Arcanum and Morrowind are still unsurpassed

[Tim the Bore]

Games like Morrowind or Arcanum won't happen again anytime soon, unless by an accident. They require too much resources and manpower

Not really. Morrowind was made by 30 malnourished people. Many of those weren't full time, so just several key people. At a time when Bethesda was on the brink of bankrupcy.

The reason Morrowind is awesome was centrally authored content by 2-3 educated talented leads. Kirkbride and Rolston made Morrowind, with support from unsung guys like Noah Berry and Mark Bullock.

They were the ideas guys, sure. But you still need people to create that vision. People who are competent and on the same page. Programmers, coders, writers, artists, marketing guys etc. And you need to pay them accordingly, and they are not cheap.

To make the game on the same scale as Morrowind today, well, that would require much more than just 30 folks. Same goes for Arcanum. Just because 4 guys were crucial in the production process doesn't mean that they would do it alone. And the more workes you have, the less risky you can be.
Creating video games is not about having an idea, but rather about being competent enough to execute that idea. E.g. it's not the lack of ideas that doomed BioWare, but their flagrant ignorance of the more concret, less glamorous parts of the process. Programing, scripting etc.

Morrowind was never complicated or difficult to begin with. Neither was Arcanum. There were some quests in both that were (e.g. finding the dwarf thingamajig in the lost city in Morrowind, or doing that meta-quest in Arcanum) but those were the exceptions to the rule.

You misunderstood. I didn't mean that this or that particular quest was complicated, but that understanding those games was, as a whole, rather complex. Compared to today's standards, both Arcanum and Morrowind would be perceived as fairly complicated. Morrowind is really, really alien and unique, while Arcanum allows you to create a lot of different builds, so, yeah, I consider them both to be pretty complex. Sure, if you compare them to, say, Wizardry IV or Grimoire, then they are shallow, but, overall, they are not. But, again, I'm not speaking about the difficulty of this or that particular fight, but about the whole idea of how you can interact with their worlds.

Yeah, these games didn't have quest markers and directions for everything, but guess what, back then, no game did.

Son, I wasted my youth on Gothics, Darklands, U:Underworld, Might & Magic, Stalkers and Fallouts. I know how the landspace looked like.

EDIT: Porky Citation needed for what exactly?

 

[jungl]

it really comes down to most games are made for the call of duty crowd now. Quest markers everywhere. Huge focus on combat look at outer worlds and dragon age 3 for examples of this. Whatever is the 3 pillars of gaming that is the only thing triple AAA focus on for the call of duty crowd. combat, story and ? I forgot the third one.

Morrowind and arcanum have light sandbox and adventure game elements "do stuff on ur own how you best see fit and develop your character how you want" where triple AAAs don't have these things and are scared to implement them. It demands too much self agency from the crowd they selling the game to and developing your character how you want requires them to tone down their story and combat pillars down.

So what are we left with indie developers? The problem with indiefags is that they only have so much manpower and have to appeal to niche that is going to buy their indieshit which makes their games hyper focused on one or two game elements and that is about it.

 

[and 8 others]

You are missing the point Falksi. Yeah, you can run and fly and cast powerful spells... against brain dead AI in a world filled with Cliff Racers and other similar crap. You are a demi-god in a special ed class. Most people would prefer to be a hobo in a real seeming world, ie Gothic.

Nope I disagree.

To me Morrowind is full of vivid memories and interesting interactions.

A woman I meet in the wilderness asks me to find her ring in a pond. As I dive into the pond to find the ring I suddenly get pelted with arrows. I come out of the pond confused, can't spot who is shooting at me. It was a trap. A near invisible archer wearing a ring of "chameleon" was waiting near the pond.

The hidden vampire factions' quests are memorable, and so are those of the Morag Tong, Imperial Cult and many other factions.

Beyond the quests and the encounters in the wilderness, the world of Morrowind is consistent, interesting and exotic. If you decide to explore the lore in further detail you realise the characters are not one dimensional. Even Vivec, the living God, is flawed.

You only become godly towards the end of the game, unless you've been abusing the enchantment system, in which case it was your choice to break the balance of the game.

 

[jackofshadows]

I'm glad that Morrowind didn't lose appeal for OP because it certainly did lose it for me. Its lore and art-style simply can no longer carry the rest which is... bad, and I mean bad wherever you look.

Have you tried Kenshi, JarlFrank ? I haven't tried it myself tbh yet but it seems like the case which at least "tried" as opposed to what you wrote there.

 

[Beans00]

When did the morrowind whitewashing start on this forum?
Back when I used to post here in 08 and lurk in 06/07 pretty much everyone hated Morrowind and viewed it as a huge decline from better games of the 90s(including daggerfall which I never played). Except some random pollock really liked it, name escapes me though.

Now somehow it's a top 10 rpg? Was it a lot of newer posters first RPG? I guess I could see it being enjoyable if you really like exploring but the world is so stale and empty and depopulated. It's like playing Baldurs gate 1 in first person except everyone talks like a reference book.

 

[Humanophage]

Morrowind is nothing too special except for the beautiful setting and somewhat less restrictive magic. On the other hand, Arcanum is definitely one the best games - I actually didn't like it that much when it came out because it kept crashing on me, but I came to appreciate it throughout the 2010s. Few games allow for such diverse characters, even though the combat is trash.

 

[luj1]

When did the morrowind whitewashing start on this forum?

When it stopped being an isometric forum.

 

[Funposter]

morrowind and tony hawk's pro skater 2 are the only good video games ever made

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

When did the morrowind whitewashing start on this forum?
Back when I used to post here in 08 and lurk in 06/07 pretty much everyone hated Morrowind and viewed it as a huge decline from better games of the 90s(including daggerfall which I never played). Except some random pollock really liked it, name escapes me though.

In the Codex's very first year in review for 2002, Morrowind finished in the top 3 for all but one of those voting. In 2010, Morrowind was voted the #4 RPG of the decade in a special Codex vote. When the Codex as a whole voted on the best CRPGs of all time in 2014, Morrowind finished #7.

There's always been a large contingent of support for Morrowind on the Codex, and from what I've heard from old-timers the Codex did not initially exhibit the slavish support for every isometric-perspective game released in a certain time frame that later arose (fortunately receding in recent years).

 

[Falksi]

You are missing the point Falksi. Yeah, you can run and fly and cast powerful spells... against brain dead AI in a world filled with Cliff Racers and other similar crap. You are a demi-god in a special ed class. Most people would prefer to be a hobo in a real seeming world, ie Gothic.

Ironic that you say I'm missing the point, when the point of JarlFrank's post is that those things - and the flaws of these games - aren't what he's focusing on or this thread is about.

It's about the fact that the stuff they do well hasn't been done as well since.

Whether you enjoy the game or not is another thing, but Jarl Frank's point stands firm here IMO. The only enemy on the entire game could be a cliff racer, and that takes nothing away from being able to explore a lush world which feeds back to the player significantly, and often in game-changing ways (such as the book example which the Jarl mentions).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

(fortunately receding in recent years).

They've exchanged it for slavish support of CYOAs

 

[Funposter]

There's always been a large contingent of support for Morrowind on the Codex

you either like morrowind or gothic 2. these are the two varieties of posters.

 

[Deadyawn]

Wholeheartedly agree. Both have some very glaring flaws but are explorefag-core nonetheless

 

[anvi]

I remember playing it when it was new and I remember my thoughts about it exactly. I thought it was similar to EQ but far worse in every possible way, massively less interesting, shallower and simpler, buggier, uglier, stupider, with no multiplayer capability, and 3 years later.

But I figured it was an Xbox game so was kept simple for console and it could serve as an entry level RPG for people who hopefully then graduate to proper RPGs (which the PC was full of at the time!!!) I didn't know it was going to become the new standard for all RPGs...

 

[JDR13]

You only become godly towards the end of the game, unless you've been abusing the enchantment system, in which case it was your choice to break the balance of the game.

That's definitely not true. I barely used the enchantment system, and the game was a cakewalk by the halfway point. It was still fun just from the exploration alone, but the difficulty curve is almost as broken as the economy.

Not that it really matters because the combat is terrible anyways.

 

[JDR13]

you either like morrowind or gothic 2. these are the two varieties of posters.

I like both, but, for me, Gothic 1 & 2 are superior by far.

 

[Beans00]

When did the morrowind whitewashing start on this forum?
Back when I used to post here in 08 and lurk in 06/07 pretty much everyone hated Morrowind and viewed it as a huge decline from better games of the 90s(including daggerfall which I never played). Except some random pollock really liked it, name escapes me though.

In the Codex's very first year in review for 2002, Morrowind finished in the top 3 for all but one of those voting. In 2010, Morrowind was voted the #4 RPG of the decade in a special Codex vote. When the Codex as a whole voted on the best CRPGs of all time in 2014, Morrowind finished #7.

There's always been a large contingent of support for Morrowind on the Codex, and from what I've heard from old-timers the Codex did not initially exhibit the slavish support for every isometric-perspective game released in a certain time frame that later arose (fortunately receding in recent years).

Considering the competition of 2002 was Neverwinter nights and Might and magic 9. I think that speaks more for 2002 then Morrowind.

Joined in 2015 though. It's a shame Morrowind was your first rpg :p.

 

[flushfire]

While I agree that Arcanum's combat isn't good, I'll never understand the codex' extremely negative view of it. There's worse in even overall decent games.

My first playthrough of Arcanum was with a firearm build, and I even played the entire game in RT. I remember thinking it was so chaotic, I can't even click on enemies early on. Still didn't think it was so bad once I got used to it.

 

[Beans00]

There's always been a large contingent of support for Morrowind on the Codex, and from what I've heard from old-timers the Codex did not initially exhibit the slavish support for every isometric-perspective game released in a certain time frame that later arose (fortunately receding in recent years).

People generally had mixed feelings on Baldurs gate for example. The only isometric game that was fetishized was Fallout 1/2. For good reason.

Morrowind again, I guess if you like walking around empty worlds talking to reference book characters looking at giant mushrooms... I guess it was ok? As an RPG it failed though.

 

[Funposter]

you either like morrowind or gothic 2. these are the two varieties of posters.

I like both, but, for me, Gothic 1 & 2 are superior by far.

I probably should have said "prefer".

 

[rusty_shackleford]

the favorite 2002 RPG of real cool kids is Divine Divinity

 

[gurugeorge]

it's a game I should like but I always get so bored with it.

It's too transitory. It lacks the casual power fantasy appeal of Skyrim, and doesn't have the depth of Daggerfall, and is full of annoying design decisions. Combat consists of missing cliff racers for 20 hours, dialogue is like reading a phonebook, dungeons are two rooms long, quests are *completely* unrewarding, and fast travel is tedious so you spend half the game lost in the fog or dust.

But oh man talking to Dagoth Ur man the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEE

Which again has nothing to do with it's stunningly absorbing and unique world.

You start Skyrim able to do most things which you can when you end it, with odd gimmicky perks adjusting that slightly. Probably the most noteable the bullet-time archery perk, but that doesn't really influence how your player plays, nor how you interact with the world.

You start Morrowind barely able to move or jump, and after investing enough hours you can fly and run around the world at lightening speed like a demi-god. The evolution getting there is very rewarding & satisfying.

As for lore, I didn't even touch the lore until my third playthrough as I was just enjoying taking in the sights, finding all the undiscovered stuff, and experimenting with different character builds & faction allegiances. Which make a huge difference to how the game pans out.

That kind of zero-to-hero progression is over-rated, I don't think it's as essential to an RPG as other factors, and lack of it doesn't necessarily make a game not-an-RPG. Some progression is nice, sure, but going from zero to hero is kind of artificial and immersion-breaking unless there's a rationale for it in the virtual world/story, which is really hard to come by other than starting you off as a callow youth, a bum or an amnesiac.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Ironic that you say I'm missing the point, when the point of JarlFrank's post is that those things - and the flaws of these games - aren't what he's focusing on or this thread is about.

It's about the fact that the stuff they do well hasn't been done as well since.

Whether you enjoy the game or not is another thing, but Jarl Frank's point stands firm here IMO. The only enemy on the entire game could be a cliff racer, and that takes nothing away from being able to explore a lush world which feeds back to the player significantly, and often in game-changing ways (such as the book example which the Jarl mentions).

Morrowind is mostly for explorationfags, because combat is obviously utter shit, and while writing has its moments, the wiki dialogue kills that bird. But people praising its exploration generally don't objectively evaluate it, all of it.

Sure there are some good parts, like you have to figure shit out yourself (though this was true of pretty much all games around that time period), and there are some cool exotic places, and you can use certain spells and abilities to aid it.

But you have to also mention the boring animals and monsters (the eponymous cliff racers, the fucking mudcrabs or whatever those knocking insects were, the daedra, etc), for a world of such vast size, the enemy/beast variety was very underwhelming, and their brain dead AI made things far worse.

You also have to mention the massive copy-pasting going on with points of interest. Once you saw one vampire crypt, or cave, or daedra shrine or whatever, the next 50 you would find would be rather boring, because they all felt the same, with some minor cosmetic differences. There was little in the way of custom, unique content for each, like say quests, in most cases, so it just got old fast. Bethesda games also always had very underwhelming equipment and loot, so that didnt help either.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

stunningly absorbing and unique world.

I remember it being mostly brown or gray, foggy, and either a swamp or a desert. At the time I was horribly disappointed by the tiny dungeons, stripped-down character creation from Daggerfall, and generally worthless guilds. It felt gimped due to being a console port. Any possibility of being immersed into the world was totally ruined by the generic wikipedia-style NPCs who repeat the same hyperlinked topics by town or region.

Truthfully I haven't played it since release, the experience was so tedious I've never had the urge to replay it.

 

[smaug]

I’ve only played a little bit of both but from what I have played and seen they are unique RPGs which is the only thing that matters because fuck banal generic rpgs who do nothing interesting.