FreeKaner
Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
I think one of the factors is also the real history of the world. People generally look at prehistoric earth as a place of dinosaurs and lizards before they were wiped out.
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Ancient lizard civilization in RPGs?
- Thread starter fantadomat
- Start date
I think one of the factors is also the real history of the world. People generally look at prehistoric earth as a place of dinosaurs and lizards before they were wiped out.
fantadomat
Arcane
Was it in the original lore or did it came with this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Kingdoms
The details used now are fairly late stuff, but "The savage frontier" accessory has mentioned "the Days of Thunder when cruel lizard, amphibian, and avian peoples tamed the mighty dinosaurs, built towering cities of stone and glass on the shores of the warm seas and spanned the wilderness with shining roads" as early as 1988.
Morkar Left
Guest
Guys, Forgotten Realms, D&D or whatever had just adoptions from the original fantasy sources to pnp rpgs. And from there swept ofc over to crpgs. "Mystery" solved.
You can just name some games where lizard men occur and from there picking the oldest game. But it's kind of pointless for me because they are all inspired from the original sources anyway.
Lizard Men from Howard
You can just name some games where lizard men occur and from there picking the oldest game. But it's kind of pointless for me because they are all inspired from the original sources anyway.
Lizard Men from Howard
laclongquan
Arcane
It's easy to think of an lizard empire from antiquity. Dinosaur ages ensure that.
It's extremely hard to build a good framework for lizard civilization though, because we have no model to build upon.
The most basic foundation of a civilization is food production and how the hell are you going to think of that for lizards?
It's extremely hard to build a good framework for lizard civilization though, because we have no model to build upon.
The most basic foundation of a civilization is food production and how the hell are you going to think of that for lizards?
fantadomat
Arcane
Which was inspired by Lovecraft,thus not an original source. About the P&P games adopting shit from older books and ancient myths,i do agree.
fantadomat
Arcane
Ahh that is more of a modern view of people,but i do agree. It is easy to say "it makes sense" with our modern knowledge.
Morkar Left
Guest
Which was inspired by Lovecraft,thus not an original source. About the P&P games adopting shit from older books and ancient myths,i do agree.
Falksi
Arcane
Like most good things in the world, they of course came from Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday
fantadomat
Arcane
"Serpent Men" was written 8 years after "The nameless city",which was influenced by "the lost world" by Conan Doyle,written in 1912. The Cthulhu Mythos was compiled on a later date,1928.
Which was inspired by Lovecraft,thus not an original source. About the P&P games adopting shit from older books and ancient myths,i do agree.
Clockwork Knight
Arcane
I thought it was because reptiles look "alien" enough while still being from the same planet (an alternative being bug people), but the "creepy old serpent cults except the worshippers are literally serpents" aspect is probably right.
Morkar Left
Guest
"Serpent Men" was written 8 years after "The nameless city",which was influenced by "the lost world" by Conan Doyle,written in 1912. The Cthulhu Mythos was compiled on a later date,1928.
Which was inspired by Lovecraft,thus not an original source. About the P&P games adopting shit from older books and ancient myths,i do agree.
Neanderthal
Arcane
I think Lost World has got something to do with the propogation of the myth.
If I remember right Tolkien found a dinosaur bone down near white cliffs when he were a lad inspiring Smaug, still fairly common to stumble upon em there, guess they are in lots of other places an all.
Ophidians of Serpent Island stand out to me, though just influenced by reptiles and not Lizardmen. Do the Gargoyles count?
If I remember right Tolkien found a dinosaur bone down near white cliffs when he were a lad inspiring Smaug, still fairly common to stumble upon em there, guess they are in lots of other places an all.
Ophidians of Serpent Island stand out to me, though just influenced by reptiles and not Lizardmen. Do the Gargoyles count?
A lot of pseudo-science from the age posited the existence of non-human (or superhuman) lost civilisations hidden under the surface of the Earth, in the high mountains, or otherwise hidden from man's sight. Same pool of ideas Indiana Jones draws from - it was in the air. The Nameless City (1921) is one originator, but Abraham Merritt's Face in the Abyss (1923/1931) is closer to the modern idea of a lost lizardman civilisation, complete with a "lost Inca valley", primitive tribesmen, a benevolent snake-woman goddess, and a honest-to-goodness D&D-style megadungeon. Here is Merritt's description of a lizardman encounter:
The taint in the air grew stronger. The number of the cave mouths increased. The burro began to show nervousness, halting and sniffing.
The canyon made another of its abrupt turns. From beyond the angle that hid the way from Graydon there came an appalling outburst of hissings and gruntings. At the same time gusts of the musky stench smote his nostrils, nauseating him. The burro stood stock-still.
He heard the cries of men. He sprang forward; turned the comer. Just ahead of him were three Indians like the one who had led him to the frontier of the Forbidden Land, but in yellow instead of blue. Circling them, tearing at them with fangs and claws, were a score or more of creatures which at first glance he took for giant lizards. And at second, realized that they were, if not men, at least semi-human.
The things stood a little over four feet high. Their leathery skins were a dirty yellow. They balanced themselves upon squat, stocky legs whose feet were like paws, flat and taloned. Their arms were short and muscular. Their hands were pads, duplicates almost of their feet, but with longer claws.
It was their faces that chilled Graydon's blood. There was no mistaking the human element in them. They were man and lizard inextricably, inexplicably, mingled—as man and spider had been mingled in the scarlet thing Suarra had named the Weaver.
Beyond their narrow, pointed foreheads their heads were covered with scarlet scales which stood upright like multiple cockscombs. Their eyes were red, round and unwinking. Their noses were flat, but under them their jaws extended in a broad six-inch snout armed with yellow fangs, strong and cruel as a crocodile's. They had no chins, and only rudiments of ears.
What sickened him most was that around their loins were filthy strips of cloth.
The three Indians stood back to back in a triangle, battering at the lizard-men with maul-headed clubs of some shining metal. That they had given good account of themselves a half dozen of the creatures, heads crushed in, gave proof. But now in rapid succession first one Indian and then a second was pulled to the ground and hidden by the loathsome bodies.
Graydon threw off his paralysis and shouted to the remaining Indian.
He raised his rifle, took rapid aim, and fired. The lizard-man he had picked out staggered under the impact of the bullet, then dropped. At the report, echoing like a miniature peal of thunder from the rocky walls, the pack turned as one toward him, fanged mouths open and staring, bodies crouched, glaring at him with the unwinking red eyes.
The Indian stooped, lifted the body of one of his comrades, and sprang clear. Freed from fear of hitting him, Graydon emptied his rifle into the creatures. He rapidly reloaded his magazine. Then, as he began dropping them, they broke from their stupor, leaped for the walls, and like true lizards swarmed up the sheer faces of the cliffs. Hissing and screeching, they darted into the black mouths of the caves. They vanished into their dark depths.
The canyon made another of its abrupt turns. From beyond the angle that hid the way from Graydon there came an appalling outburst of hissings and gruntings. At the same time gusts of the musky stench smote his nostrils, nauseating him. The burro stood stock-still.
He heard the cries of men. He sprang forward; turned the comer. Just ahead of him were three Indians like the one who had led him to the frontier of the Forbidden Land, but in yellow instead of blue. Circling them, tearing at them with fangs and claws, were a score or more of creatures which at first glance he took for giant lizards. And at second, realized that they were, if not men, at least semi-human.
The things stood a little over four feet high. Their leathery skins were a dirty yellow. They balanced themselves upon squat, stocky legs whose feet were like paws, flat and taloned. Their arms were short and muscular. Their hands were pads, duplicates almost of their feet, but with longer claws.
It was their faces that chilled Graydon's blood. There was no mistaking the human element in them. They were man and lizard inextricably, inexplicably, mingled—as man and spider had been mingled in the scarlet thing Suarra had named the Weaver.
Beyond their narrow, pointed foreheads their heads were covered with scarlet scales which stood upright like multiple cockscombs. Their eyes were red, round and unwinking. Their noses were flat, but under them their jaws extended in a broad six-inch snout armed with yellow fangs, strong and cruel as a crocodile's. They had no chins, and only rudiments of ears.
What sickened him most was that around their loins were filthy strips of cloth.
The three Indians stood back to back in a triangle, battering at the lizard-men with maul-headed clubs of some shining metal. That they had given good account of themselves a half dozen of the creatures, heads crushed in, gave proof. But now in rapid succession first one Indian and then a second was pulled to the ground and hidden by the loathsome bodies.
Graydon threw off his paralysis and shouted to the remaining Indian.
He raised his rifle, took rapid aim, and fired. The lizard-man he had picked out staggered under the impact of the bullet, then dropped. At the report, echoing like a miniature peal of thunder from the rocky walls, the pack turned as one toward him, fanged mouths open and staring, bodies crouched, glaring at him with the unwinking red eyes.
The Indian stooped, lifted the body of one of his comrades, and sprang clear. Freed from fear of hitting him, Graydon emptied his rifle into the creatures. He rapidly reloaded his magazine. Then, as he began dropping them, they broke from their stupor, leaped for the walls, and like true lizards swarmed up the sheer faces of the cliffs. Hissing and screeching, they darted into the black mouths of the caves. They vanished into their dark depths.
However, Merritt is in many ways "the" lost world writer, because almost all of his novels follow a similar plot about white explorers finding a secret entrance to hidden realms, and saving them from a supernatural evil menace. His books also feature intelligent non-human races prominently, which earlier lost world authors usually didn't. His best is The Dwellers in the Mirage, but The Face in the Abyss, The Moon Pool, and The Ship of Ishtar are all good. You'll also see what kind of material D&D was based on - Gary Gygax loved Merritt's books, and featured them prominently on his "Inspirational reading" list. Like Leiber's Lankhmar stories, they represent the intended tone of traditional AD&D much better than 80s-style epic high fantasy trilogies. Their prose is fairly florid (Merritt loved his otherworldly colours), but they are all page-turners, and relatively thin.
For my money, the best sssserpent-man novel is Leigh Brackett's The Sword of Rhiannon (a.k.a. Sea-Kings of Mars, 1949), which features a weird high-tech serpent-man civilisation lording over a planet of bronze age humans. That one's from later, but it would be a crime to miss, because it is real good.
CyberWhale
Arcane
I liked the Vrans from the Witcher. Lizardmen meet Romans (or Greeks, whatever).
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hexer
Guest
what do you mean "fiction"?
Cosmo
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,387
There's indeed a pattern, and several well-known games do use it. Two examples that come to mind is NWN OC and the first Drakensang...
In other words, two meh-goodish RPGs brought down by an utterly mediocre and by the numbers "save the world" plot. And why wouldn't it be that way ? A race of villains from a previous era is the epitome of laziness in world, character and plot-building : instead of emanating from the game universe, they function as a trump card, removed from all the things that make said universe living, breathing and interesting.
As for the reptilian aspect, the "wiped-out by a cataclysm primeval race" is evidently equivalent to reality's dinosaurs and thus is a very obvious (and lazy) turn of thought...
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CyberWhale
Arcane
hexer
Guest
Don't believe Cosmo's lies, he's one of them!
fantadomat
Arcane
Drakensang is great and fun rpg! It is a shame that they don't make it any more.
Cosmo
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,387
Yeah the second one demonstrated they were on a truly ascending trajectory...
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