agris just isn't into Bethesda-style RPGs like Fallout: New Vegas

[agris]

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

 

[jackofshadows]

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol

I think GrindedGrounded is the one though.

 

[Modron]

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

New Vegas came out five months after AP.

 

[Grunker]

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

That would be NV, since it is their best game

 

[agris]

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

That would be NV, since it is their best game

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

 

[Butter]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

You got 1 for 3. That's not too bad.

 

[agris]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

You got 1 for 3. That's not too bad.

which one?

 

[Roguey]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

Alpha Protocol has two out of three (and the way it handles equipment progression is awful )

 

[agris]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

Alpha Protocol has two out of three (and the way it handles equipment progression is awful )

there are more ways to do these things than bethesda-style

 

[Roguey]

there are more ways to do these things than bethesda-style

I don't see the difference between Fallout quest compass and AP's quest compass. They both involve a marker that tells you where to go.

AP's level scaling is worse than the one used in New Vegas https://steamcommunity.com/app/34010/discussions/0/540734792585910907/

 

[Butter]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

You got 1 for 3. That's not too bad.

which one?

I guess you need to define "skinner box crafting". How does that differ from non-skinner box crafting? If you're trying to compare NV crafting to that found in Skyrim or FO4, that's just disingenuous. It's a far less integral part of the gameplay in NV, and something you can easily ignore.

Level scaling is something the base game uses very sparingly (mostly for shopkeeper inventories). Again, it's absolutely not comparable to the typical Bethesda level scaling that you'd find in Skyrim or FO4. It's subtle enough that players could easily assume it's not even there. Only the DLCs use level scaling more overtly.

So to answer your question, you got the quest compass part correct.

 

[agris]

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

You got 1 for 3. That's not too bad.

which one?

I guess you need to define "skinner box crafting". How does that differ from non-skinner box crafting? If you're trying to compare NV crafting to that found in Skyrim or FO4, that's just disingenuous. It's a far less integral part of the gameplay in NV, and something you can easily ignore.

Level scaling is something the base game uses very sparingly (mostly for shopkeeper inventories). Again, it's absolutely not comparable to the typical Bethesda level scaling that you'd find in Skyrim or FO4. It's subtle enough that players could easily assume it's not even there. Only the DLCs use level scaling more overtly.

So to answer your question, you got the quest compass part correct.

1. you can google skinner box, so i'll skip explaining that part.

simply put, there is an order of magnitude too many containers littered through FNV's maps, and they are full of crap that is designed for players to compulsively interact with. the carrot for this gameplay-extending and OCD-feeding stick is a dumbass crafting system wherein said junk can be combined into many permutations. non-skinner box crafting is baldur's gate 2 style, or underrail style. in the former it is rare and the ingredients are purposefully placed, while the latter is well thought out and thus tightly integrated into character building and gameplay.

2. weapon damage scales with level, it's full blown retarded. you can always recast an argument as "well this isn't as bad or X or Y", but I don't owe obsidian excuses and said nothing of FO4 or Skyrim (neither of which I've played). the level scaling of damage in FNV weakens the impact of itemization, which was already total slop due to above crafting system and the replacement of handplaced loot with leveled item lists.

3. most of the game's quests are written in such a way that they depend on the quest compass. NPC dialogue, journal entries, and the worldbuilding as a whole do not support questing in FNV with the quest compass disabled. This is Bethesda style, and distinct from other implementations where the NPC dialogue, journal entries, and worldbuilding as a whole do support playing with the compass disabled. For all their faults, Witcher 3 and DEHR do this, among others

Roguey i'm not reading your links, make an argument or stop talking. you rely too much on other's words to avoid having to do the messy work of crafting an argument and defending it. dropping a link and declaring victory is not a discussion.

edit: another example of non-bethslop/non-skinner box crafting is Kenshi

 

[Roguey]

i'm not reading your links, make an argument or stop talking. you rely too much on other's words to avoid having to do the messy work of crafting an argument and defending it. dropping a link and declaring victory is not a discussion.

You will screw yourself over, the game actually gets HARDER to compensate for you having higher skills. This is especially true with the various minigames. Normally you come across an alarm or lock and you'll have a fair bit of time to disarm it. I edited the DefaultLevel.ini to boost my AP early thinking it would make the game easier. Nope, first alarm I come across has TWELVE nodes and 10 seconds to disable and enemies are taking 7-8 Critical Pistol headshots to kill. The game actually gets harder to compensate for your skills going up. It's the literally OPPOSITE of what leveling up is supposed to do!

New Vegas does not work this way. All computers and locks have a set level and enemies have minimum and maximum ranges.

 

[agris]

i'm not reading your links, make an argument or stop talking. you rely too much on other's words to avoid having to do the messy work of crafting an argument and defending it. dropping a link and declaring victory is not a discussion.

You will screw yourself over, the game actually gets HARDER to compensate for you having higher skills. This is especially true with the various minigames. Normally you come across an alarm or lock and you'll have a fair bit of time to disarm it. I edited the DefaultLevel.ini to boost my AP early thinking it would make the game easier. Nope, first alarm I come across has TWELVE nodes and 10 seconds to disable and enemies are taking 7-8 Critical Pistol headshots to kill. The game actually gets harder to compensate for your skills going up. It's the literally OPPOSITE of what leveling up is supposed to do!

New Vegas does not work this way. All computers and locks have a set level and enemies have minimum and maximum ranges.

you are responding to an argument no one is making

 

[Roguey]

you are responding to an argument no one is making

You talked about how you don't like New Vegas because of the level scaling but Alpha Protocol uses a much worse implementation of level scaling.

 

[Butter]

1. you can google skinner box, so i'll skip explaining that part.

simply put, there is an order of magnitude too many containers littered through FNV's maps, and they are full of crap that is designed for players to compulsively interact with. the carrot for this gameplay-extending and OCD-feeding stick is a dumbass crafting system wherein said junk can be combined into many permutations. non-skinner box crafting is baldur's gate 2 style, or underrail style. in the former it is rare and the ingredients are purposefully placed, while the latter is well thought out and thus tightly integrated into character building and gameplay.

A lot of the miscellaneous junk items in New Vegas have no crafting application. You either vendor them or you ignore them. They don't exist for you to "compulsively interact with" (sounds like a you problem tbh).

2. weapon damage scales with level, it's full blown retarded. you can always recast an argument as "well this isn't as bad or X or Y", but I don't owe obsidian excuses and said nothing of FO4 or Skyrim (neither of which I've played). the level scaling of damage in FNV weakens the impact of itemization, which was already total slop due to above crafting system and the replacement of handplaced loot with leveled item lists.

This is not correct. Weapon damage scales with your weapon skill, not your character level.

3. most of the game's quests are written in such a way that they depend on the quest compass. NPC dialogue, journal entries, and the worldbuilding as a whole do not support questing in FNV with the quest compass disabled. This is Bethesda style, and distinct from other implementations where the NPC dialogue, journal entries, and worldbuilding as a whole do support playing with the compass disabled. For all their faults, Witcher 3 and DEHR do this, among others

I already agreed with you that this is a valid criticism, although I'm not sure it's entirely true that "most of the game's quests... depend on the quest compass." I'm happy to walk this point back if I'm wrong, but I think exploration and critical thinking will get you where you need to be in most quests. For example in There Stands the Grass, you have to find the ghoul scientist in Vault 22. The quest marker will lead you to her, but you can also just explore the vault until you find her.

 

[Grunker]

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

That would be NV, since it is their best game

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

>saying this while heralding ap l o l

 

[agris]

1. you can google skinner box, so i'll skip explaining that part.

simply put, there is an order of magnitude too many containers littered through FNV's maps, and they are full of crap that is designed for players to compulsively interact with. the carrot for this gameplay-extending and OCD-feeding stick is a dumbass crafting system wherein said junk can be combined into many permutations. non-skinner box crafting is baldur's gate 2 style, or underrail style. in the former it is rare and the ingredients are purposefully placed, while the latter is well thought out and thus tightly integrated into character building and gameplay.

A lot of the miscellaneous junk items in New Vegas have no crafting application. You either vendor them or you ignore them. They don't exist for you to "compulsively interact with" (sounds like a you problem tbh).

and a lot do. the crafting and itemization system is abominable, and feeds the compulsive tendencies of gamers

2. weapon damage scales with level, it's full blown retarded. you can always recast an argument as "well this isn't as bad or X or Y", but I don't owe obsidian excuses and said nothing of FO4 or Skyrim (neither of which I've played). the level scaling of damage in FNV weakens the impact of itemization, which was already total slop due to above crafting system and the replacement of handplaced loot with leveled item lists.

This is not correct. Weapon damage scales with your weapon skill, not your character level.

a distinction without a difference. you cannot significantly increase your weapon skill level without increasing your character level. also note that I did not say character level.

3. most of the game's quests are written in such a way that they depend on the quest compass. NPC dialogue, journal entries, and the worldbuilding as a whole do not support questing in FNV with the quest compass disabled. This is Bethesda style, and distinct from other implementations where the NPC dialogue, journal entries, and worldbuilding as a whole do support playing with the compass disabled. For all their faults, Witcher 3 and DEHR do this, among others

I already agreed with you that this is a valid criticism, although I'm not sure it's entirely true that "most of the game's quests... depend on the quest compass." I'm happy to walk this point back if I'm wrong, but I think exploration and critical thinking will get you where you need to be in most quests. For example in There Stands the Grass, you have to find the ghoul scientist in Vault 22. The quest marker will lead you to her, but you can also just explore the vault until you find her.

the fact that a quest is memorable to you as being able to be completed without the use of the compass proves my point more so than disproves it

you are responding to an argument no one is making

You talked about how you don't like New Vegas because of the level scaling but Alpha Protocol uses a much worse implementation of level scaling.

i'm not making arguments about hacking minigames, or the type of scaling in your quote. i'm talking about FNV's level scaling and it's deficiencies, to which your quote does not speak.

i get it: a lot of you love FNV. i think it's re-heated gamebryo gruel with a nuFallout veneer and all the expectations of 2010-era obsidian wrapped up into what is ultimately just a derivative bethsidian experience. AP and Pentiment are superior to it, and Pentiment is barely a game.

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

That would be NV, since it is their best game

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

>saying this while heralding ap l o l

sorry man, we're not all into the stuff you are

 

[Butter]

a distinction without a difference. you cannot significantly increase your weapon skill level without increasing your character level. also note that I did not say character level.

OK I'm done with this disingenuous horseshit. You initiated this by using the term "level scaling". Ask 1000 people what that means and they'll say it's things in the world scaling to your character level. By your goalpost-shifting definition, every RPG uses level scaling. Fallout 1 uses level scaling because your weapon accuracy scales with your weapon skill.

 

[agris]

a distinction without a difference. you cannot significantly increase your weapon skill level without increasing your character level. also note that I did not say character level.

OK I'm done with this disingenuous horseshit. You initiated this by using the term "level scaling". Ask 1000 people what that means and they'll say it's things in the world scaling to your character level. By your goalpost-shifting definition, every RPG uses level scaling. Fallout 1 uses level scaling because your weapon accuracy scales with your weapon skill.

happy new year!

sorry you feel that way. i am not trying to "win" this discussion, but honestly present what i see are the major negatives of FNV, partially responsible for my "best since AP" statement. i tried to make it concise and clear that one of my objections was the way itemization and weapon damage scaled with level, in that particular bethesda-style way. it seems that you initially assumed a certain interpretation of level scaling, whereas i intended another. i do agree i could have originally said level scaling of weapon damage and itemization, which i did clarify shortly into our discussion.

 

[Roguey]

You know there's a mod for New Vegas that will let you remove the skill's effect on damage so you can play it the way you want (or you can just use the toolset to do this yourself) https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/68012?tab=description

 

[Grunker]

1. you can google skinner box, so i'll skip explaining that part.

simply put, there is an order of magnitude too many containers littered through FNV's maps, and they are full of crap that is designed for players to compulsively interact with. the carrot for this gameplay-extending and OCD-feeding stick is a dumbass crafting system wherein said junk can be combined into many permutations. non-skinner box crafting is baldur's gate 2 style, or underrail style. in the former it is rare and the ingredients are purposefully placed, while the latter is well thought out and thus tightly integrated into character building and gameplay.

A lot of the miscellaneous junk items in New Vegas have no crafting application. You either vendor them or you ignore them. They don't exist for you to "compulsively interact with" (sounds like a you problem tbh).

and a lot do. the crafting and itemization system is abominable, and feeds the compulsive tendencies of gamers

2. weapon damage scales with level, it's full blown retarded. you can always recast an argument as "well this isn't as bad or X or Y", but I don't owe obsidian excuses and said nothing of FO4 or Skyrim (neither of which I've played). the level scaling of damage in FNV weakens the impact of itemization, which was already total slop due to above crafting system and the replacement of handplaced loot with leveled item lists.

This is not correct. Weapon damage scales with your weapon skill, not your character level.

a distinction without a difference. you cannot significantly increase your weapon skill level without increasing your character level. also note that I did not say character level.

3. most of the game's quests are written in such a way that they depend on the quest compass. NPC dialogue, journal entries, and the worldbuilding as a whole do not support questing in FNV with the quest compass disabled. This is Bethesda style, and distinct from other implementations where the NPC dialogue, journal entries, and worldbuilding as a whole do support playing with the compass disabled. For all their faults, Witcher 3 and DEHR do this, among others

I already agreed with you that this is a valid criticism, although I'm not sure it's entirely true that "most of the game's quests... depend on the quest compass." I'm happy to walk this point back if I'm wrong, but I think exploration and critical thinking will get you where you need to be in most quests. For example in There Stands the Grass, you have to find the ghoul scientist in Vault 22. The quest marker will lead you to her, but you can also just explore the vault until you find her.

the fact that a quest is memorable to you as being able to be completed without the use of the compass proves my point more so than disproves it

you are responding to an argument no one is making

You talked about how you don't like New Vegas because of the level scaling but Alpha Protocol uses a much worse implementation of level scaling.

i'm not making arguments about hacking minigames, or the type of scaling in your quote. i'm talking about FNV's level scaling and it's deficiencies, to which your quote does not speak.

i get it: a lot of you love FNV. i think it's re-heated gamebryo gruel with a nuFallout veneer and all the expectations of 2010-era obsidian wrapped up into what is ultimately just a derivative bethsidian experience. AP and Pentiment are superior to it, and Pentiment is barely a game.

Oh yeah, forgot this game existed. Was it as bad as every other Obsidian game or just as bad as every other modern game?

its unironically their best game since alpha brotocol, only it's not (edit: really) a game

That would be NV, since it is their best game

sorry man, some of us just aren't into bethesda-style quest compass-led gameplay, level scaling, and skinner box crafting

>saying this while heralding ap l o l

sorry man, we're not all into the stuff you are

you understand that by defending a position with weak arguments you are weakening rather than strengthening that position

 

[Modron]

AP's level scaling is worse than the one used in New Vegas https://steamcommunity.com/app/34010/discussions/0/540734792585910907/

Stat scaling isn't the worst thing in action RPG as long as it isn't overly strong. Most players don't even realize Warband enemies stats scale to your level for example. That is until they cheat or play forever such that they hit level 63+ and their level overflows up to 65 thousand and suddenly the enemies can tank several hits and hit you hard.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

compulsively interact with.

Hahahahohohoho
It's a video game, the only compulsion is your own.

 

[Latelistener]

you are responding to an argument no one is making

You talked about how you don't like New Vegas because of the level scaling but Alpha Protocol uses a much worse implementation of level scaling.

You can complete that game almost fully in stealth with 0 kills. Not even sure if level scaling even exists and whether it does anything.