JE Sawyer on rolls and role-playing

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: J.E. Sawyer

<b>JE Sawyer</b>, one of the insane residents of the <a href=http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?act=idx>Obsidian</a> asylum, has made several posts in a <a href=http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=12829&hl=>9-page long discussion</a> dedicated to rolling and point-buying.
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We've had many cases in not so distant past where people who had successfully avoided the benefits of education claimed that dice rolling is <i>teh past</i>, and doesn't really belong in <i>teh futare</i>. So, let's have us a discussion.
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<blockquote>Almost everything that establishes character capability and progession in D&D is determined by a rule/formula. The only exceptions are a) some methods of generating ability scores and b) generating hit points. You don't roll to see how many skill points you get. You don't roll to see when you'll get another feat. You certainly don't roll to see how many XP it will take to get to the next level or how many spells a 4th level cleric can cast.
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<u>Rolling dice adds a random element of risk to performing any action. The player knows what his or her PC's skills are, the DM gives an indication of difficulty, and the player has to decide what to do. It's a gamble. This is what makes the decisions meaningful and important.</u>
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Bob the fighter is dying near the edge of a courtyard. Frank the bard only has 4 ranks in Hide and Move Silently. Can he sneak past the ogres to save Bob? If he blows it, he'll be caught, too. But if he doesn't get to Bob, in the next few rounds, Bob will probably die. Frank could have learned invisibility last level, but darn, he learned another spell instead. He could cast ventriloquism to distract the ogres, but then he won't be able to cast expeditious retreat if he needs to escape quickly. Frank's success or failure relies partially on die rolls, but his player and character choices have a lot more to do with it.
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Rolling for character attributes doesn't involve any element of choice or risk. You have a choice of where to place the stats after the fact, but it's not something you can opt to do or "gamble" on. The same goes for hit points. When you advance a level, you're going to roll hit points. Because of this, I don't think either should be rolled. Rolling for such long-term effects does not reward or penalize player skill or choice in any way, it simply rewards and penalizes dumb luck.</blockquote>Any thoughts?
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[Diogo Ribeiro]

Chicken wings are good.

 

[Spazmo]

I tend to agree. Point buy stats makes for much more balanced characters than rolling. When you roll, you end up with one guy who gets ridiculously good stats and another who gets crap. Point buy ensures everyone is on an even keel.

And rolling for hit points never really made so much sense to me because why would my character get a lot tougher at one level and not so much tougher at another? I always liked how Fallout did it, where you'd gain something like 2-5 HP at level up based on your endurance. I'd say choose a number from the current hit dies that's about 70-75% of the maximum value of the die and have that be the fixed HP increase rate (like 3 [on a d4] for wizards, 4 for rogues, 6 for clerics, 7 for fighters and 9 for barbarians).

 

[Kamaz]

That is why I dont like DnD - because of that damn rolling. DnD is too complex math for PnP, but for computer where it could fit better, its too simple and illogical.

Random effect should be beared in mind, when calculating outcomes, but in less proportions. Lets say 20-25% of damage taken is modified randomly, I mean, you can suffer damage between 12 and 15 HP depending on random factor. And, of course, critical hits as events, having low-probability, but in case of success, causing notable damage. I wouldnt like constant and predictable damage, sometimes its nice to guess - will I survive that blow or not - when planning strategy for fight.

 

[Whipporowill]

Random hit points when leveling up is just crap in crpgs, as many people will simply reload a bad roll. Some will even reload at anything but max.

 

[Volourn]

Bah. Hit points should be rolling. It's aprt of the luck of draw. Some people are just naturally healthier. Sure, training and excerise comes up to but that's where constitution comes in.

As for stat rolling vs. choosing; it's the same thing. Some people are just plainly born better. Period. This idea that everyone and everything has to be equal and balance almsot makes me puke. It would but I don't puke so meh.

Other than those two things, I pretty much agree with him.

 

[Whipporowill]

I believe there's a big problem with point buying, as it doesn't open for characters that actually are better than average in total. In real life it IS possible to both be smart and strong, and still not be really clumsy. That's the only part that keeps me opting for rolling stats in pnp games these days... otherwise I feel point buy opens for better and fairer system mechanics. A lot easier to balance for one thing.

Skillrolls should always be random though - I don't want anything of the "But I was hiding!" stuff that the X-box people apparently didn't understand about Morrowind.

 

[Spazmo]

Some people are just naturally healthier.

...as reflected by constitution, which affects your HP totals. It doesn't really make sense that two fighters who are identical in every way and go accomplish exactly the same quests and kill exactly the same monsters to gain exactly the same loot should be totally different because one of them rolled all ones and twos on his hit die while the second scored eights and nines.

As for stat rolling vs. choosing; it's the same thing. Some people are just plainly born better. Period. This idea that everyone and everything has to be equal and balance almsot makes me puke.

The D&D logic is that all adventurers are just superior to average people. That's why they have NPC classes--your average guard is going to be a warrior, not a fighter (warriors being fighters minus all the feats and I think maybe a smaller hitdie). Your local mystic is likely to be an adept, not a wizard. And so on and so forth. And the idea that game balance isn't required is just stupid. Why should my character be flat out more powerful than my buddy's? How is that fun? In real life, I guess some people might be superior (or just arrogant but whatever), but D&D is a game with rules and it needs to be fair.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I pretty much agree with him. I've played in games where because of 30 seconds of die rolling, some characters were demigods and others were gimps for the duration of the campaign. Yeah, it's realisitic, but it's not really that fun. People sometimes forget the purpose of a game is to have fun. If you want to have more powerful characters, you can always just raise the points for point buy.

 

[Kamaz]

Skillrolls? huh, I kinda disliked that in Fallout I could pick many locks just if I repeated for some time. I think skillrolls should be managed in levels, which, in their turn, are dependant on fixed/constant skill values. E.g., the lock is level 5, that means you have to have skill pisck-lock at least 5*q, where q is some multiplier corresponding to RPG system [lets say, 10, though it could be function, too], so you need skill at least 50 to even think about picking that lock. And then you can get your skillrolls - the higher skill you have, the most likely you will pick the lock from first time.

In case of hiding its more complicated and is dependable on game-engine. Hiding in iso-cRPG with tiles and hiding in 3D game are different things that influence the calculations. I would suggest combine FOV detection with skillcheck every time[with some fixed period] character gets in someones FOV. And of course, bear in mind obstacles than doesnt shadow FOV but just tweak it..maybe you can introduce FOV gradient..anyways, that all is much more different than in the case with pick-locks.

But, speaking of buy-points - you are superior as default. E.g., in case of Fallouts - you were the chosen one, they wouldnt send out some avarage guy out there, so, you are somehow special and therefor deserve excellence in some aspects. Arcanum was nice example of balanced character - you could not so easy boost up your skills in char-gen choice of race, gender and background kinda tweaked that all in-directly. Couldnt say I like this way, but it sure is alternative.

>>Whip...
Its just the question of proper point count. You could be smart, strong and agile at the same time in Fallouts. Score of 6 is good enough, its not bad, jus 10 is like genius and of course you wont be genius and say strong, agile, beatyful..look at Einstein.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Skillrolls? huh, I kinda disliked that in Fallout I could pick many locks just if I repeated for some time.

Except Fallout didn't allow you to do this without a penalty. A failed roll could simply make you fail the attempt, but it could jam the lock as well. Other games usually let you re-roll until you get it right without a problem.

 

[Volourn]

"It doesn't really make sense that two fighters who are identical in every way"

Hahaha. What a moron. No two fighters (like no two humans) are exactly identical. Don't be a goomba, goomba. What a lameo argument. Come back when you post sense.

Just admit it, you are one of those whiners who cry because someone else in the aprty has 2 more hit points than you. LOL

No one is equal. I say roll the dice, and deal with it.

 

[Avin]

i abandoned dice rolls for pont buy long time ago.

 

[Seven]

"It doesn't really make sense that two fighters who are identical in every way"

Hahaha. What a moron. No two fighters (like no two humans) are exactly identical. Don't be a goomba, goomba. What a lameo argument. Come back when you post sense.

Just admit it, you are one of those whiners who cry because someone else in the aprty has 2 more hit points than you. LOL

No one is equal. I say roll the dice, and deal with it.

Theoretically, in point in Dnd you can have two fighters who are exactly the same. Granted hp rolls put a certain amount of randomization in the whole deal, but at the end of the day it is wholly possible to get those two identical fighters, so quit talking smack V. On a related note, one of the things that I don't like about point buy in Dnd is that it takes a way the uniqueness of characters and what you end up with are cooky-cutter classses. In single player games point buy is great but in party based games some randomization is needed.

 

[Kamaz]

Is Volourn allways replying on simple arguments with hassle and trying to offend the other person? "HAHAAHAA, I am the DarkLord itself aahahahahaaa and you are moron because you think differently ahahahahaha" And whats about that whining thing in every post Volourn makes? It makes impression all others do nothing but whine and lie all the time about RPG. Volourn is the only one who loughs demonically above everybody else..

Volourn, if we talk about cRPG as a model, then you must have possibility to build totally identical characters with your RPG system. Otherwise it means system is not complete, its lacking some attributes and is not perfect. Character should be described only with stats, so you could say that two characters are equal if all of their stats are equal. ANd then there is only resolution question - how much stats you introduce to actually model the character. If you need pure random [actually pseudorandom] luck to describe character means your RPG system is too shallow and does not consider those features as arguments in its formulas. Which is maybe not bad, but it is not complete and perfect.

 

[Volourn]

"at the end of the day it is wholly possible to get those two identical fighters"

Really? So, these two fighters have the same hair, same colour eyes, same hieght, same weight, same eprsonality, same background? same parents? Same DNA exactly? WOWSERS!

I didn't know PC fighters were actually clones. :shock:

Sure, technically, you could purpsoefully make 2 fighters exactly the same statsically and with the same skills, feats, and the like; but quite frankly; that's quite boring which is why I support rolling for hit points and ability scores.


"Is Volourn allways replying on simple arguments with hassle and trying to offend the other person?"

Yes, espciially when its someone like Spazzy who has a habit of doing the same to others. All is fair.

 

[Spazmo]

Volourn, you dumbass, you're making even less sense. So let's say fighter 1 is blond and fighter 2 is a redhead... how does this affect their HP totals? There's no reason for this random number of HPs. And you still haven't explained why a lack of game balance is a good thing.

EDIT: And also, using different HP totals to set two otherwise identical characters apart is a bit ridiculous. Given that the HP rolls will tend to average out and two fighters will likely have samish HP totals, it doesn't really make for much of a difference anyways. Besides, what kind of a shoddy characterization is "somewhat weaker than his buddy"? Random HP rolls really don't serve any purpose at all.

 

[taks]

It doesn't really make sense that two fighters who are identical in every way and go accomplish exactly the same quests and kill exactly the same monsters to gain exactly the same loot should be totally different because one of them rolled all ones and twos on his hit die while the second scored eights and nines.

yeah, actually, it does make sense. everyone in here seems to agree that the original version of D&D didn't allow enough diversity. 2E characters were all carbon copies of one-another... yet here you are saying that ALL fighters with a 16 CON should have identical duration (hit points). volourn quite clearly expressed what constitution does; it increases your average. it makes you more durable on average, yet there is STILL some variability. otherwise, they're all the same and we go back to the same problems everybody gripes about in the first place.

oh, and btw, given that rolling dice is RANDOM (in the case of hit point rolls it is uniformly random across the given die), one guy isn't going to roll all 8s and 9s while the other guy rolls all 1s and 2s. well, it is possible, but not probable. on average, a d12 will yield 6.5 hps, a d10 yields 5.5, etc. after multiple levels of rolling, the spread starts to look gaussian with the average (mean) being #levels multiplied by average per level... you're trying to use an extremely unlikely situation to logically prove a generality. not a very consistent argument.

taks

 

[Spazmo]

Well... exactly. Like I said above, if it's all going to average out anyways, then the differences between two different fighters caused by HPs is negligible. And constitution still makes for variation: if my character is simply tougher than the next guy's, that means he has higher constitution. An RPG is an abstraction of a situation with mathematical models. There's shouldn't be any "oh, you just are" things. There ought to be a representation in game terms for just about everything (aside from certain character points like motivation or whatever--no need for stats to keep track of why you've got a vendetta against racial group X).

 

[Volourn]

Stop your crying you little weenie. Rolling for hit points does not imbalance the game. Period. It's just way to make it so the game is avried. And, like JE said, a large part of D&D is random rolling (more important stuff like RP is there too); but random rolling including for stats and hit points is a aprt of it. Or it should be unless crybabies whoa re jealous their friend's chaarcetr has 2 more hit points then them whine.

 

[Spazmo]

Try reading. Any variance created by hit points is irrelevant due to the laws of probability. And even if it did make a big difference, it's still a lame way to differentiate between characters. I don't like to have to repeat myself all the time like this. Please actually address the points being raised.

 

[Volourn]

I already did. Quite frankly, I did so quite clearly. You try to address with intelligence instead of foolishness.

A. No one is created equal. Random ability scores, and hit points are an illustration of this.

B. Random hit points has never been a problem for completely unbalancing the game no matter what the whiners say.


These two points, quite clearly illustrate, that rolling for these two things does not hurt the game. In fact they enhance it.

Only power gamers jealous of others hate random rolling. Period.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You try to address with intelligence instead of foolishness.

And that is not the path of the Volourn, silly rabbit.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

oh, and btw, given that rolling dice is RANDOM (in the case of hit point rolls it is uniformly random across the given die), one guy isn't going to roll all 8s and 9s while the other guy rolls all 1s and 2s. well, it is possible, but not probable. on average, a d12 will yield 6.5 hps, a d10 yields 5.5, etc. after multiple levels of rolling, the spread starts to look gaussian with the average (mean) being #levels multiplied by average per level... you're trying to use an extremely unlikely situation to logically prove a generality. not a very consistent argument.

I suggested this for ToEE, but I still like the idea of it, even for PnP. The hit points per level should be determined by taking the number of the dice normally rolled, subtract the number 4 from that hit dice number, and then add a d4 roll to it. So, a fighter would have 6 hit points guaranteed for a level up plus an additional 1-4 hit points and a sorcerer would get 2 hit points plus an additional 1-4. It allows a degree of randomness but still makes sure that the sorcerer doesn't get 5 hit points while the fighter gets 2 hit points on a level up.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I can see Volourn hasn't changed any.

Point buy all the way for me. I've used it in RPGs since the early 80's as part of a system my GM and I came up with for DnD. Made the game alot more fun too, IMO.