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Editorial Are RPGs too long?

VentilatorOfDoom

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Tags: Rampant Games

Jay "Rampant Coyote" Barnson ponders the question and even included a few suggestions.


Usually, it plays out like this: I start playing an RPG. I have a great time playing. I get invested in the storyline. And then, the early set-up stuff goes away and I’m playing through the mid-game. It’s slow. I’m still invested, but I’m doing a lot of make-work and grinding. I get lost figuring out what I’m doing next. I’m still playing, but it’s no longer compelling. I’m not feeling the urge to play every evening when I get home from work. Something happens and interrupts my ‘habit’ of playing. I play once or twice more, days later, trying to remember what I was doing next, and trying to pick up the thread of the story which hasn’t had much presence since the beginning of the game. And then I realize that it’s been months since I last played, and there are other games waiting to be played…

The real problem isn’t so much that the games are too long as a whole. But eventually any games (or stories of any other medium) will begin to drag in the middle. The beginning may be great, the ending may be fantastic, but at some point the middle will have simply gone on too long. This happens with RPGs more often than not, in my opinion.
...
#1 – Shorten the game. I do love myself some big ol’ meaty epics, so I don’t want all RPGs to do this, but just as all other media can be made or broken by the quality of the editing, so can games. We need RPGs that can be finished in a week or two (or maybe a single caffeine-fueled weekend).

#2 – Improve the game mechanics to keep things compelling through the end. Maybe the reward structure is too regular, or too irregular. Maybe the challenges are too repetitive, or require such similar decisions on the part of the player that they feel repetitive.

#3 – Punch up the narrative to fix the middle. Note that this may often mean changing the beginning or ending (which in game development can be pretty hard). Maybe it’s flowing at too even of a pace for too long. Things need to be changed up. A reversal needs to happen somewhere in there. Maybe a subplot just isn’t working very well and needs to be removed or changed. Whatever. The story needs fixing.

#4 – Do what Bethesda does and allow the player to go for the end-game at the time of his choosing.

#5 – Break into pieces, as multiple games, episodes, or expansions. Treat each of them as a stand-alone story that simply have a larger arc running between them.
 

Mozgoëbstvo

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#4 – Do what Bethesda does and allow the player to go for the end-game at the time of his choosing.

Whenever someone does this, he should at least have the fucking decency of NOT making every character say "quick! Hurry! You must immediately stop the impending doom!".
Because it's fucking annoying.
 

Angthoron

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If you make an RPG shorter, the barrel length won't be enough to absorb/compensate/direct the rocket properly, plus the exhaust might leave burns.
 

dibens

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Yes.

Most of the rpgs are packed with fetch quest filler shit anyway.
 

Corvinus

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If you make an RPG shorter, the barrel length won't be enough to absorb/compensate/direct the rocket properly, plus the exhaust might leave burns.

In the light of this, Jay the Rampant Furry sure is an 'interesting' individual, as shown below. The last quote is especially foul.

"I’m doing a lot of make-work and grinding. I get lost figuring out what I’m doing next."

"The beginning may be great, the ending may be fantastic, but at some point the middle will have simply gone on too long. This happens with RPGs more often than not, in my opinion."

"I do love myself some big ol’ meaty epics"

"We need RPGs that can be finished in a week or two (or maybe a single caffeine-fueled weekend)."

"A reversal needs to happen somewhere in there."

"Do what Bethesda does"

Aside from this, the attention span of people today is nothing short of miniscule. Too long? There is no such thing such as a 'too long' roleplaying game (dibens has a point though; "fetch quest filler shit" is shit)!

A good game can never be too long (but a bad one sure can), so NO.
 

Angthoron

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Aside from this, the attention span of people today is nothing short of miniscule. Too long? There is no such thing such as a 'too long' roleplaying game (dibens has a point though; "fetch quest filler shit" is shit)!

A good game can never be too long (but a bad one sure can), so NO.

Myeah. I did every single fetch quest that I could find (and that my stats could support) in Torment and Bloodlines, I was scouring every inch of a dungeon in Mordor, and it didn't matter that due to OMG REAL LIFE my first Torment playthrough lasted nearly 3 months and ended up incomplete at Carceri when I realized I fucked up and saved right after that fuck-up. OMG WAT, a full restart of a game that I played that long? Unthinkable!

Then I quit playing Skyrim in less than a week of playing, and I couldn't bother finishing the super-awesome Dragon Age Origins that's supposedly the modern standard and shit. Is it because they're too long? Fuck no, it's because they're tedious and unrewarding when played for an extended period. I don't know how some people manage 500 hours in Oblivion, there's no point for it.
 

Seboss

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I would say 'yes', but only because my attention span regarding games is indeed shorter. New games are released everyday and I tend to try out a lot of them and more often than not, I never go back to the game I started a week ago.
The latest example would be Legend of Grimrock. Great game, spent a dozen hours on it over a single weekend, stopped at level ... 9 I think, but now Endless Space is getting most of my gaming time and even though I want to finish Grimrock, I'm fairly sure I'll never start it again.
As you can see it's not specific to RPGs but games in general. So do I wish some games would be shorter? Well if that means I can finish it before some other game makes me lose interest and that I don't get bored half way through the game, I say yes if the price reflects that accordingly. But RPGs have to be long and complex enough for the player's choices to be of any consequence, to build attachement to characters etc, so I guess RPGs are just not for me anymore.

EDIT: of course, this does not apply to the $70 action/FPS garbage that makes 80% of the video game market.
 

Bruma Hobo

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RPGs should be as long as the player wants, and the "end game" shouldn't be the end goal. But usually, in most CRPGs without procedural content and strong gamerules, game's length means filler combat, fetch quests and uninspired storyfaggotry... Fuck that shit.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
In related questions, "Rampant Coyote" also asks:

Are RPGs too complex?
Has the writing in RPGs become too difficult to understand?
How can RPG combat be simplified to make the genre more accessible?
 

Trojan_generic

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
This kind of news should be retardoed. But I suppose it's a bit quiet on the news front.

Also: you do not want a good game to end anytime soon.
 

mondblut

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Why do you dig out articles written 20 years ago?

Oh wai-...

Welcome to 2012, where the pathetic 20-30 hours is "too long for an RPG".
 

sgc_meltdown

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Movies have too many frames, sir.

most of the ones I have ensconced here are in the ten-minute range and have a spare yet compelling, method-acted scene structure that can be enjoyed non-linearly and hold up to repeated examinations

very few quick cuts too, pretty old school if I do say so myself

please don't compare my harddrive to w40k's black library okay thanks
 

Angthoron

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Movies have too many frames, sir.

most of the ones I have ensconced here are in the ten-minute range and have a spare yet compelling, method-acted scene structure that can be enjoyed non-linearly and hold up to repeated examinations

very few quick cuts too, pretty old school if I do say so myself

Forsooth, and yet, one cannot help but feel that mainstream cinema is behind the times, pushing out films of forced length, and with too many frames per second. I do not wish to waste my life on a whole 24 of them as I barely remember any when I leave the theater, therefore, it is only logical that the number of frames should be further decreased for the sake of brevity.
 

sgc_meltdown

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therefore, it is only logical that the number of frames should be further decreased for the sake of brevity.

that would be technologically backwards as air-cooled projector rigs that can maintain a solid 23.976fps of filmplay are a deeply respected tradition
 

Angthoron

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therefore, it is only logical that the number of frames should be further decreased for the sake of brevity.

that would be technologically backwards as air-cooled projector rigs that can maintain a solid 23.976fps of filmplay are a deeply respected tradition
But the technology of the days of yore was poor - the newest technologies can convey so much more within fewer frames, decreasing production time and permitting producers to bring us more exciting quality films in shorter time, thus giving us more entertainment, and revitalizing the economy. You also have to keep in mind that the average movie-goer these days does not have as much time as the average movie goer in the 1930ies and would only appreciate it more if some frames were removed. It is time for the cinema as a medium to move forward and cast off the traditions that keep it from evolving.
 

Alex_Steel

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When RPGs suck, they seem that they never end, that they are too long. Just like doing a shitty job or being in a boring relationship.
When an RPG is good, you wish it won't end after 50 hours.

Solution: Make RPGs that don't have stupid stories and non-existent mechanics.
 

sgc_meltdown

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It is time for the cinema as a medium to move forward and cast off the traditions that keep it from evolving.

Like no simulated intimacy between CGI and actual actors, for example. Motion capture is very good these days.
 

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