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Anime Another Gamasutra Article! "We Don’t Need the Haters"

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
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Messages
23,731
The Designer’s Notebook: We Don’t Need the Haters (and I Can Prove It)

Oh, please do.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Erne...e_Dont_Need_the_Haters_and_I_Can_Prove_It.php

The haters are simply infuriated at the suggestion that games might be improved by making them more appealing to women, and they’re warning us that they’ll do something about it. Apart from the abuse and threats, they say that they’ll stop buying games if the industry changes anything to makethem more popular with women, and we’ll lose a lot of money. I decided to find out if we need to take this seriously, not just by arguing hypothetically, but by looking at some real numbers.

I believe they are infuriated at the shit quality games, but please, go on.

What Changes Are We Talking About?
So who is asking for a change, and what exactly are they asking for? I’m going to call them “progressive gamers,” for want of a better term; they’re both men and women. With respect to gender in games (the treatment of racial minorities or under-represented sexualities is a separate, but related issue), their requests are simple and few:



  1. More opportunities to play female protagonists in AAA titles.

  2. More female characters—especially protagonists—who are not hypersexualized and whose clothing is appropriate for their activity.

  3. More female characters portrayed as strong and competent people rather than victims, trophies, or sex objects.
Now let’s take a look at what they’re not asking for.



  1. They’renot proposing to turn Duke Nukem female.

  2. They’re not proposing to ban or censor Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball.

  3. They’re not proposing to kill off Princess Peach. (Well, most of them aren’t. There might be a radical wing that is.)

  4. They’re not proposing that games should suddenly all be about traditional female role activities such as cooking and sewing. It shouldn’t even be necessary to say this, but there are a few dimwits around who seem to believe it.

That's quite the interesting list. But guess what the list doesn't have:

- Less shit DLC like day-one nearly plot essential shit.
- Less shit casual games with little substance.
- Less F2P and pay-to-win crap.
- Not having to be on-line to play said single player game.

You know, the stuff we care about.

Graphs

All_Years_Raw.png



All_Years_Revised.png


2012_Revised.png

Your graphs are shit, but on a glance it sounds like the under-representation of females is not as large as I thought it would be. Interestingly enough it's been going DOWN recently ( :lol: ?)

It looks like most games are gender neutral. Isn't that what you guys and gals really want?



Aren’t the Gender-Neutral Games Enough?
The reactionaries will also undoubtedly argue that there are lots of games that are gender-neutral, and women can just play those. (This is that 90% group that I hypothesized.) There are plenty of RPGs in which you create your own character, male or female; isn’t that enough? Or Bejeweled. No protagonist at all in puzzle games, so no problem, right?

No, and here’s why. Interactive storytelling is hard enough to do well when the player can influence the plot (which is why many games still tell linear stories), but it’s extremely hard to do well when the designer knows nothing about the protagonist, including its sex. This is why adventure games, in which story is paramount, almost always have a predefined protagonist. The stories in games with a predefined protagonist (such as the Silent Hill series) are generally better than those in games with generic avatar. Telling female players that they have to be content with gender-neutral games consigns them to a second-class status in which they don’t get the best stories.

So what about games that have female characters? If I'm not content with those, I'm suddenly second class?


The Arguments Against Doing Anything
The next question is whether we should do anything about the problem. If you visit YouTube or the gamer message boards frequented by reactionary players, you encounter, again and again, the same set of arguments for not building any new games that the progressive players might like. I’ll summarize them here:



  • Dismissive: They’re only games; they’re not important, so it doesn’t matter if there aren’t many women or their portrayal of women is unrealistic.

  • Male chauvinist: Feminazis are pushing their way into the game industry with their political correctness, and they’re going to ruin games and (male) gaming culture.

  • Ignorant: Asking for female protagonists in games is a violation of game designers’ freedom of speech.

  • Misogynist: “Wherever there are happy men there will always be a woman there to ruin it.” That’s about the mildest quote I could find.

  • Financial: Male players don’t like to play female characters, and they like to see the women in games eroticized. The game industry will lose a lot of money if it stops catering to those men.
We can write off the first four arguments pretty quickly:



  • Dismissive: If the content of games doesn’t matter, why are you objecting to some new ones?

  • Male chauvinist: This is identical to the argument that people used to use to keep Jews out of the country club, and it deserves the same response. If gaming culture will be “ruined” by making it a little less hostile to female players, then what you value in gaming culture—bigotryand exclusion—is not worth preserving. Let the ruination commence.

  • Ignorant: Asking for female protagonists in games is an exercise of freedom of speech. Consumer activism is not censorship.

  • Misogynist: Please join a monastery where you can lead a completely happy, woman-free life.
That leaves us with the financial argument, which is the only one that deserves serious attention.Let’s assume for a moment that the game industry is ruled entirely by money, and that profits are oursole consideration. Does the game industry stand to lose a lot of money by alienating men who don’t want games to have strong female protagonists?

Here are my counter arguments:

Dismissive: Because the content of the game does matter. The problem is you are focusing far too much energy on the wrong stuff.

Male chauvinist: Except the country club for men is about 1/10 the size of the country club for everyone. You're complaining that an exclusive club is too exclusive while you have a perfectly large and varied non-exclusive club.

Ignorant: Right back at you. Those numbers are a direct result of Consumer activism. Forcing your beliefs onto me is a restriction of my freedom.

Misogynist: Excellent strawman you fucktard. No one said that. What we don't like playing are games aimed at a female audience because, surprise surprise, men and women tend to have different tastes in regards to games. We blame feminist women AND men because you morons are making the industry worse with shit like ME3 and DA2.

Financial: The market is the way it is because it is free. Meddle with it and bad stuff will happen.


“Male Players Won’t Play as Female Characters”


Oh look, another strawman.


but David Gaider developed this point at length in his brilliant 2013 GDC talk “Sex In Video Games,” which you can see here. Well-made games sell well regardless, as the better Tomb Raiders have shown.

:lol: and now I understand why your article is shit: you're a moronic PR white knight of fucktary.

I'll never understand why feminists use so much double-speak. If the goal is equality it looks like we are already there or very close to it. Sure, there exists a % of games with more male leads instead of female leads, but the vast majority of games are gender friendly (ironically, some of the best games let you CHOOSE your gender). You can't force markets to subscribe to your ideology: such a idea is just Communism.

Anyways I thought you guys might be interested in this article. I thought about responding to this guy via e-mail or something, but probably a waste of time.
 
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sea

inXile Entertainment
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5,698
The Codex tends to get hung up about games being shitty. In truth, most gaming forums out there are actually pretty satisfied with games and there's a lot more negative reaction towards female characters in games and women in the games industry. On this forum you tend to get a distorted view of what the gamers as a whole thinks of the games industry. For a lot of people here it comes down to games not being very good, but for most people beyond the Codex it's not that simple.

Furthermore I think it's fair to say that "who cares about women, your games suck" is also kind of a chauvinistic and dismissive attitude which is in itself a strawman for the real issue of poor representation of women overall. Whether or not Dragon Age 2 sucks or not has little to do with whether women worked on it, so why even bring that up? Unless your implication is that women somehow inherently suck at game design/storytelling/writing/etc., of course.
 
Repressed Homosexual
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Messages
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Ottawa, Can.
Gamasutra used to be a readable site, but this is completely indistinguishable from obnoxious, bottom of the barrell Kotaku click-bait. Nice to see the writer insulting the readers at multiple points and being such a bleeding heart, that's some great journalistic standards. I don't understand why sea keeps associating with it.

Anyway, at the end of the day you know that the games that matter are made by people who are smart enough to ignore any of this nonsense.

And although the article is not worth commenting on, the reality is that it is young men who invest substantial money in games, buying multiple new releases, and making this business viable, not women. For this simple economic imperative, this business is always going to ultimately cater to what they want.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
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Messages
23,731
The Codex tends to get hung up about games being shitty. In truth, most gaming forums out there are actually pretty satisfied with games and there's a lot more negative reaction towards female characters in games and women in the games industry. On this forum you tend to get a distorted view of what the gamers as a whole thinks of the games industry. For a lot of people here it comes down to games not being very good, but for most people beyond the Codex it's not that simple.

Reactions to ME3, SimCity 5, and DA2 seem to suggest otherwise. Per news articles and not other forums.


Furthermore I think it's fair to say that "who cares about women, your games suck" is also kind of a chauvinistic and dismissive attitude which is in itself a strawman for the real issue of poor representation of women overall. Whether or not Dragon Age 2 sucks or not has little to do with whether women worked on it, so why even bring that up?

So unless I'm hung up on the fact that their is a lack of females, complaining about the game being bad makes me CHAUVINISTIC?

sup Roguey.
 

Haba

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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Furthermore I think it's fair to say that "who cares about women, your games suck" is also kind of a chauvinistic and dismissive attitude which is in itself a strawman for the real issue of poor representation of women overall. Whether or not Dragon Age 2 sucks or not has little to do with whether women worked on it, so why even bring that up? Unless your implication is that women somehow inherently suck at game design/storytelling/writing/etc., of course.

Unless the game in question is worse because it was made with female audience in mind, hmmm?
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Messages
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The 'calculation' of those statistics sounds like made up bullshit.

So the people complaining about this actually like popamole games, but simply want female characters in them? That doesn't really seem like a step forward.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
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Messages
23,731
Estimated

So no data, just a random number?

Sorta ironic that even the "random number" doesn't fit the author's world view. There are less female leads, but that's likely a result of more male gamers. Honestly, listening to the feminist would make one think that the blue in the chart was the % of "male leads" and the yellow being gender neutral.

Compare with romance novels where most of the leads are female, yet you don't see any men complaining about the men always being hunky dudes.
 

Zdzisiu

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Messages
3,499
I dont really care if the protagonist is male, female or somewhere inbetween, if the game is good I will play it and enjoy it anyway.

Sure I would like a more interesting female characters, in the sense that they are more like real women and less like walking tits with no personality but that is because I dont like poorly developed characters full of ridiculous stereotypes no matter their gender.

But please, dont introduce a -10 debuff once a month for female protagonist to show us the horrors of PMS or something.
 

Tehdagah

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Feb 27, 2012
Messages
9,324
"They’re not proposing to ban or censor Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball."

Yes they are.
 

corvus

Arcane
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Jul 23, 2011
Messages
5,513
How do you underreport video game characters? They're not even real.

the real issue of poor representation of women overall.

Why is it an issue? Have video games ever suffered for lack of gender-inclusiveness? As actual games I mean, not as vehicles for cinematic storytelling masturbation.
 

visions

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Retarded social justice gaming journous campaigning for changes in AAA HARDCORE GAYMER CULTURE, now this is truly a fight worth picking sides in.

They can campaign for the inclusion of furry transgender cowmen (with faithfully modelled udders AND ballsacks!) in the next Call of Duty XXXTREME/ Dragon Age VI for all I care. More the butthurt on either side, the merrier.
 
Last edited:

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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I actually prefer playing female characters (in games with free char creation I always make a female char), but I don't really care about all of this bullshit. If the game is good, it's good no matter the gender of the protagonist. If the game sucks, it sucks no matter the gender of the protagonist.

People who complain about shit like this don't really care about the games, they care about retarded social issues or some crap like that. People who actually like games, be they men or women, care about actually having games that are fun to play.
 

octavius

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The number of video game protagonists shoud be about the same as the number of video game developers.
 

tuluse

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I don't get it, what's bad about wanting more female protagonists in video games?
 

Dr Tomo

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The Designer’s Notebook: We Don’t Need the Haters (and I Can Prove It)

Oh, please do.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Erne...e_Dont_Need_the_Haters_and_I_Can_Prove_It.php

The haters are simply infuriated at the suggestion that games might be improved by making them more appealing to women, and they’re warning us that they’ll do something about it. Apart from the abuse and threats, they say that they’ll stop buying games if the industry changes anything to makethem more popular with women, and we’ll lose a lot of money. I decided to find out if we need to take this seriously, not just by arguing hypothetically, but by looking at some real numbers.

I believe they are infuriated at the shit quality games, but please, go on.


I find this disagreeable because quality of games is highly subjective and surprisingly the consumers in general has low standards even on the codex. This position looks at things like it is black and white just like the author as there is evidence that people does give a big shit (pardon) of females in games. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be so much attention to Anita Sarkeesian and people being schmucks giving her what she wants, publicity and money from other schmucks.

What Changes Are We Talking About?
So who is asking for a change, and what exactly are they asking for? I’m going to call them “progressive gamers,” for want of a better term; they’re both men and women. With respect to gender in games (the treatment of racial minorities or under-represented sexualities is a separate, but related issue), their requests are simple and few:



  1. More opportunities to play female protagonists in AAA titles.

  2. More female characters—especially protagonists—who are not hypersexualized and whose clothing is appropriate for their activity.

  3. More female characters portrayed as strong and competent people rather than victims, trophies, or sex objects.
Now let’s take a look at what they’re not asking for.



  1. They’renot proposing to turn Duke Nukem female.

  2. They’re not proposing to ban or censor Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball.

  3. They’re not proposing to kill off Princess Peach. (Well, most of them aren’t. There might be a radical wing that is.)

  4. They’re not proposing that games should suddenly all be about traditional female role activities such as cooking and sewing. It shouldn’t even be necessary to say this, but there are a few dimwits around who seem to believe it.

That's quite the interesting list. But guess what the list doesn't have:

- Less shit DLC like day-one nearly plot essential shit.
- Less shit casual games with little substance.
- Less F2P and pay-to-win crap.
- Not having to be on-line to play said single player game.

You know, the stuff we care about.

Again everything you list is crap since if this isn't what the majority wants then why is money being given to these companies? (I actually agree with you and I think I am the only one on the codex is whose extreme in being against what you listed and get butt hurt over it). But the fact is people pay for this crap still and even people on the codex as I always see jerk off threads over studios that does this shit (pardon).

It looks like most games are gender neutral. Isn't that what you guys and gals really want?

It would be no different then people wanting tacked on single player for games like BF3 or tacked on multiplayer like Spec Ops as people obviously want one or the other that is half ass'ed, right?

Aren’t the Gender-Neutral Games Enough?
The reactionaries will also undoubtedly argue that there are lots of games that are gender-neutral, and women can just play those. (This is that 90% group that I hypothesized.) There are plenty of RPGs in which you create your own character, male or female; isn’t that enough? Or Bejeweled. No protagonist at all in puzzle games, so no problem, right?

No, and here’s why. Interactive storytelling is hard enough to do well when the player can influence the plot (which is why many games still tell linear stories), but it’s extremely hard to do well when the designer knows nothing about the protagonist, including its sex. This is why adventure games, in which story is paramount, almost always have a predefined protagonist. The stories in games with a predefined protagonist (such as the Silent Hill series) are generally better than those in games with generic avatar. Telling female players that they have to be content with gender-neutral games consigns them to a second-class status in which they don’t get the best stories.

So what about games that have female characters? If I'm not content with those, I'm suddenly second class?

You might not feel like that, but there is tons of people online that does.

The Arguments Against Doing Anything
The next question is whether we should do anything about the problem. If you visit YouTube or the gamer message boards frequented by reactionary players, you encounter, again and again, the same set of arguments for not building any new games that the progressive players might like. I’ll summarize them here:



  • Dismissive: They’re only games; they’re not important, so it doesn’t matter if there aren’t many women or their portrayal of women is unrealistic.

  • Male chauvinist: Feminazis are pushing their way into the game industry with their political correctness, and they’re going to ruin games and (male) gaming culture.

  • Ignorant: Asking for female protagonists in games is a violation of game designers’ freedom of speech.

  • Misogynist: “Wherever there are happy men there will always be a woman there to ruin it.” That’s about the mildest quote I could find.

  • Financial: Male players don’t like to play female characters, and they like to see the women in games eroticized. The game industry will lose a lot of money if it stops catering to those men.
We can write off the first four arguments pretty quickly:



  • Dismissive: If the content of games doesn’t matter, why are you objecting to some new ones?

  • Male chauvinist: This is identical to the argument that people used to use to keep Jews out of the country club, and it deserves the same response. If gaming culture will be “ruined” by making it a little less hostile to female players, then what you value in gaming culture—bigotryand exclusion—is not worth preserving. Let the ruination commence.

  • Ignorant: Asking for female protagonists in games is an exercise of freedom of speech. Consumer activism is not censorship.

  • Misogynist: Please join a monastery where you can lead a completely happy, woman-free life.
That leaves us with the financial argument, which is the only one that deserves serious attention.Let’s assume for a moment that the game industry is ruled entirely by money, and that profits are oursole consideration. Does the game industry stand to lose a lot of money by alienating men who don’t want games to have strong female protagonists?

Here are my counter arguments:

Dismissive: Because the content of the game does matter. The problem is you are focusing far too much energy on the wrong stuff.

Again subjective and not everyone holds such high standards for the money they put down for games. Sadly most people have low standards and so the crap you and me complain about will perpetuate.

Male chauvinist
: Except the country club for men is about 1/10 the size of the country club for everyone. You're complaining that an exclusive club is too exclusive while you have a perfectly large and varied non-exclusive club.

But people actually give a damn about this and voice their vitrol online about female only protagonists and being gender neutral actually caters to men. Think of this as more tacked on single player when it is obvious that all the resources are devoted to multiplayer cough* cough* Battlefield 3. I think the writing for many games could be a lot better if they made it specifically for a gender instead of going quite generic as if I am a hermaphrodite, but we are stuck with meh writing.

: Right back at you. Those numbers are a direct result of Consumer activism. Forcing your beliefs onto me is a restriction of my freedom.

He is referring to people who go out of their way to snuff the idea of having females in games. You would be surprised how many people having nothing better to do then whine about female characters being in the game. If people weren't so vocal over this dumb shit (pardon) then we wouldn't have to hear so many white knighters or Anita's as money dictates what the consumer will or will not buy.

Misogynist
: Excellent strawman you fucktard. No one said that. What we don't like playing are games aimed at a female audience because, surprise surprise, men and women tend to have different tastes in regards to games. We blame feminist women AND men because you morons are making the industry worse with shit like ME3 and DA2.

Ironically this is exactly the same posts that people make when it is usually misogyny and I have seen it all the time. Am I making the assumption that you are one? No. This is the same straw man that is prevalent in the VG industry and what people like Anita prey on to get their publicity and make things go to the extremes. Also using Bioware is a cheap example as I would have blamed the fact that EA owning them is a major factor since many studios have admitted the first thing a pub does after acquisition is change the culture to fit the pub's ideal culture.


Financial
: The market is the way it is because it is free. Meddle with it and bad stuff will happen.

Bingo. This is exactly why we won't see many female only protagonists is because a lot of people don't feel comfortable playing as a women lead. Even the twat Levine admitted that the financials dictated why they didn't have a female on the cover as it usually correlates to less sales. Is it because of misogyny? Possibly. But at the end of the day what ever the reason financials dictate why things are the way they are in the industry and men/women are not paying for the game for what ever personal reasons.


“Male Players Won’t Play as Female Characters”
Oh look, another strawman.

Can't disregard the fact that this is usually the case as Path of Exile this was a major issue when the only pure mage character is the witch class and is only female. So calling this a straw man is debatable as it was a major issue post release and the dev's didn't act on it.


but David Gaider developed this point at length in his brilliant 2013 GDC talk “Sex In Video Games,” which you can see here. Well-made games sell well regardless, as the better Tomb Raiders have shown.

and now I understand why your article is shit: you're a moronic PR white knight of fucktary.

I'll never understand why feminists use so much double-speak. If the goal is equality it looks like we are already there or very close to it. Sure, there exists a % of games with more male leads instead of female leads, but the vast majority of games are gender friendly (ironically, some of the best games let you CHOOSE your gender). You can't force markets to subscribe to your ideology: such a idea is just Communism.

Ironically that is what you did whole sale as he does make some legitimate points and others is naive or out of touch with reality. Gender neutral doesn't translate to gender friendly and I fail to see that as mainly tacked on to cater any female audience that might be interested in purchasing games. It is like casualizing games in order to have a larger market that might purchase your games and this is a business so you don't want to turn off any chance that a female might pick it up as well.

Honestly I see the feminists reaction going into the extremes because of the vocal people that does the same exact crap giving a shit about this like both the post and the author. Honestly I don't see why it matters as in the end it isn't ideology that dictates what gets made it is the $$$$$. Unless females are going to cough more dough and actually play the games like Remember me or Tomb Raider w/e, this will continue.


Gamasutra used to be a readable site, but this is completely indistinguishable from obnoxious, bottom of the barrell Kotaku click-bait. Nice to see the writer insulting the readers at multiple points and being such a bleeding heart, that's some great journalistic standards. I don't understand why sea keeps associating with it.

Might be unreadable for people that can't tell in the upper left corner that where is says blog so people can voice their opinions retarded or not. I see this article the extreme left and Dragonfireheart to be on the extreme right (arguement can be made). Not sure how any of the material was insulting if it is his opinions, other then a retarded title and parts that doesn't keep with reality. If you are getting worked up over an opinion piece then Jesus Christ you have a tough life ahead of you.

And although the article is not worth commenting on, the reality is that it is young men who invest substantial money in games, buying multiple new releases, and making this business viable, not women. For this simple economic imperative, this business is always going to ultimately cater to what they want.
I agree as this is a capitalistic market and men are the big spenders and not women, might be misogynistic but this is what I see many of the studios focus on when they build games. These studios runs a business not some social/moral movements as in the end the bottom line matters. If the studio is in the red it doesn't how progressive that studio is, bank is going to acquire the IP and employees are all let go and later forgotten.
 

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