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Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

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Codex Year of the Donut
The way Tolkien saw it re:Orcs (at least they way I understand it, not being a Tolkien scholar or anything), is that they were bestial creatures and thoroughly corrupted, but not evil in themselves. Their weak will and bestial nature make them susceptible to the will of the Dark Lord, much like with blaks and the Democratic party.
Tolkien orcs are based on a racist view towards non-european, non-christian peoples. Tolkien himself admitted on a letter that he made orcs based on mongoloids.

That said, I can't blame the guy for being a product of his era. But I can point out how nonsensic it is to discuss those concepts in any serious manner nowadays. The notion of "evil" is already laughable, what to say of races of sapient beings that are supposedly driven to do "evil" things rather than by biological necessities, self interest, emotions, etc.

But hey, who am I to dictate how people do their let's pretend. Have fun, faggots.
You're right, fellow anti-racist, niggers are just like orcs.
anv06bfsnve91.jpg
Alchemists guild determined he consumed lethal amounts of skooma prior to this interaction.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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So, western civilization then?
The Germans and maybe anything East of Germany, in this case. Possibly Africans too. But the good guys are the Brits and their allies.

Brits saw a ton of conflict in Tolkien's day. Conflicts in Africa, two world wars. It's not strange that he would picture an unreasonable, evil (from his perspective) enemy as a vicious monster.

As he said in that letter:
I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would ‘tolerate’ that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today.
Look at the Ukraine conflict today. Russians call Ukrainians pigs, Ukrainians call Russians orcs. It's natural to picture your foe as inhuman or barely human when he's trying to kill you and you're trying to kill him.

You might lay ultimate blame upon the tyrant in question, but his followers are still twisted by evil and willing to murder you, and possibly your family.

I suspect Tolkien was trying to impress this feeling upon the reader, or else resonate with it. This existential terror of knowing that some evil was brewing in a far off land, and you might be called to leave your peaceful home and journey to destroy it before it destroys you and all you love.

It may have also been cautionary: that just because the evil was once defeated, doesn't mean it won't try to rise again.

So, from the perspective of good, evil, redemption etc., it makes sense why he'd still not be willing to say orcs are irredeemable. Because if they're Germans, then of course he knows they're human beings and can be converted back to the light.

But in the context of a fantasy setting, they are what they are. Yes, they were twisted into being that way, but untwisting something whose whole biology and identity is now violence and killing is a lot more complicated than a regime change.
 

BruceVC

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That's why I warned against conflating Tolkien with a roleplaying system like D&D. I don't think one can talk of a spectrum of morality in Tolkien. In fact, he reminds us that the highest and most virtuous are particularly prone to perdition. Also, what I think he meant with his commentary on orcs above, is that orcs, despite their thoroughly corrupted nature, are still a part of God's creation and subject to God's grace as such.
Yeah, and I think he was pussing out with this. His standard for irredeemable is ridiculous. If no one has the power to create except Iluvatar, and nothing Iluvatar created is irredeemably bad or evil, then no one can be evil. Which makes the word meaningless in the setting.

It's why I think that people should take his letters with a grain of salt. An author's finished works have received a lot more thought and planning that assorted scraps of notes put together in whatever apocrypha.
There is no equivalence between Good and Evil. Thus the distinction he makes between "bad" and "irredeemably bad", as the idea of an "irredeemably bad" creature would place it outside of God's domain. "Bad" is always limited in scope in comparison with "good".
Effectively the same as good and evil. Semantics. Call it "bad" or whatever, it is what it is.
The alignment system is a practical adaptation for people who don't want to start every game session with a theological debate. It gives everyone an idea of what a character should behave like and makes clear distinctions between characters, in order to bring variety. I don't think there's anything more to it.
There is a lot more to it.

D&D is a simulation. And as such, it needs trackable variables.

How do you decide what an evil deity is? Or a good one? How do you weigh the character of a player and decide whether or not he's worthy to wield a holy weapon or a sword of selection?

It's not about variety either. It's about good verses evil, and order vs chaos. Without moral differences, there can be no moral conflict. The alignment system was a way to quantify this, and to facilitate the creation of those conflicts. It was also a tool to help players play their chosen role and not just larp a murder hobo every time.

Maybe you could argue that the 9 alignment system is about variety vs the original system, but the alignment system itself is about more than that.

Edit: You are 100% right about the debate part though. Because that's what happens when you don't track variables and don't spell out rules for people. Even with the rules spelled out, there are people itt who openly announce they don't play by them because they're not "fun".
Edgy dont forget redemption arcs and how anyone can change, remember Viconia from BG series :hug:
 

NecroLord

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It is very christian-like to believe in redemption(which was made possible by Jesus Christ). In D&D it can make for interesting adventures and stories. However,redeeming Tanar'ri and Baatezu is complete bullshit,in my opinion. They are literally made from the raw stuff of Evil and Chaos/Law respectively. They perfectly embody their respective alignments.
Anyway,Sir Tolkien was indeed troubled by the nature of Evil in his works. Remember Melkor and how he screwed up the music of the Ainur by wanting to insert his own theme in it. One might say that Evil began when the greatest "son" of Eru Iluvatar turned his back on him and rebelled out of pride. Like in the Bible,Lucifer,the brightest of all,turned his back on God.
Pride is the worst of all of the cardinal sins. It is esentially turning your back on God.
Orcs were brutal,savage tools. They were made Evil,not born Evil.
 

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It is very christian-like to believe in redemption(which was made possible by Jesus Christ). In D&D it can make for interesting adventures and stories. However,redeeming Tanar'ri and Baatezu is complete bullshit,in my opinion. They are literally made from the raw stuff of Evil and Chaos/Law respectively. They perfectly embody their respective alignments.
I think it is technically possible to "redeem" them. It would just require completely nonsense levels of deus ex machina - especially for abysal lords and the like. To the point that it's not an actual redemption story, but really just a weird science project.

Their form would likely change if they were converted to their opposite alignment. Like an angel becoming a fallen angel or vice versa. Or they'd become neutral and you'd have someone like Fall-From-Grace, who got brain raped for who knows how long until it broke her alignment.

Just as it's possible to shift the planes with belief, it should be possible to shift alignments. It was the entire thesis of Planescape: Torment. What can change the nature of a man? Belief. (Which some say isn't lore-friendly for that reason.) But when it comes to changing someone's very nature, that's a lot of belief required.
Orcs were brutal,savage tools. They were made Evil,not born Evil.
They may not initially have been evil, but after being twisted, they are now indeed born evil.

From birth they are murderous savages. They instinctually desire war and death.

They are as evil as any demon, which is fitting, since demons were also beings of light at one point, before falling into darkness. As was the Devil.

If you can't admit that demons and the Devil are evil, what's the point of the classification?
 

Sarathiour

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I think it is technically possible to "redeem" them. It would just require completely nonsense levels of deus ex machina - especially for abysal lords and the like. To the point that it's not an actual redemption story, but really just a weird science project.

Their form would likely change if they were converted to their opposite alignment. Like an angel becoming a fallen angel or vice versa. Or they'd become neutral and you'd have someone like Fall-From-Grace, who got brain raped for who knows how long until it broke her alignment.

Just as it's possible to shift the planes with belief, it should be possible to shift alignments. It was the entire thesis of Planescape: Torment. What can change the nature of a man? Belief. (Which some say isn't lore-friendly for that reason.) But when it comes to changing someone's very nature, that's a lot of belief required.

All this stuff are way too high for a player's agency, especially in PnP.
 

Silva

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I think it is technically possible to "redeem" them. It would just require completely nonsense levels of deus ex machina - especially for abysal lords and the like. To the point that it's not an actual redemption story, but really just a weird science project.

Their form would likely change if they were converted to their opposite alignment. Like an angel becoming a fallen angel or vice versa. Or they'd become neutral and you'd have someone like Fall-From-Grace, who got brain raped for who knows how long until it broke her alignment.

Just as it's possible to shift the planes with belief, it should be possible to shift alignments. It was the entire thesis of Planescape: Torment. What can change the nature of a man? Belief. (Which some say isn't lore-friendly for that reason.) But when it comes to changing someone's very nature, that's a lot of belief required.
Indeed, lots of things the Nameless One does is impossible in the tabletop setting, like changing one's alignment so fluidly, willing a plant to grow in a matter of seconds or a being out of existence.

That's one of the reasons I always found the setting as portrayed in the videogame much more interesting than the original TSR version, it's much more wild and full of possibilities. Coming from it to the tabletop books they felt so... constraining? The other reason being the fact it focuses on individual issues like death, identity, revenge, redemption, belief, etc. instead of the overarching silliness of "good vs evil" or some such.
 

Alex

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I think it is technically possible to "redeem" them. It would just require completely nonsense levels of deus ex machina - especially for abysal lords and the like. To the point that it's not an actual redemption story, but really just a weird science project.

Their form would likely change if they were converted to their opposite alignment. Like an angel becoming a fallen angel or vice versa. Or they'd become neutral and you'd have someone like Fall-From-Grace, who got brain raped for who knows how long until it broke her alignment.

Just as it's possible to shift the planes with belief, it should be possible to shift alignments. It was the entire thesis of Planescape: Torment. What can change the nature of a man? Belief. (Which some say isn't lore-friendly for that reason.) But when it comes to changing someone's very nature, that's a lot of belief required.

All this stuff are way too high for a player's agency, especially in PnP.
I would prefer a setting where angels and demons (or aasimar and baatezu, or what have you), don't have fluid alignments, for various different reasons.

But that said, limiting player agency isn't one of them. It is pretty sad that the episodic story became the default model of RPG campaign.
 

JamesDixon

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Indeed, lots of things the Nameless One does is impossible in the tabletop setting, like changing one's alignment so fluidly, willing a plant to grow in a matter of seconds or a being out of existence.

Well it's proven that you haven't played pen and paper because this is a stupid statement when you have spells like Wish and Limited Wish that change things immediately. There is the matter of making objects appear out of thin air etc... By the way, none of the spells I mentioned are in the video games and never will be. Finally, Power Word: Kill will kill any target that is 60 hit points or less or two targets with a total of no more than 120 hit points.

As for plant spells, Age Plant can advance or decrease the age of a plant. There are more, but I don't feel like going through nearly 2,000 pages of spells for AD&D 2E.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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It is very christian-like to believe in redemption(which was made possible by Jesus Christ). In D&D it can make for interesting adventures and stories. However,redeeming Tanar'ri and Baatezu is complete bullshit,in my opinion. They are literally made from the raw stuff of Evil and Chaos/Law respectively. They perfectly embody their respective alignments.
Chris Avellone would disagree with you:

Y1ESaxo.jpg


Succubi are a lesser Tanar'ri in the Planescape campaign setting.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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All this stuff are way too high for a player's agency, especially in PnP.
As I said, it'd be Deus Ex Machina. Ergo, not something from the player, but from the DM.

Then again, if you're talking a high level mage, a lot of bizarre things are technically possible.

https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Programmed_Amnesia
This particular spell was the last and most powerful spell developed by the archmentalist Rheizom. It allows the wizard to selectively destroy, alter, or implant memories in the subject creature as he sees fit. He can completely reprogram a character, inventing a new persona, a new alignment, and assigning a new class as he sees fit. Only sentient beings can be affected; if the subject is not human, humanoid, or demihuman, he gains a +4 bonus on his saving throw.

Chris Avellone would disagree with you:
This was Deus Ex Machina. Most players aren't going to be able to hire Baatezu to mind rape succubae into perfect (hopefully no longer soul sucking) wives.

Sounds like an interesting business idea for an enterprising Baatezu though. :M
 
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Alex

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(...snip)

As for plant spells, Age Plant can advance or decrease the age of a plant. There are more, but I don't feel like going through nearly 2,000 pages of spells for AD&D 2E.
I think his point was making a plant grow just by "willing" it (however the hell someone is supposed to do that. I mean, are you supposed to just imagine it? Just imagine it and focus very hard? But nevermind that).

The whole willing and believing in stuff in Torment is something that is much less pronounced in the original campaign setting. Sure, this is important in some parts, like how border towns survive, or how faction members develop. But there is in the setting a bit of the implication this is more supposed to be a background stuff rather than letting the players do wisdom rolls to make spells they don't know or even have access to happen.

And yes, of course the DM can ignore that and run the setting pretty much how it was presented in PS:T, but that is besides the point of what the setting proposed, I think.

(...snip)
Y1ESaxo.jpg

(snip...)

I think you just killed Fall From Grace for Jarl Frank.
 

JamesDixon

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I think his point was making a plant grow just by "willing" it (however the hell someone is supposed to do that. I mean, are you supposed to just imagine it? Just imagine it and focus very hard? But nevermind that).

The whole willing and believing in stuff in Torment is something that is much less pronounced in the original campaign setting. Sure, this is important in some parts, like how border towns survive, or how faction members develop. But there is in the setting a bit of the implication this is more supposed to be a background stuff rather than letting the players do wisdom rolls to make spells they don't know or even have access to happen.

PST doesn't have psionics in it which AD&D 2E does. It's there in Spelljammer and Dark Sun. Silva is trying to claim that a game made 20 odd years ago is more in depth than the pen and paper RPG. That's laughable. If anything PST is extremely limited and you have zero agency in what happens. If the developers and writers didn't think of it you can't do it.

I get a kick out of people that haven't played the pen and paper RPG telling me, a guy that's played it since 1984, that I'm wrong. The only person on this forum that has MORE knowledge about OD&D/AD&D is Zed Duke of Banville and he's earned my respect because of him debating me with facts.

For the record this is the spell list for PST.

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/pc/planescape/mage.shtml

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/pc/planescape/priest.shtml

Here's the Wizard's Spell Compendium Volumes 1-4 and the Priest's Spell Compendium Volumes 1-3 links that have ALL of the AD&D 2E spells.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_One

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Two

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Three

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Four

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_One

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Two

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Three

Compare that to AD&D 2E having nearly 2,000 pages of priest and wizard spells that encompassed everything ever published from 1975 till 1995. That's 20 years worth of spells and there is no way that you're going to fit them into 16.5 MB file size.
 
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Indeed, lots of things the Nameless One does is impossible in the tabletop setting, like changing one's alignment so fluidly, willing a plant to grow in a matter of seconds or a being out of existence.
TNO was beyond a special case though. He's Bigby - or whatever name they gave him when they had to cuck out of calling him Bigby.

He's an immortal super-wizard who's forgotten more than most mages have ever known about magic and the planes.
 

Silva

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(...snip)

As for plant spells, Age Plant can advance or decrease the age of a plant. There are more, but I don't feel like going through nearly 2,000 pages of spells for AD&D 2E.
I think his point was making a plant grow just by "willing" it (however the hell someone is supposed to do that. I mean, are you supposed to just imagine it? Just imagine it and focus very hard? But nevermind that).

The whole willing and believing in stuff in Torment is something that is much less pronounced in the original campaign setting. Sure, this is important in some parts, like how border towns survive, or how faction members develop. But there is in the setting a bit of the implication this is more supposed to be a background stuff rather than letting the players do wisdom rolls to make spells they don't know or even have access to happen.

And yes, of course the DM can ignore that and run the setting pretty much how it was presented in PS:T, but that is besides the point of what the setting proposed, I think.
This, yeah.

The nearest one can get to what the NO does in the tabletop canon is a high level Signer (the solipsists faction) as per the Factol Manifesto sourcebook, and even then under strict behaviourial code and experience, which is not the case of NO.

TNO was beyond a special case though. He's Bigby - or whatever name they gave him when they had to cuck out of calling him Bigby.

He's an immortal super-wizard who's forgotten more than most mages have ever known about magic and the planes.
While your point makes some sense, it seems a stretch that a being can bend the planes to his/her will when not even the gods/powers can. I think the more lucid answer at this point is simply acknowledge that the videogame canon deviates from the tabletop, and adopt it to the tabletop next time you play, if you appreciate that - I know I would.
 

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The nearest one can get to what the NO does in the tabletop canon

I hate to break it to you but PST is not canon. It's an adventure by BioWare. See canon is not a thing in AD&D or D&D when it came to video games. The only time it did was if there were adventures released for OD&D/AD&D that had the same storyline. Even then those are optional since the DM has final say over what happens in his version of the world he's running.

There's plenty that players can do in the pen and paper because it's unlimited to what the DM and his group wants to do. You're stuck to a prewritten story confined within 16.5 MB of data. In fact, PST is so limited that you can't actually call it a proper RPG. It's interactive fiction and nothing more.

I love your delusion man in thinking that BioWare is better then a living breathing DM with living players. The copium is just wonderful.

:hmmm:
 

JamesDixon

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I think the more lucid answer at this point is simply acknowledge that the videogame canon deviates from the tabletop, and adopt it to the tabletop next time you play, if you appreciate that - I know I would.
Hey guys Silva says that PST spells are superior to AD&D 2E's spell list.

For the record this is the spell list for PST.

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/pc/planescape/mage.shtml

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/pc/planescape/priest.shtml

Here's the Wizard's Spell Compendium Volumes 1-4 and the Priest's Spell Compendium Volumes 1-3 links that have ALL of the AD&D 2E spells.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_One

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Two

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Three

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Four

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_One

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Two

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Priest's_Spell_Compendium_Volume_Three

Oh you can only play one campaign since there aren't any more new stories for PST.

Your characters can only do the actions that BioWare created.

PST>ALL AD&D according to this moron.
 

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While your point makes some sense, it seems a stretch that a being can bend the planes to his/her will when not even the gods/powers can.
Bending the planes vs bending things within the planes, I guess? Not sure what you mean here.

For example, Curst isn't being bent by will, but by your actions influencing the beliefs of others. You aren't rearranging the planes with your own will, you're at best affecting things within them, just as anyone in the setting would through their beliefs and actions, only with an OP will and understanding of magic skewing it to an extreme in some cases.

TNO's story was there to show extreme examples of how belief affected the planes. I don't think many players are going to be able to wipe their names from existence, create a fortress of shadows or turn themselves into undying immortals either. That wasn't the point. Showing players something any player can do isn't always the point.

You can also look at things like Irenicus' dungeon in BG2. It would take extreme levels of larp for a player to get such a setup. Not even sure it's possible. Yoshimo being under a Geas spell is possible. Duergar servants maybe. A cloning lab possible. I guess the dryad enslavement thing is possible, sort of. Not sure about having your own personal portal to whatever air plane, mephit summoning portals, cambion imprisonment machines or whatever. And probably not soul manipulation machines where you can steal the divinity of a bhaalspawn.

Like with characters like Vecna, not everything a player sees done in D&D is going to be possible for them normally within the ruleset. That doesn't mean it's not possible within the world though.
Her feet...
Are not shown. Those are the tops of her boots.
 

NecroLord

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While Grace and her personality are a refreshing change from the usual "bang your brains out and then corrupt and feast on your soul" succubi,it's never clear what made her so cerebral and even chaste for a Tanar'ri meant to embody dark and corrupting passion.
It is very christian-like to believe in redemption(which was made possible by Jesus Christ). In D&D it can make for interesting adventures and stories. However,redeeming Tanar'ri and Baatezu is complete bullshit,in my opinion. They are literally made from the raw stuff of Evil and Chaos/Law respectively. They perfectly embody their respective alignments.
Chris Avellone would disagree with you:

Y1ESaxo.jpg


Succubi are a lesser Tanar'ri in the Planescape campaign setting.
They are rather low on the Tanar'ri hierarchy,though that doesn't make them any less effective at what they do.


I think it is technically possible to "redeem" them. It would just require completely nonsense levels of deus ex machina - especially for abysal lords and the like. To the point that it's not an actual redemption story, but really just a weird science project

"Excuse me,Mr. Demogorgon,do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior,Pelor?"

Mr. Demogorgon...
1627210818573-png.141151


Perhaps the intervention of a very powerful deity,yeah,but the Tanar'ri perfectly exemplify the mad,brutal,all consuming passion of Chaotic Evil. To separate them from their alignment should be akin to an extremely traumatizing experience,one that would most likely kill them. The lore on the Abyss(paging Zed Duke of Banville to say something about it,since he seems very knowledgeable about all matters D&D) always said that it literally spawns those foul demons nearly non stop,almost like a factory. The Gaping Maw of the Abyss is a terrible thing to behold.
 

Alex

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(...snip)
Perhaps the intervention of a very powerful deity,yeah,but the Tanar'ri perfectly exemplify the mad,brutal,all consuming passion of Chaotic Evil. To separate them from their alignment should be akin to an extremely traumatizing experience,one that would most likely kill them. The lore on the Abyss(paging Zed Duke of Banville to say something about it,since he seems very knowledgeable about all matters D&D) always said that it literally spawns those foul demons nearly non stop,almost like a factory. The Gaping Maw of the Abyss is a terrible thing to behold.
I've said this before, but I will say it again. I think this just breaks the setting. If it is at all possible, it should actually be happening all the time, since the planes are supposed to be infinitely big and many of them have been around for aeons. If outsiders can just get tired of their alignment, it would happen eventually. It would happen eventually multiple times to the same outsider.

I think the setting work more sane if you consider an outsider not a person wearing a cloth of his alignment. He is not basically a human that is immortal, powerful, and decided, for now at least, to be good or bad, or neutral, or lawful, or what have you. Much like elementals are not something wearing the element, they are the very element. So outer plane natives should be literally their alignment personified. They literary don't have the ability to become something else. This clashes with the whole petitioner thing, but you could argue that once a petitioner raises to a certain status, his very being is changed in an irreversible way.

Of course, feel free to do what you want in your game, but this is how I see the issue.
 

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