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AoD recieves undue praise and favouritism from the Codex

Discussion in 'Iron Tower Studio' started by Tavernking, May 2, 2019.

  1. CappenVarra phase-based phantasmist Patron

    CappenVarra
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    actually, it's more like: dissing AoD recieves undue praise and favouritism from the Codex

    the game is quite alright if you're not min-maxing edgelord or imabetterrpgdesignerthanthou points
     
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  2. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    People keep saying that the game is railroading your character based on chargen, but if that's the case how come there's no 'obvious' path? I'll admit it's been awhile since I played the thief questline, but where's the actual proof of one painting oneself into a corner despite developing a clear character build?
    Also, I don't know that the devs making combined skill checks is a 'new thing', so I'm not sure the context of that, whether it was an early access thing or a new patch since 1.0 release. I only played the game for the first time in 2017, so maybe that's why I don't have this kind of problem after all the patches.

    I object, there's a clear difference.

    Hoarding SPs means one anticipated a high skill check down the line for the sake of passing it. And also that one obviously aren't actually trying to play the game of role-playing, and instead submit to one's own desire to just pass every skill checks out there.
    Meanwhile, reloading after failing stuff and then going back to pick up few SPs or, in other words, accumulating XPs to prepare oneself for more difficult encounter.... how come you can't tell this crystal clear difference?

    I'm not faulting people to hoard SPs. It's, in fact, a valid way to approach a game just as much as spamming Harm in Arcanum. But when you do that while others were able to play the game, 'approach' it normally like any other RPGs, will you fault the system instead of your own desire to pass every checks?

    It's not oversimplifying when it's the truth, though?
    Also, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. Yes, raising skills you've been prioritizing since the beginning during later parts of the game requires ever increasing investment of points, but at the same time the devs also puts in many opportunities to accumulate SPs to accommodate that. But it's not that you make 'wrong major investment of SPs at the wrong time', because like I said even if you happened to encounter a wall you can't pass you can just go back and do something else you can to prepare yourself for that wall.
    And once again, when this kind of situation happens, it's more often than not the players being so hellbent on doing the 'right thing', instead of accepting that 'what's done is done'.

    I also did this, too. But not in fear of missing out or not being able to pass a skill check. Only as a save point I can roll back to if I ever want to pursue different paths from that point.

    Yeah, this is actually one that I thought really strange to put in a 'Thief' questline. I get it that Levir wants to settle the debt, but it's even stranger that this kind of questline didn't even exist in the 'Assassin' questline.
    Hopefully VD and co don't do this weird stuff again with Colony Ship.
     
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  3. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Of course it does :) You just need to deviate from that 'linear' path.
     
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  4. Black Angel Arcane

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    I know, I just remembered we can get a chance to betray both Gaelius and Darista. But what I mean is that you don't get the opportunity to assassinate Gaelius as an assassin like the way it's done in thief questline. We're forced to obey Darista doing Gaelius's bidding, instead of siding with the nobles-merchants-Levir and infiltrate the Palace to assassinate Gaelius.
     
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  5. Saduj Arcane

    Saduj
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    Whoever is saying that is obviously wrong.

    Been a while since I played and I've changed PCs since then. I don't have a save to refer to.

    Reading through the rest of your reply, I think we're going to have to just agree that it is a great game and disagree on this issue.
     
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  6. Black Angel Arcane

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    But that's exactly what people referred to as a start that leads to and ends in 'one painting oneself into a corner'. I'm not saying you said this exact thing, but if you look back a lot of people who disliked this in AoD starts their criticisms that the game only have very restrictive path based on chargen and chardev which leads to a situation they can't get out of other than reloading.
     
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  7. You have a few special instances in the whole game where the skill is used. In those few instances, the loot is valuable or is a means to finish a quest. You don’t have to use the skill one hundred times throughout the whole game to loot useless items as if it was something delightful and rewarding. So no, it is not the same thing, by a mile.

    Because the type of systemic gameplay you want requires a big world to explore and the player needs plenty of SPs to surpass the obstacles without frustration. Otherwise, harsh checks will prevent players from exploring every nook and cranny and players will become frustrated. The games you quote as examples of good design all do that.

    Because it is not only the quest structure is it? It is also the harsh checks, the unforgiving gameworld that forces you to make sacrifices and tough choices. You know, all those things that makes players butthurt enough that they need to hit back at the developer saying that the gameworld is not hardcore and the game is easy. Who needs to say that? The player who got his ass handed to him multiple times and feel insulted.

    But if the gameworld is hostile and has an inner logic instead of being just a theme park to make your feel empowered you are not allowed to explore the locations at your own pace. That you don’t like.

    Of course not. It is just a coincidence that 99% of cRPGs with lockpick are filled with containers and useless loot. cRPG is marred by cargo cult and imbecile features that lead to repetitive and menial tasks.

    Or maybe you could negotiate a ransom, fool a religious group, poison a whole army, betray and ruin a faction, infiltrate a palace, steal tons of gold, get in the frontline of a legendary fight, resuscitate a god like figure, open a portal to another dimension and become a god like figure yourself. You know, the kind of quests that have more narrative impact you happen to find in AoD.

    Look, the problem with your argument is that you are blaming the lack of a single feature considered in abstract and disregarding that the implementation of this feature needs to be done in a way that VD doesn’t approve. We will have stealth in his new game and the same players who were complaining about the lack of stealth will complain again that his steals system sucks. The nice way of saying is that they want a more forgiven game world.
     
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  8. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

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    I see it's pointless to keep arguing with you. I have stated on multiple occasions that I enjoyed AoD, re-played it multiple times, and my only criticism is the structure. Yet you always return to the tired old "You only dislike it because it's hard" shtick.

    I explain why a game with more open exploration and interaction doesn't have to be more casual in difficulty and doesn't require tons of filler, but then you go on to say "But it does."

    I give up. It's like talking to a brick wall.
     
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  9. Saduj Arcane

    Saduj
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    I said earlier in this thread that it isn't true that switching factions always leads to bad things for your character or that there are no choices to make even if you stay loyal to a faction. So obviously, I do not believe that a character is locked into a certain build at character generation.
     
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  10. GentlemanCthulhu Savant

    GentlemanCthulhu
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    It's 2020. Game is still a glorified VN. Garbage.
     
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  11. Goral Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

    Goral
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    Says a guy with Disco Elysium avatar...

    I assume you have avatar like that because you hate DE, otherwise your statement doesn't make any sense since AoD has tons more content and gameplay than this Estonian VN for leftists.
     
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  12. Razzoriel Genos Studios Developer

    Razzoriel
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    Hi im new to this.

    Ive always finded curious AoD's dev tankie attitude. Never played AoD. Just reading the thread and wondering what is VN.
     
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  13. Frank Capicoli Learned

    Frank Capicoli
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    VN=Visual Novel.
     
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  14. Vladimuar Learned

    Vladimuar
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    As a certified tankie, I dare say VD is not a tankie at all.
     
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  15. karoliner Magister

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    Game is shit.
     
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  16. Darth Canoli Magister

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    That's exactly the kind or retards that made me launch the game again.
    Often, a game quality can be assessed by the quality of its critics and 75% of AoD critics are retards, therefore, i knew AoD was doing something right.

    And it does, it's not perfect as many Codexers pointed out already but it's damn good anyway.
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Except that's exactly what's happening in AoD. You literally click on whatever sounds right to you and you either guessed a path that devs scripted or you didn't. Same shit as in Disco Elysium. No, AoD isn't better just because you can fail whereas in DE you pretty much can't. They're both the same shit. Neither really gives you the option to play and use the skills when you want to. It's either where it was scripted or not at all. So yeah, it actually is "super simple and boring".

    You don't like the game unless you think it's perfect and parrot every stupid excuse VD came up with in order to handwave each and every criticism.
     
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  18. [​IMG]
     
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  19. And I have stated on multiple occasions that I also enjoyed games you liked, such as Underrail and Arcanum. But just like your criticisms are directed towards some aspects of AoD, my criticisms are directed towards some aspects of traditional games.

    And I explained why it does and you simply ignored because you are self-absorbed and egotistical. You don't want to discuss anything. You want to use my posts and talk at me to repeat your preferences as if they represented the official truth of game design.

    Of course you do. You think your arguments are fantastic and people should just roll over and concede your points as if they were self-evident. I don't think it is pointless to keep arguing with you. On the contrary. It provides me with a valuable opportunity to pierce some egotistical assumptions about game design that are usually widespread and unchallenged.
     
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  20. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    You didn't.

    You just said "games that currently exist do it this way, so all games that have those features will also do it this way".
    If AoD didn't exist and you were to propose AoD's design, I could just come forth and say "but you can't design a game like this, else it would already exist, trololo".

    Like the "if lockpicking exists as a universally applicable skill, a game also needs 5000 locks to pick" argument. No it doesn't. AoD itself is fucking proof of it because the game contains several chests you can unlock with the lockpick skill. Chests placed in taverns and other places, not connected to any CYOA dialog sequence. This is proof that you can have a universally useable lockpick skill without filling the world with a million chests to pick the locks of.

    Yet you never argue against the design principle in general, you just cite other games that did it in the way you don't like.
    Me: "A game doesn't have to include countless filler shit just because it has open and universal skill usage."
    You: "But games X, Y and Z have open and universal skill usage and are also filled with filler."

    So? Why does that mean all games with open and universal skill usage have to have filler content, always and forever? It absolutely doesn't.
     
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  21. Jason Liang Arcane

    Jason Liang
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    This time, try beating it without using skill points.
     
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  22. Saduj Arcane

    Saduj
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    That is true of every CRPG. The difference is in presentation. In AOD the opportunities to use skills are mostly presented via text. But in games where you can walk up to something, click on it and then select a skill, the skill is only going to work if the developer accounted for that skill being used on the given object. That could mean that the all the developer did was set a door's status to "locked" and assign some sort of difficulty rating. And maybe they also set the door's status to something that can be destroyed with explosives. If there is also a key for that door, there are now three ways of dealing with it. But in some way, someone decided how that door can be opened before you started playing the game and if you think of another way to do it, it isn't going to work.

    I can understand preferring one approach over the other. But there isn't a game in existence that has an AI GM making decisions on what the player can do on the fly.

    Edit: Also, the major difference is that in most games the developer will make sure that any somewhat competently built character will have a way of opening that door. If you don't have the utilitarian skills, you can kill a bunch of people and loot the key. AOD seems much more limited because it is willing to say "This character can't get through that door".
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  23. janior Self-Ejected

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    OH MY GOD AOD IS HORRIBLE IT TELEPORTS YOU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
     
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  24. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    More like it doesn't get praise it should.
    Everything about it amazing.

    Choices
    Combat
    meta-narrative when you finish it multiple times
    characters
    writing

    Potato graphics and hoarding skill points is negative but even with potato graphics you will be still amazed at art when you see that throne room and arch.

    Also it is not that long so you can finish it multiple times to see just how different your play-trough will be if you do something else. Yes that meta narrative was fucking great and imho it is highlight of game.
     
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  25. toro Arcane

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    W'sup Goral ?
     
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