AoW3 or Endless Legends?

[Anthony Davis]

I am only going to buy one.

I've read the individual threads here at the Codex, and the pros and cons for both seem so divided.

Right now I'm leaning towards Endless Legends because someone described it to me as HoMM meets Civ. However, I have a history with AoW - and I gently caressed the hell out of AoW:SM.

Decide for me Codex, but decide quickly if you can. I would like to play it this weekend (and I should have posted this Friday morning instead of Saturday night).

If the vote isn't decisive enough, I guess I can wait till next weekend.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

EL:
Better empire management
More diversity in gameplay styles
Better graphics
Better music
More patching/expansion in its future

AoW3:
Better combat system
Better AI
Better UI

Empire management is the first and foremost draw that these games have on me so I prefer EL

 

[Anthony Davis]

I also read somewhere here that AoW felt soulless compared to EL.

hmmmm.

 

[sser]

AoW3 has infinitely better combat and combat-oriented exploration (spelunking-type stuff). The city-planning element is pretty much nonexistent.

It's more or less the exact opposite for EL.

 

[Norfleet]

Is EL even a thing? Last I heard it was still vaporware.

 

[Eyeball]

Endless Legend is a much better game. Each faction is vastly different from each other and not just reskinned troops. The factions are cool too and very non-standard fantasy:

- A faction of undead spirits inhabiting suits of armour, having to consume magic instead of food to get their cities to grow.

- A swarm of man-eating bugs that excel at growing huge hive cities and zerg-rushing the enemy. Cannot engage in diplomacy at all due to their constant hunger.

- A bizarre genocidal cult of mechanical automatons that are restricted to having 1 city but can offset this by converting minor factions to fight for them

- A clan of wandering traders with massive bonuses to trade gold income and the ability to pack their settled cities unto the backs of giant beetles and move them to more convenient locations. Cannot EVER declare war, since war is bad for trade, but can instead use privateers to harrass the opposition. Can opt to have other players banned from using the in-game marketplace, preventing them from trading in resources or mercenaries, which is a nightmare for factions like the Cultists.

- A race of diplomatic dragon-people who're intent on unifying the planet through Good Manners and peaceful coexistence between all factions, but aren't afraid to murder you if you misbehave. Ideal faction for winning diplomatic victory.

- A race of elves. Yeah, they're pretty much the only boring faction in the game, which is a shame as they're probably also the strongest.

Compared to AOW3, there is a stunning variety of gameplay mechanics depending on which faction you choose and EL is a surprisingly deep game once you get into it.

Can't comment on the combat as I autoresolve that shit anyway in both AOW3 and EL, but EL has gear customisation for regular troops as well as heroes up the wazoo, adding another layer to army buildup.

EL's AI is pretty horrible, although I'm told they're working on improving it. You gotta pretty much play at close to max difficulty to be challenged. Even so, EL is the best 4X I've played in ages and I will absolutely get any eventual expansion packs or DLCs the devs put out. I just hope they fix their fucking AI.

 

[Eyeball]

Is EL even a thing? Last I heard it was still vaporware.

Been out for weeks:http://store.steampowered.com/app/289130/

 

[InspectorRumpole]

AoW3 was a massive let down, but the combat is good.

 

[tindrli]

also i just noticed that Endeless has 67 achievments while AOW has only 47. that has to mean something!!

 

[Frusciante]

I got bored with AoW3 very quickly. Like other's have said, the empire building part is almost non-existent. It's mostly about the combat and exploration. It's not a bad game at all, but I like building an empire/economy the most in these types of games.

Just bought EL, going to try it now.

 

[adddeed]

AoW3 is superb.

However it's combat oriented. People should research before buying.

 

[muds_animal_friend]

My vote goes to Warlock 2 to be honest. It's the dumber, goofier cousin to AoW/EL, but strangely compelling none the less.

Endless Legend needs bug fixing, major AI improvements, and a couple of expansions to realise its potential. It has improved vastly since its early access release, but, right now, it's simply a collection of interesting ideas rather than a compelling single-player game.

AoW 3 ... meh. Not a bad game by any means, but it's doomed to linger forever in predecessors shadows. I can't work up any motivation to play it when I could just play a Shadow Magic mod instead.

 

[Drakron]

also i just noticed that Endeless has 67 achievments while AOW has only 47. that has to mean something!!

Likely victory conditions and number of factions.

 

[Norfleet]

I got bored with AoW3 very quickly. Like other's have said, the empire building part is almost non-existent.

How's the empire building nonexistent? You build cities, you build roads, you build forts and towers...you produce units and buildings in said cities....It seems to me that it covers all the essentials you'd expect out building an empire. Sure, I guess the option to micromanage peasant labor distributions isn't present, and SOME games of the genre offer this, but is this really IMPORTANT? Do you WANT to have to micromanage peasants? If I wanted to micromanage peasants, I would be playing Warcraft.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Go for Endless Legends, it has so-so combat and brain dead AI but it is much more fun.

 

[Raghar]

Pirate both then decide.

 

[Hobo Elf]

AoW3 has better AI and combat, but after a few games it started to feel sorta hollow and like I've seen everything it had to offer. The game also lacks many of the races that previous AoW games had and felt really banal and generic with the usual high fantasy trope races. They added Hobbits, my favorite race, as DLC, but I haven't tried it yet. I heard that it improves the game greatly.

EL on the other hand manages to surprise me each time I play it with new found depth. What the game lacks in AI (which the devs are looking to fix) it makes up for in every other aspect imo. All the factions feel so unique compared to each other, and if that's not enough for you then you can also customize your own faction. It is also the must unique fantasy 4X game with a setting and flavor unlike any other.

 

[sser]

I got bored with AoW3 very quickly. Like other's have said, the empire building part is almost non-existent.

How's the empire building nonexistent? You build cities, you build roads, you build forts and towers...you produce units and buildings in said cities....It seems to me that it covers all the essentials you'd expect out building an empire. Sure, I guess the option to micromanage peasant labor distributions isn't present, and SOME games of the genre offer this, but is this really IMPORTANT? Do you WANT to have to micromanage peasants? If I wanted to micromanage peasants, I would be playing Warcraft.

Considering there are economic, diplomatic, and quest-related ways to win at EL, yeah, managing cities is good gameplay. Not every 4X has to be a combat-fest. AOW3 is certainly good at that, but if the purchaser wants more he should probably look at EL.

 

[Atheist]

Is PBEM in AoW 3 yet? Or something else that lets you play with people without all of them being online at the same time? I was pissed when they removed that. Does Endless Legends have it? Whichever has it is the better game.

If neither does then FUCK

Concepts referred to in this post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play-by-mail_game#Play-by-Email
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game

 

[Raghar]

AoW3 is horribly simplified. It even lacks proper item forge.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Endless Legend, easy peasy. Age of Wonders 3 (Though they've slowly been improving it bit by bit) isn't up to snuff with Shadow Magic as far as AoW games are concerned. The morale system is relatively weak (Whereas in SM units could be pissy in a mixed army of good and evil, not really the case in 3), the good and evil dynamic doobiewhomper is pretty pointless (And it's much, MUCH easier to be good than evil and there's not any particular reason to be one or the other), and the differences between the races are much more minor than the differences between sovereign class because unlike in other Age of Wonders the races are just a base template that you layer your class on, instead of being "The goblins except with a wizard that likes fire instead of boulders". It's definitely not a bad game but it doesn't do much to warrant picking it over Shadow Magic.

Endless Legend on the other end is much more "Fantasy civ-like" which may or may not be up your alley. Pretty much all the races have fairly major differences, there are a number of different victory conditions, the map generator tends to spit out pretty interesting results (Protip, set your maps to disturbed. Makes for more interesting province shapes and layouts) and it's just really well done. The biggest hits against it are fairly weak AI (Harder difficulties improve it some but it's nothing super special to play against, it just starts getting more aggressive and more cheaty bonuses) and as usual with these kinds of games I wish the diplomacy did more. It has a hell of a lot more options than AoW3 or a horrible horrible Fallen Enchantress Legendary Heroes, but there isn't much flavor to it. Similarly, Brut was put off a bit because most of the techs and buildings are just straight numbers. There aren't really wonders to speak of and there's nothing quite like getting to gunpowder before other civs, so there aren't as many moments when you build/research something and feel like you've got a good leg up on your opponents. It's more along the lines of "Aha, this buiilding will give me 10 production and +15% production so I'll be able to make those units a turn or two faster!". I don't mind it but I can definitely see how it would be a letdown.

Also EL is pretty and sounds purdy. AoW3's not bad in that regard but EL is extremely nice.

Edit:

My vote goes to Warlock 2 to be honest. It's the dumber, goofier cousin to AoW/EL, but strangely compelling none the less.

Actually yeah, I'd put Warlock 2 a little bit ahead of AoW3 but behind EL. Warlock 2 and AoW3 are both straight wargames where everything is focused around beating the shit out of the other players so they're more directly comparable than either of those and EL, and Warlock 2 was a little cleaner and more focused than AoW3. AoW3's got the better AI though.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Actually yeah, I'd put Warlock 2 a little bit ahead of AoW3 but behind EL. Warlock 2 and AoW3 are both straight wargames where everything is focused around beating the shit out of the other players so they're more directly comparable than either of those and EL, and Warlock 2 was a little cleaner and more focused than AoW3. AoW3's got the better AI though.

If AoW3 has better AI does that mean Warlock 2 and EL are for retarded retards?

Not entirely. Warlock 2's tactical AI is reasonable, it's just absolutely terrible at empire building/management. EL's AI gets a bit more aggressive on hard and while it isn't very smart at all it will send forces after you. Due to the wildly different nature of some of the EL races some are more inclined to do that than others. For example the roving clans just 100% can't declare war, and the bugs can't get any friendlier than cold war, and the drakken tend to be peaceful since all their bonuses are geared toward diplomacy. EL AI seems poor at focusing on and building toward a victory condition though.

Out of all of them AoW3's AI plays its game the best. It's completely retarded as far as diplomacy goes (AI will drop trou for the stupidest of gifts and become your best friend for life) but other than that it tends to do the best at building cities and cranking out armies of highest available tier units. It even mostly understands how to play the control point mode introduced in the Golden Realms DLC. I like AoW3 as a game the least but the AI's not really an area you can fault except for the diplomacy.

 

[sser]

Warlock's tactical AI has always been sharp - I think that had to have been a relic from the game engine it is built upon. MHC is right though - AoW3's AI plays to fucking win. It spams cities and hordes of armies and it's primary function in life is to steamroll, preferably while its eyes glow red with tunnel vision. I imagine EL's AI will improve as they patch it up. The problem with the Roving Clans/Drakkens is that they totally have ways to fuck over enemies, like the privateers, the AI just doesn't use them. For some reason the most aggressive AI I always run into are the elves. Presumably a reflection of the fact that they are the most generic, straightforward civ in EL. I don't think EL's combat can be fixed though. It's pretty dreadful, IMO. The depth and variety in the strat screen make up for it, but I'd never recommend EL to somebody looking for good combat.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I don't think EL's combat can be fixed though. It's pretty dreadful, IMO. The depth and variety in the strat screen make up for it, but I'd never recommend EL to somebody looking for good combat.

Not really disagreeing here (Though I think EL's combat is alright. It's not the disappointment that ES's combat is but I often just use autoresolve since I don't really care about it) but it is worth mentioning that you can assign both a move and attack order in EL. Only mentioning it 'cause IIRC the game doesn't mention it in the tutorial or make it readily apparent. Ctrl-clicking with a unit selected lets you both mark a movement location and an enemy/friendly target. EL's combat is still pretty clunky even learning about that (If a unit's path gets blocked because something takes a choke point it will try moving to the destination by any means possible, even circling the whole map) especially with the way it handles orders and initiative order, but it does help a little bit and I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

How do Both of these games compare to Civilization in terms of Empire Building?

Like in Civilization your realm would grow fairly slowly, but every inch of it would be worked on and you can have defensive stuff like territory wide walls, fortress...