Development Info Putting Holes in Stuff the JE Sawyer Way

[Jason]

Tags: Fallout: New Vegas; J.E. Sawyer

Obsidian's J.E. Sawyer <a href="http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?s=07034c4e2e7d6754171c958e480589e7&showtopic=54663&st=165&p=1029025&#entry1029025" target="blank">let it be known</a> that <a href="http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Threshold" target="blank">damage threshold</a> is returning to the Fallout series with <b>Fallout: New Vegas</b>.
<br>
<blockquote>Imagine that there is an amount of damage that armor directly subtracts from damage... a "threshold" of damage, if you will. While a small percentage of damage may get through even the thickest armor, damage threshold can effectively neutralize a lot of small arms. Fallout 1 and 2 used numerical feedback to let the player know when their weapons weren't doing any damage. In F3 and F:NV, the player only sees enemy health meters that represent a percentage of total health rather than an exact value. This makes it difficult to tell how effective an enemy's armor is (as opposed to the target simply having a ton of health). In F:NV, the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.
<br>
<br>
High RoF weapons typically have a low DAM, high DPS. E.g. 10mm SMG. Low RoF weapons are the opposite. E.g. Hunting Rifle. F:NV's Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance. Having both of these values visible has also allowed us to revise the calculation of DAM/DPS values to be less abstract and more accurate. Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle. Add ammo subtypes and mods into the mix and there are a lot of ways to optimize the gear you carry and use. </blockquote>
<br>
<i>Thanks to Ausir for pointing this out</i>

 

[SerratedBiz]

So we introduced this cool mechanic that ensured you would need to use different weapons to approach different challenges, and then we made sure we included a weapon that was powerful enough to invalidate this increase in difficulty.

/codex

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I wish developers would start to use RL as an inspiration. With weapons having functions and parameters based on RL ones, not on their weird ideas.
After all, all these weapons were developed for a purpose. They wouldn't be produced and sold if there would be one type of a weapon for all situations.

 

[bhlaab]

So we introduced this cool mechanic that ensured you would need to use different weapons to approach different challenges, and then we made sure we included a weapon that was powerful enough to invalidate this increase in difficulty.

/codex

Which weapon is that?

 

[treave]

So we introduced this cool mechanic that ensured you would need to use different weapons to approach different challenges, and then we made sure we included a weapon that was powerful enough to invalidate this increase in difficulty.

/codex

Which weapon is that?

Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle.

 

[Ausir]

Now read with a bit of comprehenshion.

Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle.

 

[treave]

I stand corrected.

 

[Norfleet]

There's also the fact that, traditionally in Fallout, the 10mm and the hunting rifle represent bottom of the food chain in their respective weapon classes, so you WOULD expect to find weapons that are better than them in every way.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

Fallout 1 and 2 used numerical feedback to let the player know when their weapons weren't doing any damage. In F3 and F:NV, the player only sees enemy health meters that represent a percentage of total health rather than an exact value. This makes it difficult to tell how effective an enemy's armor is (as opposed to the target simply having a ton of health).

If the enemies have so much health that the player can't tell if the enemy is immune to their bullets or just has swimming pools of hit points then I think they have completely different problem on their hands.

Protip: Nobody likes plugging away ten minutes on a bad guy with a move set that can be figured out in ten seconds.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Now read with a bit of comprehenshion.

Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle.

Point taken. But when you say it's effective against -light- armor (so it does have armor penetration), and at the same time saying "better DPS", I'm not so sure the line is as clear as you make it to be.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Better DPS = Higher rate of fire. Doesn't imply it's good against armored targets (I'm assuming "armored" means heavy / medium armor, which is what the Hunting Rifle is good against). The SMG has huge DPS and still is a bad choice against armored targets due to each bullet causing less damage (thus, being resisted by the threshold).

Way I see it, the Cowbow Repeater is better than both against unarmored / light armored targets at long range because the SMG is bad at long range, and while the Hunting Rifle CAN hit targets at long range, the unecessary extra force and the lower rate of fire makes it an obvious bad choice compared to the CR.

Meanwhile, the SMG is better than both at close range if there's no threshold in the way. The distinction is quite clear.

 

[DraQ]

Damage threshold is a very good mechanics, a huge incline compared to most of modern faggotry and I'm more than happy to see it back, but the armour systems shouldn't stop there - kinetic projectiles could be given velocity, mass, AP modifiers to account for their shape and construction (currently dumb, handcoded ones), and drag modifiers to account for them losing velocity and possibly tumbling. Other weapons could be parametrized as well, or their shots be made as compound objects, using multiple simple effects to simulate complex ones. I'm thinking of something like Cortex Command, only refined, more complex, 3D, but without the computationally expensive pixel physics.

Red shield icon, on the other hand is rather fail. PnP RPGs are mostly interface and storytelling, with simplistic mechanics and almost no presentation. Computers on the other hand excel at complex, simulative mechanics and stunning presentation - would it be so hard to shift no penetration feedback from interface (icon) to showing that the projectiles bounce harmlessly of target's armour and the target doesn't even flinch?

 

[1eyedking]

Damage threshold is a very good mechanics, a huge incline compared to most of modern faggotry and I'm more than happy to see it back, but the armour systems shouldn't stop there - kinetic projectiles could be given velocity, mass, AP modifiers to account for their shape and construction (currently dumb, handcoded ones), and drag modifiers to account for them losing velocity and possibly tumbling. Other weapons could be parametrized as well, or their shots be made as compound objects, using multiple simple effects to simulate complex ones. I'm thinking of something like Cortex Command, only refined, more complex, 3D, but without the computationally expensive pixel physics.

Would be cool but it's bad design all over, sends the KISS principle to shit.

 

[roll-a-die]

Would be cool but it's bad design all over, sends the KISS principle to shit.

Not to mention it would be HELL to actually code. And would screw up the encapsulation principle so bad it's not even funny.

 

[DraQ]

Would be cool but it's bad design all over, sends the KISS principle to shit.

So does the KISS prinicple being formulated too confusingly for you to grasp what it is and where it is applicable.

Not to mention it would be HELL to actually code.

And hilariously easy to code content for later on.
No free lunch, you see.

And would screw up the encapsulation principle so bad it's not even funny.

How so?

 

[praetor]

Better DPS = Higher rate of fire.

no. DPS=/=ROF.

a weapon with 50 points of damage/shot that fires 1 shot every second would have a better DPS but lower ROF than a weapon that fires 20 shots/sec with each dealing 2 points of damage

 

[Luzur]

Cowboy Repeater.

now thats a gay name for a gun.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Better DPS = Higher rate of fire.

no. DPS=/=ROF.

a weapon with 50 points of damage/shot that fires 1 shot every second would have a better DPS but lower ROF than a weapon that fires 20 shots/sec with each dealing 2 points of damage

Hm, that's right. Brain fart induced by imagining the weapon effects on armored targets. Rest of the post should be right, though.

 

[spacemoose]

stay tuned for next weeks episode: "putting stuff in holes the chris avellone way"

 

[bhlaab]

would it be so hard to shift no penetration feedback from interface (icon) to showing that the projectiles bounce harmlessly of target's armour and the target doesn't even flinch?

yeah actually it probably would

 

[DraQ]

would it be so hard to shift no penetration feedback from interface (icon) to showing that the projectiles bounce harmlessly of target's armour and the target doesn't even flinch?

yeah actually it probably would

It amounts to playing an animation while spawning "blood splatter" effect if the passing damage rounds to >0, and not playing an animation while spawning "ricochet" effect otherwise, FFS.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't think a threshold would be so fucking high a projectile wouldn't make the target even flinch. It'd look weird, even Robocop flinched a little when under heavy fire. We would need a "FUCK that hurt" and a "Ooof...close, but no cigar" animation.

And Beth can't animate for shit, so...

 

[bhlaab]

I think there is a very small minimum amount of damage done anyway even if the shield comes up to kind of avoid the super-invincibility that plagued each Fallout's endgame

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The old fallouts had criticals that ate right through DT. Your power armor could have high enough DT to completely stop a normal shot, but if you got hit in the eyes it was over - you took 150 damage instead of 200 but you were still dead.

I didn't play FO3 so I'm not sure if it was the same way but 1 and 2 had that solution to invincibility armor, for what it's worth.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah. What Power Armour did was to remove the "chipping away your HP"-mechanic, since only really bad crits or overwhelming normal damage were dangerous.