a> about how the CRPG genre is stagnating right now, which I tend to agree that it is on the publisher side front. I doubt he's checked out any shareware, though, since many of the things he seems to like were found in <A href="http://www.spidweb.com/geneforge/index.html">Geneforge</a>. Here's a clip:
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<blockquote>So what's the problem, right? Well, most people would point to one of two games as responsible for the current rebirth of the genre - Bethesda Softworks' Daggerfall, or Interplay/Black Isle's Fallout. RPG's had effectively stagnated by 1997, after being a driving force for the first fifteen years of computer gaming - originally because the genre lent itself to text based, rule heavy adventures prior to the advent of graphics, but also because developers poured themselves into making engrossing, creative, and long games that took full advantage of the power of home computers. The Gold Box games, The Ultima series, Wasteland, Wizardry, the list goes on and on? until the early to mid 90's. This part has been well documented, so I'll leave it at that, but suffice it to say that the genre was in need of rejuvenation, and 1996 - 1997 brought just that.</blockquote>
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Of course, the irony is that he praises the Infinity Engine games like <A href="http://www.interplay.com/bgate/">Baldur's Gate</a>, even though they'd probably be near the top of the list for the <i>reason</i> CRPGs have stagnated.
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Thanks to <b>Sean Watson</b> for the head's up.

 

[Volourn]

Other than the Ultima series; I'd take the stagnated modern crpg market than the ones during the early 90's.

 

[EEVIAC]

Does anyone know how well Daggerfall sold? Leon has stated that Fallout sold app 300,000 - 400,000 worldwide over its lifetime, which might explain why many of its good ideas are not being replicated in today's RPG's.

I think publishers are inherently stupid. Perhaps blind is a better word. I think publishers equate RPG's with D&D. Fullstop. Unfortunately, as much as I enjoyed Buck Rogers and Fountain of Dreams and Fallout, I can't name a non-fantasy game that has sold more than its fantasy counterpart. Publishers will look at games like Harbinger, see "Diablo in Space" and conclude, in their idiotic marketing, money-centric, analytical pea-brains that the reason it didn't sell well was that it wasn't fantasy, with Dragons to kill.

But Diablo sold bucket loads!!!

As much as I love Troika and their contribution to gaming, I can see ToEE as being rather successfull, which is only going to reinforce this unholy D&D/RPG collusion. If ToEE shifts 250 000 units, do you think Troika will get a contract for three years for an original RPG, or will be they be grinded into another 18 month development cycle, maybe less seeing as the rules are already established, for a quick fire sequel to get as much cash out of the diehard TB RPG grognards?

 

[Binary]

Of course, the irony is that he praises the Infinity Engine games like <A href="http://www.interplay.com/bgate/">Baldur's Gate</a>, even though they'd probably be near the top of the list for the <i>reason</i> CRPGs have stagnated.

You aren't being fair IMHO. I don't like the game either, but in a period in time that every gaiming company believed 3d/FP to be the best thing since sliced bread, and RPGs were all within the quality of Lands of Lore 2 and similars, Baldur's Gate showed the world that isometric 3d (actually a "fake" 3d) was still alive & kicking, and gave inspiration for other isometric 3d games to be produced, including Fallout.

 

[Spazmo]

You aren't being fair IMHO. I don't like the game either, but in a period in time that every gaiming company believed 3d/FP to be the best thing since sliced bread, and RPGs were all within the quality of Lands of Lore 2 and similars, Baldur's Gate showed the world that isometric 3d (actually a "fake" 3d) was still alive & kicking, and gave inspiration for other isometric 3d games to be produced, including Fallout.

Surely you jest. Surely you cannot wholeheartedly believe what you have just written. Surely this is a great joke!

It's not, is it? All right then. First off, doesn't it seem odd to you that Baldur's Gate inspired the creation of 'other isometric 3d games...including Fallout' when a) Fallout came out at least a full year before Baldur's Gate and b) Fallout was a full 2D game? If anything, Fallout sparked this 'isometric RPG' thing you're talking about.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What Spazmo said.

Btw, it's not the first time I hear people saying that BG single-handedly revived the RPG genre, saved the D&D license, inspired Fallout, and other nonsense falling just a bit short from delivering world peace What makes people think that?

 

[Volourn]

You mean it didn't deliver world peace? Damn.

 

[Astromarine]

Nope. Sorry, but someone forgot to give Saddam a copy of the game. I believe it was one of the great tragedies of the century.

Oh, and please excuse Binary. His fact-checking switch must be off today. He isn't usually that, erm, I guess "dumb" is the word here?

 

[Volourn]

Tsk, tsk. The distributers hsould be charged with relckless endangerment of humanity. Hehe. Anyways,..

On topic, I think too many look at the early 90's with nostalgia. The games back then were almost universally dunegon crawls at even a higher level than the more modern ones.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You mean it didn't deliver world peace? Damn

It came very close though. It helped focus morons' destuctive energies into blind love for BG series that turned into religious zeal by the time NWN came out, upon which the Temple of NWN was found, spreading its influence in many countries. Unfortunately, the majority of followers suffered from attention deficit disorder and abnormally low IQ and thus were unable to follow orders and understand basic concepts like world domination. The whole thing started falling through cracks by the time SoU was released

 

[Psilon]

Yes, largely because most of the cultists were stuck running into interior doors while trying to unlock their cars.

 

[Whipporowill]

As much as I love Troika and their contribution to gaming, I can see ToEE as being rather successfull, which is only going to reinforce this unholy D&D/RPG collusion. If ToEE shifts 250 000 units, do you think Troika will get a contract for three years for an original RPG, or will be they be grinded into another 18 month development cycle, maybe less seeing as the rules are already established, for a quick fire sequel to get as much cash out of the diehard TB RPG grognards?

Well, they do have two full teams at m, and Tim's made mention of the possibilty of setting up a third one (the maximum he thinks he can handle and still be involved with actually making the games)...

So let's say Team A makes ToEE sequel, Team B finishes Bloodlines and Team C something brand-spanking-original.

I don't think Troika runs the same risk as going to hell as BIS has, basically since they run themselves and are not sticky-glued to a publisher... *cough*

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You aren't being fair IMHO. I don't like the game either, but in a period in time that every gaiming company believed 3d/FP to be the best thing since sliced bread, and RPGs were all within the quality of Lands of Lore 2 and similars, Baldur's Gate showed the world that isometric 3d (actually a "fake" 3d) was still alive & kicking, and gave inspiration for other isometric 3d games to be produced, including Fallout.

Ummm.. Spazmo is correct..

Fallout: Released October 1997
Fallout 2: Released October 1998
Baldur's Gate: Released December 1998

Both Fallout and Fallout 2 were released before Baldur's Gate. Diablo was also released 1997. So, BG followed a wave of isometric viewpoint games in or related to the genre.

Furthermore, none of these games were 3D. Fallout, Fallout 2, and Diablo all used tile based isometric graphics. Baldur's Gate used a large scrolling bitmap, chopped in to smaller segments. All games used pre-rendered sprites. None of them used anything remotely relatable to real-time mesh rendering.

 

[Jed]

All games used pre-rendered sprites. None of them used anything remotely relatable to real-time mesh rendering.

If I recall correctly, I think PoR2: RoMD was the first CRPG to do this...though in BG2 (I think), allegedly you could turn on an option that would add "3d enhancement" to the k3wl spell effects, and perhaps this should have been a tip to Bioware's future priorities...

 

[EEVIAC]

So let's say Team A makes ToEE sequel, Team B finishes Bloodlines and Team C something brand-spanking-original.

I'd guess that would be the most probable scenario if ToEE is successfull. Then again, does that relegate Team A to being a "mop" team? If the Vampire game is also successfull and Activision wants Trokia to do an expansion, do Team A do it or do the Vampire team get back to work on the license?

 

[Binary]

Big "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!!" from me

I do tend to mix up dates very frequently. Sorry about that. Doesn't help either that Fallout was released in stores in Portugal almost a year after being released in the US, IIRC. I definitely remember getting my hands on BG1 before Fallout 1.

Sorry once again.

EDIT: Also, I know these games weren't 3d at all -- I'm just used to calling that visual perspective as "isometric 3d"

 

[Briosafreak]

Hello Binary, também sou de Portugal, bem vindo.

The isometric 3d thing is a common saying around these parts, but it`s wrong, i never used it. Fallout1 was released with some delay, but Fallout2 ws released at the same time as in the rest of europe, at the most there was a 1 month delay regarding Britain, i saw the first review on December 1998, and i saw it at my local D&D, MtG and videogames store early on 1999.
So you are a bit mixed up again , there were a few that played Fallout2 after BG was released, through an OEM version that came for free on the Player magazine, but that`s it.
So as you see Spazmo is right, BG is an interesting game because the sales it had helped CRPGs getting more spotlight, but that`s it, the hard work had been done previously.

Try this editorial on RPGDot to get a clearer picture of who have done what and when.

Saint i put this RPGDot thing a couple of weeks ago on NMA, you`ll have to start reading all the news there now

 

[Binary]

Olá, pelo nick vejo que deves ser de Coimbra

Anyway, I'm not confused on that department, I know I have played BG1 way before Fallout 1. At least where I live, I only found Fallout 1 way before I had played BG1 (which I had preordered from the USA, maybe that's the reason hehhehe ). Or maybe I didn't look too hard in the local stores.

Dates aside, Fallout is undoubtedly a much better game than BG.

 

[Astromarine]

Coimbra? naah, achas?

Anyway, that time for me is mainly a drunken blur, but I think I distinctly remember playing BG first. Which was odd, considering in those days when games competed with beer from the bars in Braga (and lost) for my meager student allowance. I played mainly warezzed versions, so it's funny that the pirates got me BG first. Maybe I just missed Fallout under my radar when it came out originally, and it only became a hot "item" in Braga after BG "popularized" Isometric RPGs...

 

[Briosafreak]

Olá, pelo nick vejo que deves ser de Coimbra

Coimbra? naah, achas?

A sério, nota-se tanto assim?

BG was a massive seller , and a warez champion , around here, while Fallout was a cult game, plaied by very few ; while i was following Tactics development (a disapointement to many) i`ve met quite a few portuguese fallout fans , and a few did play FO after BG, the Player mag OEM version of FO2 helped. But quite a few more playied before, that`s for sure, like everywhere else.
But also in fact many new gamers found out CRPGs with BG, like i said the massive sales helped many descovering other games like Fallout, wich is curious, since Fallout opened the path for the success of BG, that was first created as a Warcraft-like RTS, and Iplay had the D&D license and needed to put up something with it since PS:T was the only thing they had at that time Bioware was convinced to change it .

Each game has a particular place in CRPG history, that´s for sure.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

EDIT: Also, I know these games weren't 3d at all -- I'm just used to calling that visual perspective as "isometric 3d"

Kind of like Spiderweb Software does? :D

 

[Binary]

EDIT: Also, I know these games weren't 3d at all -- I'm just used to calling that visual perspective as "isometric 3d"

Kind of like Spiderweb Software does? :D

First one I started calling "isometric 3d" was in fact Ultima 8.

Speaking of Spiderweb, to be honest I preferred the 2d of the Exile games than the isometric...errr... 2d of the new Avernum/Geneforge.