Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

Chuck Norris

Augur
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
889
Location
Texas
A lot of RPGs don't have interesting world-building or characters, despite there's clearly an attempt to make it that way. Why? Because the people behind them are not well-read in fantasy, sci-fi, horror and mythological fiction. They have not fed their imagination the food it needed and so now, it's lacking. Their main influence are other RPGs, which in turn, are made by people with malnourished imagination. So there's a vicious cycle going on.

So many RPGs (especially the fantasy kind) are just trend-followers and copy whatever is popular atm (like Final Fantasy 16 being a GoT clone), because their makers are philistines and have not tasted what is eternal/classic. Just think of your average RPG: the most literary influence it has is probably D&D literature, which was made for tabletop role-playing. So it has a very artificial/formulaic structure to it.

What I want from my RPG developer is to be well-versed in speculative literature. And I don't mean the popular stuff, like LoTR and A Song of Ice and Fire, but the obscure stuff too. Like the Hugo awards winners, the cult-classics from 60s and 70s. I'm tired of RPG developers putting so much effort into world-building and then delivering something mid.

TL:DR: RPG needs heavy literary influences to flourish in terms of writing/world building. Only well-read people should be allowed to design RPG worlds. If you have not read at least 100 books from the canon of fantasy/sci-fi literature, you have no business even attempting to write RPGs or design their world.
 

adegron

Literate
Joined
Sep 22, 2023
Messages
13
I think cRPGs are just leaving the Forgotten Realms D&D setting with Divinity Original Sin and Pillars of Eternity, among other indies. These devs are starting to create their own IPs, so it's to be expected that it won't be perfect. Elder Scrolls started with their own IP a while ago and it developed to be something very well done, the games all connect to each other in some way since the beginning. Avowed will take place in the Pillars of Eternity universe. It's something that will start slow, I guess. You forgot to mention that the gaming industry also depend on Lovecraft's work heavily.

For the future, I think Elder Scrolls will remain as a cult classic. Alike those 20s and 30s movies that people watch.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,780
Could've just left the title as RPG developers not being well-read, period. Outside of twitter feeds and gaming "journalism" I guess.

Also I don't think a lot of RPG devs actually play games in their genre. We are still operating under a fallacy that RPGdevs are passionate toymakers, when outside of the smallest games, this isn't true at all.

Gamedevs are essentially people who got tricked into a soul-sucking corpo job, but paid way less than if they were working other industries.

The longer I stay in gamedev, the more I look down on anybody working for an AAA studio.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
14,811
A lot of RPGs don't have interesting world-building or characters, despite there's clearly an attempt to make it that way. Why? Because the people behind them are not well-read in fantasy, sci-fi, horror and mythological fiction. They have not fed their imagination the food it needed and so now, it's lacking. Their main influence are other RPGs, which in turn, are made by people with malnourished imagination. So there's a vicious cycle going on.

So many RPGs (especially the fantasy kind) are just trend-followers and copy whatever is popular atm (like Final Fantasy 16 being a GoT clone), because their makers are philistines and have not tasted what is eternal/classic. Just think of your average RPG: the most literary influence it has is probably D&D literature, which was made for tabletop role-playing. So it has a very artificial/formulaic structure to it.

What I want from my RPG developer is to be well-versed in speculative literature. And I don't mean the popular stuff, like LoTR and A Song of Ice and Fire, but the obscure stuff too. Like the Hugo awards winners, the cult-classics from 60s and 70s. I'm tired of RPG developers putting so much effort into world-building and then delivering something mid.

TL:DR: RPG needs heavy literary influences to flourish in terms of writing/world building. Only well-read people should be allowed to design RPG worlds. If you have not read at least 100 books from the canon of fantasy/sci-fi literature, you have no business even attempting to write RPGs or design their world.
Yep...
There is no more respect and admiration for the myths of old, the artistic achievements of different cultures who are now considered "backwards" or problematic...
Devs can now literally label walking around scenic vistas as an RPG and sell it to the masses...
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,354
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What I want from my RPG developer is to be well-versed in speculative literature. And I don't mean the popular stuff, like LoTR and A Song of Ice and Fire, but the obscure stuff too. Like the Hugo awards winners, the cult-classics from 60s and 70s.
You're not looking back far enough.

The cult classics of the 1920s-40s is where it's at. Weird fiction, before fantasy became a codified genre.
Robert E. Howard
H. P. Lovecraft
C. L. Moore
Clark Ashton Smith
Fritz Leiber

The real grandmasters of imaginative fantasy.

And even further back, Lord Dunsany, a must read for anyone who wants to write fantasy.
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,683
Location
Bjørgvin
I think Greek, Norse and even more exotic mythology is an even better foundation. And all the chivalric romance stuff; anything from King Arthur to Don Quixote.
But OTOH in today's political and cultural climate, these things would probably be things to be deconstructed and shat upon instead of being inspired by...
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
682
Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
 

Ismaul

Thought Criminal #3333
Patron
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
1,871,810
Location
On Patroll
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Their main influence are other RPGs, which in turn, are made by people with malnourished imagination. So there's a vicious cycle going on.
Yup, we're getting derivatives of derivatives of derivatives, such much there's nothing left of the original substance.

These writers likely don't understand myths have lasted so long because they're about universal truths of human nature and life. In fact, with everything being called a social construct these days, it's likely they don't believe such universal truths exist.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,354
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
Yes, current year mainstream literature is just as horrendously terrible as current year mainstream video games and current year mainstream film.

Complete trash, either read indie authors or books from 30+ years ago.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,006
Location
Frostfell
Only if you limit yourself to aaa games. Underrail, tainted grain : fall of avalon and ao on are still amazing. And the greatest problem of aaa games is the esg bs ideology. The good writers and programmers will be filtered and if not, the chief diversity officer making us$ 300k/y will butcher any of his good ideas.

Aaa self entitled rpgs will be gear farming cooldown managing games set in very buggy and unoptimized fantasy/sci fi versions of commiefornia.
 
Last edited:

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,422
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
Outside the staple of traditional fantasy literature, I was also inspired by Robert Payne's The Dream and the Tomb

211950.jpg



I've been fascinated by the medieval mindset at the time of the Crusades. Even a dramatization of history can be a great influence for fictional works.
 

Üstad

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
8,622
Location
Türkiye
Because there is hardly any demand for that. Forgotten realms and a few more D&D settings are essentially watered down version of Tolkien's work without any depth and spirit. I consider Elder Scrolls universe using Tolkiens work as template as well and they have more depth and spirit. The problem is with role play gamers they hardly ever want deoth or developers with knowledged with classics, they mainly want escapism and Elder scrolls, Forgotten realms and other D&D settings essentially provides that.

There are worse examples though like warhammer lore, I can't read it without my face getting hurt from cringe, the most caricaturistic garbage I've ever seen.
 

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
This is 100% true. Fantasy is broadly a dogshit genre filled with crap upon crap. With only minor exceptions like LOTR. 50s-80s sci-fi literature is where it's at. Which is also why more RPGs should be sci-fi instead of dogshit, uninspired fantasy.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,104
Because there is hardly any demand for that. Forgotten realms and a few more D&D settings are essentially watered down version of Tolkien's work without any depth and spirit. I consider Elder Scrolls universe using Tolkiens work as template as well and they have more depth and spirit. The problem is with role play gamers they hardly ever want deoth or developers with knowledged with classics, they mainly want escapism and Elder scrolls, Forgotten realms and other D&D settings essentially provides that.
Dragonlance was TSR's Tolkienesque setting for AD&D, designed around a series of 12 linked adventure modules forming an epic fantasy story in similar fashion to The Lord of the Rings trilogy, accompanied by a trilogy of novels, loosely following the adventure modules, that sold beyond the wildest dreams of anyone at TSR.

The Elder Scrolls setting, at least the human-populated provinces of Tamriel, is similar to D&D's Known World campaign setting (later renamed Mystara), in that it takes a pulp fantasy approach similar to Robert E. Howard's Hyboria setting for the Conan stories. Each country is inspired by real-world counterparts but freely adapted beyond the need for strict conformity, which allows for inspirations from different historical periods. Cyrodiil / Thyatis is based on the Roman Empire, Hammerfell / Ylaruam is based on the Islamic medieval Middle East, High Rock is based on Renaissance-era Britain/France, Skyrim / the Northern Reaches is based on Viking-era Scandinavia (the Known World has many more countries than Tamriel's four human provinces). Though this approach could be criticized for lacking originality, it reflects the diversity of the real world and permits for great depth, if that is so desired, since real culture and history can be drawn upon, or otherwise allows players to fill in the blanks from their own knowledge of history or pop culture.

Greyhawk was the more generic campaign setting, based on Gary Gygax's personal campaign setting, intended to be completely in line with the default, standard Advanced Dungeons & Dragons ruleset, rather more generic than Tolkienesque. After Gygax was ousted from TSR in October 1985, the management at TSR made the decision to shift focus towards campaign setting material, of which all that had been published were a brief "folio" in 1980 and a much larger World of Greyhawk box set in 1983. Although various snippets of information about the Dragonlance and Known World campaign settings appeared in their products, there hadn't been any products focused on the campaign setting prior to 1987, when a hardcover Dragonlance Adventures book was published and the long-running Gazzetteer series for the Known World setting began.

Since Gygax had initiated a lawsuit against TSR not only over ownership of the company but also over ownership of Greyhawk specifically, TSR had suspended publication of Greyhawk materials and decided it needed a replacement campaign setting, for which it turned to the Forgotten Realms setting of Ed Greenwood's personal campaign. Although TSR heavily sanitized its version of the Forgotten Realms relative to Greenwood's fetish-friendly original and also made attempts to have it be more realistic and historically-grounded than the original, the result was an extremely bland, generic campaign setting, which became the new default for AD&D and remained the standard even after TSR returned to regular publication of Greyhawk products in late-1988. TSR launched the Forgotten Realms with a box set in early 1987 and pumped out a vast quantity of campaign setting material, while intentionally overshadowing Dragonlance and Greyhawk, the latter of which was cancelled entirely in 1994, by which time the former was relegated almost entirely to TSR's much-expanded output of novels.

TSR also created campaign settings for its two attempts at creating alternate AD&D rules based on eastern Asia (Oriental Adventures in 1985, with the Kara-Tur box set released in 1988) and the Middle East (Al-Qadim began in 1992 with separate box sets for the rules and the campaign setting but was cancelled just two years later). In 1989, it launched the first in a series of unconventional campaign settings, quite distinct from the relatively conventional Greyhawk, Known World / Mystara, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms. Spelljammer was essentially AD&D in space but didn't sell as well as had been hoped and was cancelled in 1994 alongside Greyhawk. Ravenloft in 1990 was an attempt at implementing AD&D in the gothic horror genre rather than heroic fantasy and seemingly sold the best of the unconventional settings. Dark Sun in 1991 was post-apocalyptic fantasy, drawing inspiration from post-apocalyptic SF, incorporating the new psionics rules, and much darker in tone than any of settings except Ravenloft. Planescape in 1994 based itself on the existing AD&D planar cosmology, though with a new creation, the city of Sigil, prominently featuring as base for campaign operations. Birthright in 1995 had an underlying setting that was essentially in the pulp tradition of Hyboria and the Known World setting, but it rendered itself unconventional by shifting domain rulership from a higher-level endgame to the basis of play even for starting 1st-level characters, who were also granted a few special powers derived from their bloodlines.
 
Last edited:

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,412
Fuck off storyfags
What about Fucking Furry Storyfags? The story of how Swiper romanced Backpack and used THE MAP as his cum rag. Dora, be glad it was swiped and never found again. Be glad.

Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
This is 100% true. Fantasy is broadly a dogshit genre filled with crap upon crap. With only minor exceptions like LOTR. 50s-80s sci-fi literature is where it's at. Which is also why more RPGs should be sci-fi instead of dogshit, uninspired fantasy.
What about Mystery, Thrillers, History and biographies? Sometimes the past is damn good reading.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
697
Setting and storytelling for CRPG/JRPGs have the problem that you need gameplay, not just any gameplay but RPG style gameplay, so you need a variety of enemies to kill and lots of them, and a variety of combat options while progressing you character skills/equipment to become stronger, and usually the town > dungeon > town loop. That's why you don't see much games in non post apocalyptic modern setting, what would be the enemies in modern setting? you either make some goofy weird like the demons in SMT or the enemies in Earthbound or you just become a story focused game like Disco Elysium. Deus Ex and VTM did well but they needed the stealth/immersive sim elements to work, the combat part(enemies/equipment/spell/attacks) is limited in these games, even with the SCI FI/fantasy elements(robots, magic, vampires).

For the setting, fantasy works well, you just put any monster you want in the game, you don't need to explain much(what are they, where they came from) since it's fantasy, indeed most games don't explain it and just copy paste them from Middle Earth, yet it doesn't feel out of place(usually), killing lots of them don't feel out of place either. Magic add to the variety of combat options, equipment as well, easy to do, fire/ice/earth/air enchated armors/swords and ect.. and of course the town > dungeon > town loop is much easier to do in fantasy setting, easy to do in post apocalyptic games as well, you need the big wilderness/wasteland with small towns here and there to implement the T>D>T effectively, but there are other ways...

For the story, it's obvious why most RPGs are about killing the great evil guy/thing threatening the land/world. Just goes with the usual RPG gameplay loop perfectly.

Just think about any book you've read with interesting story and setting, either fantasy or not, now think about how to adapt it to a video game format, not just any game but RPG gameplay loop: so a variety of shit to kill, progression of skills/equipment, T > D > T loop.. and wihout making it feel out of place or goofy and without making those gameplay elements half assed. I guess with Point and Click or Visual Novel/Text format(like Choice of games) you could do it, and indeed these games usually have more interesting stories and setting than the average RPG.

And speaking of it, constantly being attacked by respawning bandits in Planescape Torment while exploring the crowded Hive felt out place to me, even if the Hive is supposed to be dangerous. The devs obviously did that so the game would feel less Visual Novel and more CRPG, but i think i killed like 100 of them, just weird.
 
Last edited:

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
Fuck off storyfags
What about Fucking Furry Storyfags? The story of how Swiper romanced Backpack and used THE MAP as his cum rag. Dora, be glad it was swiped and never found again. Be glad.

Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
This is 100% true. Fantasy is broadly a dogshit genre filled with crap upon crap. With only minor exceptions like LOTR. 50s-80s sci-fi literature is where it's at. Which is also why more RPGs should be sci-fi instead of dogshit, uninspired fantasy.
What about Mystery, Thrillers, History and biographies? Sometimes the past is damn good reading.
Oh yeah i mostly read history myself. I thought we were mostly talking about fiction tbh. There should certainly be more historical RPGs but they tend to be obnoxious to me since they rarely are *actually* historically accurate. The expeditions games were pretty OK in that sense at least.
 

Casual Hero

Prophet
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
489
Location
USA
Maybe I'm just lashing out because I'm a little younger than the average user here, but some of the comments here seem to be tilting a little too far towards, "Back in my day!"
I do agree that you should be well-read in order to really flourish, but there has certainly been good literature from the past 20 years.

I'm still waiting for an RPG set against the backdrop of Napoleonics.
 
Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Messages
2,276
I guess I should pack it in then. Its a bit of an ask to get a solo RPG developer/artist/gamer who is well read in fantasy as well.

I have read a bit however I don't really care for fantasy literature. Its just not readable to me. Whilst I love fantasy art, and fantasy landscapes and isometric game art however, fantasy literature is largely underwhelming.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong by way of book suggestions.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
682
Counterpoint is that Swen Vincke said he used to be a huge nerd of fantasy/sci fi literature, used to read everything and was highly inspired by the Dragonlance books. Yet people in Codex want to shit on Larian's writing.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,104
Many Hugo awards winners have writing that makes Divinity Original Sin 2 writing look like Shakespeare in comparison. I do not see how one can argue the fantasy/sci-fi industry as a whole has better writing then the video game RPG industry.
This is 100% true. Fantasy is broadly a dogshit genre filled with crap upon crap. With only minor exceptions like LOTR. 50s-80s sci-fi literature is where it's at. Which is also why more RPGs should be sci-fi instead of dogshit, uninspired fantasy.
High-quality fantasy writing:
  • H. Rider Haggard- King Solomon’s Mines, She
  • William Morris- The Well at the World’s End
  • W.H. Hodgson- The House on the Borderland, The Night Land, nautical horror stories
  • Lord Dunsany- Various stories
  • Abraham Merritt- The Moon Pool, The Ship of Ishtar, Dwellers in the Mirage, Creep Shadow Creep
  • Eric Rücker Eddison- The Worm Ouroboros
  • H.P. Lovecraft- Various stories (though primarily horror, secondarily SF)
  • Robert E. Howard- Conan the Cimmerian stories, Solomon Kane stories
  • Clark Ashton Smith- Various stories
  • J.R.R. Tolkien- The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings trilogy
  • Fritz Leiber- Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories
  • Mervyn Peake- Titus Groan, Gormenghast
  • Jack Vance- The Dying Earth stories and novels, Lyonesse trilogy
  • Poul Anderson- Three Hearts and Three Lions, The Broken Sword
  • Peter S. Beagle- A Fine and Private Place, The Last Unicorn
  • Michael Moorcock- Elric stories (1961-1977, in publication order)
  • Roger Zelazny- Lord of Light, original Amber novels, Dilvish the Damned stories
  • Gene Wolfe- Book of the New Sun (originally published as a tetralogy)
 

Be Kind Rewind

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
595
Location
Serbia
What I want from my RPG developer is to be well-versed in speculative literature. And I don't mean the popular stuff, like LoTR and A Song of Ice and Fire, but the obscure stuff too. Like the Hugo awards winners, the cult-classics from 60s and 70s.
You're not looking back far enough.

The cult classics of the 1920s-40s is where it's at.
Too recent.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
3,276
Counterpoint is that Swen Vincke said he used to be a huge nerd of fantasy/sci fi literature, used to read everything and was highly inspired by the Dragonlance books. Yet people in Codex want to shit on Larian's writing.
None of the divnity game that I played try making your believe that you lived in a coherent world, it would be closer to an absurdist setting in the vein of discoworld.

As of BG3, it's pretty obvious that they were some major disagreement over the story and writing, but I think the industry is too nepotistic and in lack of talent for Swen to really consider firing the seven cuck squad and hiring someone potentially even worse, and that's not even considering how obviously petty those people are.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom