Yes, as a matter of fact many games do indeed have that very light coating of RPG elements. Do you doubt it? Suppose instead of finding the completely fixed (statwise) guns that the character in Doom finds, he found guns with randomized stats that did randomized damage, and as the game progressed, the character became more likely to find more powerful randomized weapons. No other changes to gameplay at all. Didn't that game just take a step closer to having what you can accept as light RPG elements? Skills and equipment are two sides of the same coin, both ways to increase a character's capabilities. Goldbox games and many others had completely fixed weapon acquirement to make characters more powerful. Isn't that part of the RPG paradigm?Topher said:You'd be hard pressed to find any action/adventure games that don't increase the characters' capabilities through gameplay. Heck you might as well take the "gameplay" part out since quite frankly where else could it happen and let your definition be "any game that focuses on increasing characters' capabilities"... and that's just way too broad to be of any real use. Without something placing actual character skill above player skill I don't think the definition has any value.
Topher said:Without something placing actual character skill above player skill I don't think the definition has any value.
Shemar said:Topher said:Without something placing actual character skill above player skill I don't think the definition has any value.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but what you are actually saying makes no sense whatsoever. Only a complete bullshit game would place character skill above player skill. Any game worth a damn to me should be down right unplayable without player skill. And no, I don't mean action clickfests, I mean turn based games.
In general, I think any definition hinging on character development (as defined by level ups, stat increases, equipment upgrades etc, not in the RP sense) is fundamentally flawed. The game is not in the 30 seconds it takes me to level up, it is in the two hours I actually play it between level ups.
How many classic RPGs are you cutting off from the genre with a hard line like that? Noncombat skills weren't prevalent in the olden days, but so what? Let me give you an example. Suppose a game had a secret door that the player could see because it had a faint graphical difference to the rest of the terrain. The player sees it and investigates it instead of there being a skill check for the character to spot it. By your logic, a game could not do this and still be an RPG. And that's not even taking the player versus character schism to the extreme.Topher said:...and what do you do in those two hours. Talk to people (skills checks), combat (more skill checks), solve puzzles (again skills checks). If it isn't character skill determining when you hit or miss or when you fail to persuade somebody it's not an RPG.
Your focus on evading the lens of player skill leads to pure simulation. Do you want a game where an unskilled player performs the same as a skilled one? What else would you call such a game but a sim, if no sort of player skill is allowed to affect the outcome? (And maybe that's not necessarily even a game, let alone an RPG.)Topher said:RPG's are about character skill and on a meta-gaming level the player skill in building a character. Make no mistake I love action-RPG's like Gothic but Zelda can't even be called that because Link still has no skills as a character to check actions against. I love FPS-RPG's and any other genre you can mash RPG elements into, dear lord I love BloodBowl. I loved Dark Messiah, it's got skills, but it's still not an RPG because they're never checked to determine the success or failure of an action. I even love Forza and hell it's got stats for the player character (my car), I can upgrade those stats by upgrading my equipment, I can even power level and plow through sections of the game but none of those things directly affect my success on the track without first going through the lens of player skill.
Topher said:...and what do you do in those two hours. Talk to people (skills checks), combat (more skill checks), solve puzzles (again skills checks). If it isn't character skill determining when you hit or miss or when you fail to persuade somebody it's not an RPG. The game *is* in those two hours you're absolutely right but every second of those two hours needs to depend on the choices you make during those 30 seconds at the level up screen.
-Talk to people: Who you talk to, how and what you say is what matters. In some games a very small percentage of dialogue action is dependant on a skill check, but for the most part it is what the player does that matters.
-Combat: Only in the most crappy and pointless of games the result of a fight is dependant on skill checks and not player skill in tactics and use of skills/powers.
-Solve puzzles: Seriously? Your idea of solving a puzzle is a die roll? How utterly boring and pointless. My idea of solving a puzzle is solving it.
Topher said:How can you play a character and ignore character skill? It honestly sounds like you'd rather be playing action games or adventure titles. It's clear we like different types of games but while it is clear what I like it isn't clear what you like because you're entire argument is based on making worthless opposing statements against whatever I say. Either say something or shove off.
If simply building a character was enough to progres you in the game or win fights for you it would be utterly pointless to even play.
I am not saying ignore it, I am saying what I do as a player, my decisions, my tactics, my intellect, should matter more than the numbers on the character sheet.
1. Tactical combat. Combat where understanding of the combat system and use of decent tactics are essential to progress in the game. Fights should be won or lost primarily based on the tactics used, not character builds (within reason, see numerical example above). Characters should have stats and skills that affect their combat capabilities and performance, but how one uses them should be essential to victory, not just having them.
One last thing on character builds. Building a character should not be about whether you win the game or not; every reasonable build should be able to win a game (given a skilled player). It should be about how you want to play the game.
The game *is* in those two hours you're absolutely right but every second of those two hours needs to depend on the choices you make during those 30 seconds at the level up screen.
That is one of the stupidest things anyone has ever said here, and there is plenty of stupid to go around. I guess every strategy and tactical game ever created has no gameplay whatsoever, since the unit builds are fixed and therefore (based on your brilliant deductions) the tactics used are fixed? Could yopu possibly be any more wrong?...and those tactics would be determined by what, oh yeah, by your character build.
I couldn't care less because the story hasn't got jack shit to do with the game being an RPG or not...
And I couldn't care less about your obviously meaningless opinion on what constitutes and RPG and what does not. My definition of an RPG (which is the only one that counts for me) requires a story. You don't get to tell me what is an RPG and what isn't. You are nothing, just a random Internet moron.At the end of the day if you don't want the time you spend on the level up screen to have a significant impact on the way you play the game then fuck off because what you want to play isn't an RPG.
Topher said:Now it sounds like an RPG is any game where you ride around on a horse and kill things.
This makes me think of an action game on Xbox called Enclave. As you played the levels you found gold, there was fixed amount in each level and you couldn't grind for more. The gold was mostly found through exploration and for all intensive purposes was the games XP counter. Now, the only thing you could spend the gold on were new equipment upgrades for your character, with no skills or levels to increase. Is that an RPG?
It sure felt reminiscent of other RPG's in a way but it wasn't. My skill as a player not the skills of my character are what got me through the levels. Sure games like that and Zelda have an RPG vibe but they aren't RPG's. I'd say that Deus Ex has lite-RPG elements and so does System Shock 2 but there not RPG's. As far as Zelda or Enclave or any other action/hack-and-slash that I can think of they are simply not-RPG's because it's all about player skill.
Kaanyrvhok said:Topher said:Now it sounds like an RPG is any game where you ride around on a horse and kill things.
This makes me think of an action game on Xbox called Enclave. As you played the levels you found gold, there was fixed amount in each level and you couldn't grind for more. The gold was mostly found through exploration and for all intensive purposes was the games XP counter. Now, the only thing you could spend the gold on were new equipment upgrades for your character, with no skills or levels to increase. Is that an RPG?
It sure felt reminiscent of other RPG's in a way but it wasn't. My skill as a player not the skills of my character are what got me through the levels. Sure games like that and Zelda have an RPG vibe but they aren't RPG's. I'd say that Deus Ex has lite-RPG elements and so does System Shock 2 but there not RPG's. As far as Zelda or Enclave or any other action/hack-and-slash that I can think of they are simply not-RPG's because it's all about player skill.
Based on player!=user skill Enclave is not an RPG but Zelda most certainly is. Link's hearts, and weapons matter far more than your skill controlling him. The problem with the player/user skill comparison is any RPG worth playing is going to take some skill and know how. That's what the G in RPG is for.
Shemar said:Blah, blah,blah I think what I want even when my so called opinion fly in the face of the facts.
waywardOne said:stats are like genetics and just determine the range of possibilities, i.e. hardcoded character limitation/potential. this aspect is more important to a game like Diablo. the impact of stats in a character's influence in the world is best kept under the hood in a well-made RPG: you wouldn't want to be able to pick and choose which quests to undertake or which battles to fight based simply on a mathematical formula of success.
that's all. posting more for clarification than argumentation.
SacredPath said:An RPG is a simulation where you take on one or several characters in a fictional environment to ensure their survival and ultimate success, where success is defined as the culmination of a story driven chain of events.
come at me bro, I got Tigerblood.
Xor said:SacredPath said:An RPG is a simulation where you take on one or several characters in a fictional environment to ensure their survival and ultimate success, where success is defined as the culmination of a story driven chain of events.
come at me bro, I got Tigerblood.
Fails the Halo test.