Editorial Why RPGs are Such a Pain in the Ass

[Jason]

Tags: Frayed Knights

<p>Jay "Rampant Coyote" Barnson would like to share with you the secrets of <a href="http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=696" target="_blank">why RPGs are so hard to create</a>.</p>
<blockquote><strong>Variety of Interconnected Game Systems and Activities</strong>&nbsp; &ndash; A good RPG is effectively several games in one. The player may participate in several activities &ndash; combat (usually lots of combat), conversations, puzzle-solving, trading, crafting, breeding Chocobos, whatever. This would be bad enough, as the developer creates several games in one, but the various systems interact with each other in subtle yet powerful ways. Or at least they&rsquo;d better, or they are stupid make-work activities.&nbsp; For example, being able to do more effective trading or crafting will impact combat, as you will soon be entering the battlefield with superior equipment.&nbsp; Being able to thrive in combat may in return improve your trading, as you can take down opponents with better loot. That&rsquo;s a positive feedback loop that could go out of control &ndash; which is why you often find merchants in &ldquo;lower level areas&rdquo; with only very limited gear to offer for sale.<br /><br />Balancing these different systems &ndash; effectively different games (even if not very good ones by themselves) &ndash; so they all make a complete whole can be a daunting task, and many mainstream games do a horrible job of it. But others have done an excellent job of it, and it shows. But the bottom line is that it&rsquo;s a lot of extra work, even if done poorly.</blockquote>
<p><br />Pretty sure this whole article was written to provide excuses for why Frayed Knights isn't done yet. Cleve might want to take notes.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=696">Tales of the Rampant Coyote</a></p>

 

[shihonage]

Well he's right. RPG is several games in one. And it's unbelievably difficult to make.

 

[Konjad]

Hmmm...

 

[1eyedking]

Fucking bullshit. RPGs are difficult to design because they are the ones that demand the most amount of thought to be any good, and currently all known developers are either lazy or fucking stupid, or make stuff stupid on purpose.

It's amazing how games nowadays have completely forgotten about sitting the fuck down and thinking through your rule system thoroughly to achieve maximum added value. That, and the value of playtesting, playtesting some more, and then playtesting again. A lazy example of a good start:

Combat: get a solid varied, balanced set. Make all "classes" have different approaches to it, to both avoiding it and getting into it. Each class should be different and fun. Soldiers intimidate/shoot, Thieves sneak/backstab, Leaders employ persuasion/have henchmen. Make a fallback skill common to all classes (either Melee or Pistols, for example).

Weapons: make them unique. Make it so you can only specialize in two of them (IF you go Soldier, otherwise you would only pick either one or none). No "weapon A > weapon B" bullshit. Examples:
- Melee & Throwing: once you engage in melee, no other weapons can be used. Add Throwing so it has more value.
- Pistols: moderate only at short distance. Common to all classes, increases automatically with level.
- Shotguns: nearly unstoppable at very short. Runs risk of getting into melee. Sucks at all other distances
- SMGs: good at short distance. Bad at mid/long distance.
- Rifles: good at mid/long distance, bad at short/very long. Takes a lot of AP to use.
- Sniper rifles: excellent at long and very long distance. Horribly bad at short/mid distance.
- Assault Rifles: costs a shitload of points to increase. And I mean a shitload, so much it would become your only good skill. Kicks ass at all distances except very long.

The key here is to nail down movement cost correctly. It depends on how many squares (quantized ) or meters/feet (linear) you set your range types at (melee, very short, short, mid, long, very long).

Stealth: get a good number system on lighting, surface. Code surfaces to have given values, light sources applying values to a matrix. Check these numbers against Perception/Awareness skill of an enemy.

There's also all the Non-combat skills, Items, Locations, story, dialogue, etc., etc. RPGs are heavy on the design department, no doubt. And it's precisely why there's so few good of them.

 

[Lemunde]

Sounds like a lot of whining to me. It also sounds like this person doesn't like making RPGs. Anyone who likes what they do for a living won't be complaining about it. And honestly if a game isn't fun to make it's not going to be fun to play. I'll pass on this one.

 

[Norfleet]

- Assault Rifles: costs a shitload of points to increase. And I mean a shitload, so much it would become your only good skill. Kicks ass at all distances except very long.

Oh, come now. Assault rifles are easy to use. Some of them are designed to be so simple a child can use them. Proof: They do! As far as becoming GOOD with them, they are no more difficult than any other gun, and the skillset basically overlaps heavily. The fact of the matter is that they are simply NOT difficult to use, which is why they have nearly entirely supplanted melee combat, and entirely done so in any serious context.

 

[muds_animal_friend]

Fucking bullshit. RPGs are difficult to design because they are the ones that demand the most amount of thought to be any good, and currently all known developers are either lazy or fucking stupid, or make stuff stupid on purpose.

This. Contrasted by the fact that developers were shitting RPGs out of their arses by the rate of one a week in the late 80s and early 90s. And, as rule-focused and crude on some levels as they were, most of them still trump the barely interactive turds labelled RPG today

 

[Radisshu]

- Assault Rifles: costs a shitload of points to increase. And I mean a shitload, so much it would become your only good skill. Kicks ass at all distances except very long.

Oh, come now. Assault rifles are easy to use. Some of them are designed to be so simple a child can use them. Proof: They do! As far as becoming GOOD with them, they are no more difficult than any other gun, and the skillset basically overlaps heavily. The fact of the matter is that they are simply NOT difficult to use, which is why they have nearly entirely supplanted melee combat, and entirely done so in any serious context.

I think the rules of an RPG should seem relatively plausible compared to real world stuff, but they should put internal stability before realism. If one weapon is superior AND easy to use, why focus on any other build?

 

[1eyedking]

Oh, come now. Assault rifles are easy to use. Some of them are designed to be so simple a child can use them. Proof: They do! As far as becoming GOOD with them, they are no more difficult than any other gun, and the skillset basically overlaps heavily. The fact of the matter is that they are simply NOT difficult to use, which is why they have nearly entirely supplanted melee combat, and entirely done so in any serious context.

Fuck realism. Balance comes first in games.

/edit: the gentleman above me phrased what I said more eloquently. Ignore me.

Bonus:

But that never stopped me from throwing in my $0.2 before.

$0.2 = Twenty cents.

 

[shihonage]

Sounds like a lot of whining to me. It also sounds like this person doesn't like making RPGs. Anyone who likes what they do for a living won't be complaining about it. And honestly if a game isn't fun to make it's not going to be fun to play. I'll pass on this one.

The difference between playing a game and making one, is the difference between riding a rollercoaster and building one.

No good game is truly fun to make. Yes, it is fun "at times", but the majority of the time is spent on difficult, and often mundane, work.

Things get easier once you have an established engine, though, like Vogel does.

 

[RampantCoyote]

Ah! All those guys who are spending thousands of their own dollars and sacrificing evenings and weekends for *years* making indie RPGs that probably won't even break even are doing it because they hate what they do.

Man, I obviously gotta find me a new hobby.

Maybe it's me justifying my own incompetence - or at least trying to understand it. They say the first step to recovery is realizing that you have a problem. Mostly, this was a case of me trying to figure out how in the hell four hours went by testing and fixing a stupid - I hesitate to even call it a puzzle, we'll say "obstacle" - to work properly when it probably only represents five lousy minutes of gameplay. Or I spent all night detailing two rooms that the player is likely to bypass because they are part of a completely optional dungeon.

Next time.... Tile-based dungeons! For sure! (Yeah, right...)

 

[betamin]

- Assault Rifles: costs a shitload of points to increase. And I mean a shitload, so much it would become your only good skill. Kicks ass at all distances except very long.

Oh, come now. Assault rifles are easy to use. Some of them are designed to be so simple a child can use them. Proof: They do! As far as becoming GOOD with them, they are no more difficult than any other gun, and the skillset basically overlaps heavily. The fact of the matter is that they are simply NOT difficult to use, which is why they have nearly entirely supplanted melee combat, and entirely done so in any serious context.

I think the rules of an RPG should seem relatively plausible compared to real world stuff, but they should put internal stability before realism. If one weapon is superior AND easy to use, why focus on any other build?

Maybe you can balance it making it hard for the player to get the weapon/ammo

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

- Assault Rifles: costs a shitload of points to increase. And I mean a shitload, so much it would become your only good skill. Kicks ass at all distances except very long.

Oh, come now. Assault rifles are easy to use. Some of them are designed to be so simple a child can use them. Proof: They do! As far as becoming GOOD with them, they are no more difficult than any other gun, and the skillset basically overlaps heavily. The fact of the matter is that they are simply NOT difficult to use, which is why they have nearly entirely supplanted melee combat, and entirely done so in any serious context.

I think the rules of an RPG should seem relatively plausible compared to real world stuff, but they should put internal stability before realism. If one weapon is superior AND easy to use, why focus on any other build?

You don't. It just makes using that weapon a primary combat skill. You can choose other weapons as supplementary combat skills for special situations - they can also supplement other skills like stealth and disguise. If you focus on a wrong build you suffer the consequences. Just as for picking a funny combination of skills like gambling/first aid/repair.

 

[1eyedking]

You don't. It just makes using that weapon a primary combat skill. You can choose other weapons as supplementary combat skills for special situations - they can also supplement other skills like stealth and disguise. If you focus on a wrong build you suffer the consequences. Just as for picking a funny combination of skills like gambling/first aid/repair.

Bad skills reek bad design. Gambling shouldn't have existed and have been based on a combination of luck, perception and intelligence. That, or at least a perk is what makes it improve.

First Aid should have been paired with Doctor under "Medicine" as a skill that improved the amount of health stimpacks heal (and stimpacks in the game should have been very few), or providing a cap after which reaching Super Stimpacks allow to be used ("You can't use Super Stimpacks - you require at least 125 Medicine Skill). Barter is broken because trading is broken (OH HAI I HUV TWELF METAL ARMORS I SELL ALL AT FULL PRICE YOU WANT KTHXBYE). Repair should have provided the ability to craft stuff, and probably paired with Science under "TechWiz" - otherwise leave Repair and crafting alone, and tie Science in with Energy Weapons. Outdoorsman should have been a formula dependent on Perception, Sneaking, and Endurance. Small Guns should have really been divided into Pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, SMGs, etc. Melee, Unarmed and Throwing should have been a single skill. Get Traps to tag along another skill, maybe Repair, maybe Steal, maybe Lockpicks. Make it so you can only tag two skills, and to tag a third you pick a Trait that lowers all your stats by -1 or something like that (and of course remove the Tag! perk altogether).

RPG skills should make you go "Damn, I'm missing on some very good stuff" if you're not picking a certain lot rather than "Haha, those skills are obviously of no use and these are obviously overpowered - look I'm so smart I picked the overpowered ones!".

The sad thing about all I've said is that Ass Brotocols has some of the concepts I mentioned, but executed in the worst way possible.

 

[ShavenApe]

Sounds like a lot of whining to me. It also sounds like this person doesn't like making RPGs. Anyone who likes what they do for a living won't be complaining about it. And honestly if a game isn't fun to make it's not going to be fun to play. I'll pass on this one.

The difference between playing a game and making one, is the difference between riding a rollercoaster and building one.

No good game is truly fun to make. Yes, it is fun "at times", but the majority of the time is spent on difficult, and often mundane, work.

Things get easier once you have an established engine, though, like Vogel does.

This.

Making games is a lot of work. Some of it is very satisfying and interesting (especially when compared to an average corporate code monkey position), but it is still a lot of work and the majority of it is not interesting or satisfying. We can talk about designing gameplay mechanics & such on here, but the vast majority of the work has nothing to do with that.

If the claim: "if a game isn't fun to make it's not going to be fun to play" were true then there would be no fun games. Making games is nothing like playing games.

IMHO the only way indie games get produced at all is a lot of passion and an excellent work ethic. You really have to believe in what you are making. Obviously things are different in the bigger leagues that can afford to chew through employees in pursuit of the greater good (profit).

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Whenever I see a developer talking about the fun they had making the game, they usually make a point to also tell how exhausting it was. Like slaves singing to relieve some of their pain...

First Aid should have been paired with Doctor under "Medicine" as a skill that improved the amount of health stimpacks heal

Lol, FO3

 

[Jim Profit]

Well, a good rpg is several things at once. But objectively, and inorder to be described legally marketed as an rpg... should require dialogue options and alternate endings. (You don't need an alignment system, it's just fun)

True Crime Streets of L.A. slightly constitutes as an rpg do to this phenomona. Not enough roleplaying elements and too much sandboxing... but it suffices to earn the title of an rpg.

Fable doesn't. Fable's story is not directly effected by your dialogue choices, it's more like a Zelda simulation with Sims Family icons you can choose from to get laid or bitched at.


I really cannot believe after all these years, and being responsible for the creation of Dungeons&Dragons, the idea of an actual storybased roleplaying game is so alien to the industry...

 

[1eyedking]

First Aid should have been paired with Doctor under "Medicine" as a skill that improved the amount of health stimpacks heal

Lol, FO3

Well, yes, it's true . But the implementation sucked, let's admit it: they were incredibly plentiful and cheap, and pressing tab once and have the gameworld pause so you could use as many as you wanted was incredibly broken. Something like this was present in the previous Fallout games and it was a massive balance gap.

I always hated that, you know, inventory costing 4 AP to open and allowing you to do as much as you wanted, and all. They should have disabled the 'Use' function inside the inventory screen while at combat, forcing you to place the item in one of your hands and then using it. Probably this was due to Tim Cain being a lazy fatass who spent his spare time baking cookies (and eating them) rather than fixing the obvious flaws in the FO engine.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Well, yes, it's true . But the implementation sucked, let's admit it: they were incredibly plentiful and cheap

Yeah. They should've been rarer and more effective, to discourage spamming. And healing limbs should require more resources, like all the surgical items laying around (mods make use of them). The punishment for having broken limbs, which is already very light, can be instantly fixed with a simple basic healing item.

, and pressing tab once and have the gameworld pause so you could use as many as you wanted was incredibly broken. Something like this was present in the previous Fallout games and it was a massive balance gap.

I always hated that, you know, inventory costing 4 AP to open and allowing you to do as much as you wanted, and all. They should have disabled the 'Use' function inside the inventory screen while at combat, forcing you to place the item in one of your hands and then using it. Probably this was due to Tim Cain being a lazy fatass who spent his spare time baking cookies (and eating them) rather than fixing the obvious flaws in the FO engine.

Gets sadder when you see the npcs doing it properly, and you end up having to actively cripple yourself or feel like a huge cheater.

 

[1eyedking]

Yeah. They should've been rarer and more effective, to discourage spamming. And healing limbs should require more resources, like all the surgical items laying around (mods make use of them). The punishment for having broken limbs, which is already very light, can be instantly fixed with a simple basic healing item.

That would have been cool, but would have probably meant to haul a lot of junk around. Maybe a schematic that allows you to make a Doctor's Bag?

Whatever. Still I think that the worst part was the fact that you were practically invulnerable with the whole "Inventory -> Pause -> Heal, heal, heal" thing. Messing up in that game was a challenge, actually: you had to do it on purpose.

Gets sadder when you see the npcs doing it properly, and you end up having to actively cripple yourself or feel like a huge cheater.

Can you say Oblivion?

 

[Davaris]

Fucking bullshit. RPGs are difficult to design because they are the ones that demand the most amount of thought to be any good, and currently all known developers are either lazy or fucking stupid, or make stuff stupid on purpose.

Nah. If Indie teams could be assembled with specialists in every area: artists, rule designers, designers/dialogue writers, engine programmers and so on, you'd get quite good RPGs. The problem with Indie RPGs is programmers do almost everything themselves, because they don't have the cash to pay people with the right skills. So you get mediocre results in most areas.

The only way I can see small teams making good RPGs, is if every contributing member excels in more than one skill and that takes book learning, time and the determination to make game, after game and to keep learning and improving with each one.

The difference between playing a game and making one, is the difference between riding a rollercoaster and building one.

No good game is truly fun to make. Yes, it is fun "at times", but the majority of the time is spent on difficult, and often mundane, work.

.

The fun part of making games and engines is when you get something that was difficult to do, working the way it should. So yeah, its a different kind of fun.

Ah! All those guys who are spending thousands of their own dollars and sacrificing evenings and weekends for *years* making indie RPGs that probably won't even break even are doing it because they hate what they do.

Man, I obviously gotta find me a new hobby.

True artists are never appreciated in their time.

Mostly, this was a case of me trying to figure out how in the hell four hours went by testing and fixing a stupid - I hesitate to even call it a puzzle, we'll say "obstacle" -)

Jeff Vogel does an area a day, when he is making games. :shock:

So it could be, the answer is not to obsess trying to make "the best game evar". Perhaps it is better to create a plan and drop the things that don't fit into your allotted time frame?

 

[RampantCoyote]

True artists are never appreciated in their time

Where does that leave a hack like me?

Jeff Vogel does an area a day, when he is making games.

Wow. Okay. Maybe, if I didn't have a day-job, and had all the assets I'd need already available, I could pull something like that off with, say, the Neverwinter Nights tool set. But that's pretty impressive.

 

[Sceptic]

Where does that leave a hack like me?

On the Codex obviously. But worry not, we love you

Wow. Okay. Maybe, if I didn't have a day-job, and had all the assets I'd need already available, I could pull something like that off with, say, the Neverwinter Nights tool set. But that's pretty impressive.

By this point (what has it been, 8 years? more?) I guess Vogel is so familiar with the Geneforge engine that working directly with it is even faster than working with a toolset. He does have all the assets, I'm guessing he already had some idea of where each series was going relatively early on, so it's just a matter of filling in the details. Now I don't mean to trivialize that (filling in the details isn't an easy task, I'm sure) but it would explain how he can work so quickly once all the base is laid out.

 

[Davaris]

True artists are never appreciated in their time

Where does that leave a hack like me?

Wow. Okay. Maybe, if I didn't have a day-job, and had all the assets I'd need already available, I could pull something like that off with, say, the Neverwinter Nights tool set. But that's pretty impressive.

I read a description of his process a while back and if I remember correctly, he didn't put in a huge amount of hours per day. What he did do is tick to his timetable, no matter what.

So if you are doing 4 hours at night (which is a lot), you aren't far off what he was doing per day. Anyway have a look at his first game. You'll see that everything was pretty simple and he has made improvements with each game he put out.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

That would have been cool, but would have probably meant to haul a lot of junk around. Maybe a schematic that allows you to make a Doctor's Bag?

Not really, some mods use some of the surgical clutter as "ingredients", like medical braces, calipers, ,scalpels, etc., but since they don't weight much it doesn't really become a bother (I think there are doctor bags, too), it's actually kind of cool when you finally find medical equipment, instead of just walking past it because it's useless. Amusingly, the vanilla game only uses the medical bracers as a part for the deathclaw glove.

Can you say Oblivion?

I don't really remember if the healing was instantaneous...but applying poison to your weapons was.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

He probably manages to make an area a day because he gets 8 hours of sleep every day. It helps a lot with productivity.

Small Guns should have really been divided into Pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, SMGs, etc.

GURPS has guns skills divided like that. Other guns still default to the highest gun skill -2, though which is pretty sensible.