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Arcanum and Morrowind are still unsurpassed

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That's just not true.

There's 45 different types of creatures throughout Vvardenfell . Lots of which are very unique and original such as the Kwama's and their variations.

Considering Vvardenfell is roughly 16km worth of playing space, that's more than plenty. I mean, there's only just over 40 species of animals on display at the British Wildlife Centre to represent the entire of the UK.

The cliffracer & mudcrab thing is annoying fair enough. From a gameplay perspective that and the combat definitely drag the experience down. But you've got to be pretty flakey to allow such a minor annoyance detract you from all the positive stuff which Morrowind offers and which JarlFrank has posted about. It's like having a violent, rape-esq threesome on offer with Belladonna and Faye Reagan submissively offering themselves you you as your fucktoys, and turning it down because they want you to buy them some shoes.

It's absolutely true. The 40 type thing is not so impressive when you consider how huge Morrowind is, but there are 2 additional factors:

1. Many of those 40 types are specific to some inner locations, eg vampires in caves, etc. So outside, Morrowind feels REALLY barren, and that's why cliff racers or mudcrabs are such a meme, because you can go long stretches of terrain and only see one or two types of living thing.

2. The absolute lack of AI/advanced behavior. Take Gothic games for example, they had wolves hunting scavengers, and other interactions between wild life, or the way animals would respond to the player in complex ways (e.g. scavengers threatening first, then attacking). In Morrowind, wildlife would just basically stand there, or float around, and then attack.
 

Falksi

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That's just not true.

There's 45 different types of creatures throughout Vvardenfell . Lots of which are very unique and original such as the Kwama's and their variations.

Considering Vvardenfell is roughly 16km worth of playing space, that's more than plenty. I mean, there's only just over 40 species of animals on display at the British Wildlife Centre to represent the entire of the UK.

The cliffracer & mudcrab thing is annoying fair enough. From a gameplay perspective that and the combat definitely drag the experience down. But you've got to be pretty flakey to allow such a minor annoyance detract you from all the positive stuff which Morrowind offers and which JarlFrank has posted about. It's like having a violent, rape-esq threesome on offer with Belladonna and Faye Reagan submissively offering themselves you you as your fucktoys, and turning it down because they want you to buy them some shoes.

It's absolutely true. The 40 type thing is not so impressive when you consider how huge Morrowind is, but there are 2 additional factors:

1. Many of those 40 types are specific to some inner locations, eg vampires in caves, etc. So outside, Morrowind feels REALLY barren, and that's why cliff racers or mudcrabs are such a meme, because you can go long stretches of terrain and only see one or two types of living thing.

2. The absolute lack of AI/advanced behavior. Take Gothic games for example, they had wolves hunting scavengers, and other interactions between wild life, or the way animals would respond to the player in complex ways (e.g. scavengers threatening first, then attacking). In Morrowind, wildlife would just basically stand there, or float around, and then attack.

And we're back to missing the point.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
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Very well put. And that's part of the decline thing spoken of above - when these games were made for nerds, they more or less had to flesh out the game to the end, because autists would raise a stink if the game didn't have good (preferably increasing) depth and complexity right through to the end.

Its not a problem of complexity. For example Dark Souls is mechanically even more basic than Skyrim but it works with those basic mechanics to fill out a 20-30+ hour game. Same with most 90s shooters, they are mechanically very simple but they work with those simple mechanics to achieve a greater whole. Skyrim just has a lot of disjointed systems that never really connect to do anything interesting. Like for example using elemental resistances to make enemies killable only with certain damage types. Or forcing you to burn undead to really kill them. Or making quests where you need to get a specific rare item, like an ebony sword, and letting the player figure out how to do it. Have puzzles that are more than simon says and so on.

The mechanics are there but they are just not used for anything beyond spamming draugrs and pretending the computer generated dungeons were made by hand. If someone wanted to it would not be too hard to "fix" Skyrim but it would take some out of the box thinking which seems to be a rather tall order for the Skyrim modding community as that is the same community that pretends adding 10 spells into the game counts as a overhaul.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The mechanics are there but they are just not used for anything beyond spamming draugrs and pretending the computer generated dungeons were made by hand. If someone wanted to it would not be too hard to "fix" Skyrim but it would take some out of the box thinking which seems to be a rather tall order for the Skyrim modding community as that is the same community that pretends adding 10 spells into the game counts as a overhaul.

Enderal is decent. Still suffers from Skyrim gameplay a bit, but it's leagues above Skyrim overall.
 

wwsd

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...and the fact that you can collect head titles like stamps basically abolishes everything good about them. At least the devs were bold (I guess, or should I say smart?) to separate the joinable great houses.

I get this criticism, but it's a bit overdone. You would need a lot of time investment in one playthrough to actually join all guilds and lead them all. Over 40 hours easily, and that ignores the main quest, expansions, and all the other stuff to do in the unmodded game besides faction quests. They could have made it harder to join some factions initially, but in the end it's a single-player game. The player has infinite time at his disposal, and eventually you can raise all stats and skills to the point where you can still join any guild at will, and indeed make any undertaking trivial. At most, they could have made more guilds mutually exclusive like the Great Houses. But is that really fair on the player if he has the skills to join? Unless they based the exclusivity on quest choices and consequences, like with the Fighters and Thieves Guilds. More of that would have been good.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Lol, Morrowind fanboys: "If you accept that Morronwind is utter shiiite, then other than that, it's a great game, and no one has done it better..." :stupid:

Show me a game that has zero flaws.

Morrowind and Arcanum are both intensely flawed.

But they're also really fucking amazing at core elements of RPGs: explorefaggotry, character development, world reactivity.

They're not perfect games but for some reason, they're the best we got.
 

Yosharian

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Very well put. And that's part of the decline thing spoken of above - when these games were made for nerds, they more or less had to flesh out the game to the end, because autists would raise a stink if the game didn't have good (preferably increasing) depth and complexity right through to the end.

Its not a problem of complexity. For example Dark Souls is mechanically even more basic than Skyrim but it works with those basic mechanics to fill out a 20-30+ hour game. Same with most 90s shooters, they are mechanically very simple but they work with those simple mechanics to achieve a greater whole. Skyrim just has a lot of disjointed systems that never really connect to do anything interesting. Like for example using elemental resistances to make enemies killable only with certain damage types. Or forcing you to burn undead to really kill them. Or making quests where you need to get a specific rare item, like an ebony sword, and letting the player figure out how to do it. Have puzzles that are more than simon says and so on.

The mechanics are there but they are just not used for anything beyond spamming draugrs and pretending the computer generated dungeons were made by hand. If someone wanted to it would not be too hard to "fix" Skyrim but it would take some out of the box thinking which seems to be a rather tall order for the Skyrim modding community as that is the same community that pretends adding 10 spells into the game counts as a overhaul.
Dark Souls' combat is way better than Skyrim's though.
 

Beans00

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Lol, Morrowind fanboys: "If you accept that Morronwind is utter shiiite, then other than that, it's a great game, and no one has done it better..." :stupid:

Show me a game that has zero flaws.

Morrowind and Arcanum are both intensely flawed.

But they're also really fucking amazing at core elements of RPGs: explorefaggotry, character development, world reactivity.

They're not perfect games but for some reason, they're the best we got.

I don't really like judging people for liking different games(unless it's something like league of CSGO). If you really like exploring in games and wandering around and finding shit I guess I understand people having fun on morrowind. IMO the flaws of the game far outweigh any fun to be had exploring. At the time I had already played several better RPGs so morrowind didn't hold any merit for me.

Main issue is I specifically remember you hating BG1(maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else?). I see Morrowind and BG1 having pretty much the same style of world. Massive and pointlessly empty. So I'm curious why you hate 1 and love the other.


Also morrowind character development... Come on guy hyperskilling isn't good character development..
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Main issue is I specifically remember you hating BG1(maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else?). I see Morrowind and BG1 having pretty much the same style of world. Massive and pointlessly empty. So I'm curious why you hate 1 and love the other.

Yeah, I find BG1 to be really boring. It's very empty and there's barely anything of interest to find.

What Morrowind has over BG1:
- exotic, intriguing setting
- much better itemization
- full 3D including a vertical axis, which makes for better exploration than BG's isometric maps
- better dungeons (most of Morrowind's dungeons are tiny and boring, but even those are better than BG1's narrow labyrinths that fuck up the pathfinding of your party)

Also, BG1 has none of the things I described in my OP, so it lacks those things over Morrowind.
 

Valdetiosi

Scholar
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4th page going on and I don't still see answer for JarlFrank's message.

You would think in 20 years of gaming somebody would have decided to create something similiar to Arcanum or Morrowind, just some random indie gamer or such.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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...and the fact that you can collect head titles like stamps basically abolishes everything good about them. At least the devs were bold (I guess, or should I say smart?) to separate the joinable great houses.

I get this criticism, but it's a bit overdone. You would need a lot of time investment in one playthrough to actually join all guilds and lead them all.

To this day there are guilds I haven't joined. Not finished, joined. I haven't even finished Tribunal or Bloodmoon. And I probably replayed the game 5-10 times over the years.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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You can't, because such a game does not exist.

There are a number of games with Morrowind-like exploration.

Gothic, Stalker, Outcast, Arx Fatalis, BotW, Brigand Oaxaca, Dying Light, ELEX, Kenshi.

Among them only Outcast, Brigand and Kenshi have coupled that with original world design.

None of them can rival the breadth and comprehensive quality of Morrowind's lore though.
 

Ravielsk

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Dark Souls' combat is way better than Skyrim's though.

Yeah, well because it works with what little it has. For example in Skyrim stamina is just basically a stat modifier, you dont really need it to swing anything. So everything just spams its attacks endlessly and the difference between a bandit and a bear amount to effectively 0.

In DS its a limiter that sets how many times you can swing, with heavier weapons featuring fewer swings. Enemies do the same, each have different stamina values meaning they take breaks at different points in their attacks. So only by manipulating stamina values DS creates different types of enemies without really changing anything else.

There is nothing preventing Skyrim from functioning in the same way. You would just need to change recharge rates and make having stamina a requirement instead of a dps modifier. To fix the whole game you would need to do more but those fixes are not exactly much greater in terms of complexity.
 

Carrion

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I get that people really like certain aspects of Morrowind or Arcanum, in some cases I do as well, but at the end of the day, a game is the sum total of its parts, and there was so much shit in Morrowind and Arcanum, that you gotta temper your praise quite a bit.
A game that is exceptional at one thing and terrible at some others is likely to be more interesting than a game that is pretty good at everything. A quick glance at any Codex top list will provide you with lots of examples of that. Flaws are something you can learn to live with, but it's the good stuff that makes you return to these games year after year.

As for newer games, I'd say New Vegas deserves a mention. Like Arcanum and Morrowind, it has massive flaws but also genuine bits of greatness and ambition that set it apart from other games. If only it wasn't hampered by being built on a casualized turd...
 
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A game that is exceptional at one thing and terrible at some others is likely to be more interesting than a game that is pretty good at everything. A quick glance at any Codex top list will provide you with lots of examples of that. Flaws are something you can learn to live with, but it's the good stuff that makes you return to these games year after year.

No one is talking about perfect games though, most aren't. But you can absolutely evaluate the good vs the bad, and how they stack up.

Take a truly great game like PST, for example. A ton of amazing writing, plethora of amazing quests, interesting world. This is all the good stuff. Then there is the bad stuff, which is combat, but there is not much of it. Or the somewhat weak last part. So lots of good stuff, a bit of bad stuff, ergo great game. Or take Ultima Underworld, a metric shit-ton of elegant puzzles and intelligent gameplay. Interesting dungeon, fun exploration, fun magic system. Then you have a pretty boring combat system, but again, there is not that much combat compared to other RPGs. So once again, lots of great stuff, a little bad stuff. Great game.

The problem with Morrowind and Arcanum is that although they indisputably have some high quality stuff, the ratio of this good stuff to the shit in them is much more lopsided in favor of shit. It's not just that they both have absolutely terrible combat systems, some of the worst in RPGs ever, but that each game has a SHIT-TON of combat. So they rub your nose in their shit constantly, which hurts the experience. Also the ton of dull as death wiki-dialogue in Morrowind, which you also are constantly engaging in, the massive repetition of dungeons and points of interests, or the lack of real exploration in Arcanum due to how the world is structured. You add all this stuff up, and they are not great experiences for the player, taken as a whole.
 

rogueknight333

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All Arcanum or Morrowind would have needed for either to be at least a strong candidate for the greatest RPG ever was a decent combat system. Or maybe just a combat system that was not complete garbage. Unfortunately, as it is, both games are candidates for having perhaps the worst combat of any RPG I ever played. As a dedicated combatfag, that makes it very difficult for me to enjoy either. Not their only weakness, either, but perhaps the most important.

And it is not just that the combat itself is easy and boring, but that the weak combat drags down everything else, including the game's strengths. Arcanum's immense variety of builds hardly matters when almost any build not deliberately gimped is going to beat everything easily. Likewise with exploration. In Baldur's Gate, for example, finding something as simple and generic as a +1 Weapon was exciting, because the game was difficult enough that such an item could be a game-changer. Finding all the theoretically cool gear Morrowind, for example, has scattered around, is a lot less interesting, because it is not as if I needed any of that stuff. "Hey, I've found an OP item. Now combat will be easy...oh, wait, it already was." A similar issue comes up with the high degree of articulation in Morrowind's equipment slots. It would indeed be interesting to finally fill all those slots with a complete set of uber gear...except we can fill them with junk and still cut through everything with ease, so what difference does it make?

When I first played them, as someone who had been playing cRPGs since the 1980s, those games both looked like massive decline. In retrospect, seeing the even worse decline since, they look a lot better. They certainly did have many outstanding features. At the time, I was hopeful that they would someday spawn sequels or "spiritual successors" that incorporated those features while improving on the ghastly combat and other flaws. Needless to say, that is not what happened, and it appears unlikely it ever will happen.

- full 3D including a vertical axis, which makes for better exploration than BG's isometric maps

I would like to emphasize this a bit, since it was one of Morrowind's features that really impressed me, and one you neglected to mention in your opening post. It was one of the rare 3D RPGs where being 3D actually mattered. You could jump, swim, fly, etc. and thus actually operate in a three-dimensional environment. You could take tactical advantage of this, by, for example, levitating above melee mobs and raining destruction on them from above (not that such clever tricks were actually needed, unfortunately). Most 3D RPGs might as well be 2D for all the actual, substantive use they make of their three-dimensionality.

- better dungeons (most of Morrowind's dungeons are tiny and boring, but even those are better than BG1's narrow labyrinths that fuck up the pathfinding of your party)

So you think we should forgive all the numerous and massive flaws in Arcanum and Morrowind (a position to which I am sympathetic, by the way, since as you rightly say, no game is without flaws), but this one minor flaw in BG1 of poor pathfinding combined with narrow corridors (and an argument could be made that it is more feature than flaw, since coming up with tactics to deal with the narrow corridors can be an interesting challenge), is enough to make BG's elaborate dungeons, all of them with a story behind them and excellent crafted encounters, worse than Morrowind's copy-pasted crypts and such? An odd double standard.
 

jackofshadows

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I get this criticism, but it's a bit overdone. You would need a lot of time investment in one playthrough to actually join all guilds and lead them all. Over 40 hours easily, and that ignores the main quest, expansions, and all the other stuff to do in the unmodded game besides faction quests.
Please don't tell me you evaluate games by their amount of content in hours. I was sent to gather some mushrooms! Yay, GAMEPLAY! CONTENT! Money well spent!
They could have made it harder to join some factions initially, but in the end it's a single-player game. The player has infinite time at his disposal, and eventually you can raise all stats and skills to the point where you can still join any guild at will, and indeed make any undertaking trivial.
And this's a prime example of an abysmal role-play system. If you'll take some time to figure out the connection between skills and atributes you will be able to raise all to maximum. Even blunt solution from the other game in question, Arcanum, 50 level cap is so much better. You actually have to define your character there, decide what his strong points are and what will remain unattainable. In Morrowind, who cares? Just get some coins, find out where the teachers are and raise whatever. Indeed, the guild requirements seems pointless with such system.
Unless they based the exclusivity on quest choices and consequences, like with the Fighters and Thieves Guilds. More of that would have been good.
Totally agree on this but alas, if I'm not mistaken that's the only real example of that design like they chicken out right after or been told to make it more... accessible from then on.
To this day there are guilds I haven't joined. Not finished, joined. I haven't even finished Tribunal or Bloodmoon. And I probably replayed the game 5-10 times over the years.
And this characterizes Morrowind in a positive light how, exactly? Too much content, like I said. Ever heared of the game called WoW? I think you might like it with these kind of merits.
 
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Zanzoken

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I really need to get around to playing Arcanum. I remember giving it a try a few years ago but couldn't get into it.

What's a good build / playstyle for enjoying the game as a first time player? I have seen a lot of people say the combat is pretty bad.
 
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Zanzoken Arcanum is almost a great game. There are many great things about it, but the horrendous combat truly holds it back. The awful visuals don't help either. I can't think of any game that is more deserving of a 2nd chance, but it's difficult to recommend. It's a proper old school RPG experience, so you'll need to invest a lot of time and attention to get the experience people laud about. It's not something you pick up and put down.

Magic is pretty cool, and definitely far easier. Playing as a technologist is probably more of an authentic experience, but much weaker and more demanding of the player. You can amass quite a large party size, but I find it more enjoyable with a smaller one.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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All Arcanum or Morrowind would have needed for either to be at least a strong candidate for the greatest RPG ever was a decent combat system.

A moot point because Morrowind is technically not an RPG at all and will never be one. Its merits in world design and exploration stand regardless (which are what is being raised).
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
- better dungeons (most of Morrowind's dungeons are tiny and boring, but even those are better than BG1's narrow labyrinths that fuck up the pathfinding of your party)

So you think we should forgive all the numerous and massive flaws in Arcanum and Morrowind (a position to which I am sympathetic, by the way, since as you rightly say, no game is without flaws), but this one minor flaw in BG1 of poor pathfinding combined with narrow corridors (and an argument could be made that it is more feature than flaw, since coming up with tactics to deal with the narrow corridors can be an interesting challenge), is enough to make BG's elaborate dungeons, all of them with a story behind them and excellent crafted encounters, worse than Morrowind's copy-pasted crypts and such? An odd double standard.

Nah, it's just one of many reasons I'm not a big fan of BG1. I do love BG2 quite a lot though, a massive improvement upon the first game in pretty much every aspect.

At least people have tried cloning the BG games nowadays (see PoE 1 & 2), but their quality hasn't been reached again either...
 

Beans00

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...and the fact that you can collect head titles like stamps basically abolishes everything good about them. At least the devs were bold (I guess, or should I say smart?) to separate the joinable great houses.

I get this criticism, but it's a bit overdone. You would need a lot of time investment in one playthrough to actually join all guilds and lead them all.

To this day there are guilds I haven't joined. Not finished, joined. I haven't even finished Tribunal or Bloodmoon. And I probably replayed the game 5-10 times over the years.
So we should take your inefficiency in playing Morrowind as poof of it being a good game? Again all your arguments are either subjective and irrelevant. I find it telling that with your paltry intellect you commonly resort emoji spam rather then truly debating Morrowind's merits beyond 'it had good lore if you disagree with me im be salty'.


Also 5-10 playthroughs of Morrowind, Not sure if I should laugh or cry.
 

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