Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

[JamesDixon]

JamesDixon , my point was about the power of will/belief and how it affects the planes as seen in the videogame. And only that.

Calm down and stop the hysteria you faggot.

Your point is already addressed in the pen and paper RPG. What BioWaste did was not unique in the slightest. Shall you continue with your stupidity? I'm enjoying you making a fool of yourself in your ignorance of what tabletop AD&D/D&D is like. You've never played a single game I bet.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

While Grace and her personality are a refreshing change from the usual "bang your brains out and then corrupt and feast on your soul" succubi,it's never clear what made her so cerebral and even chaste for a Tanar'ri meant to embody dark and corrupting passion.

Basically, the baatezu tormented her until it broke her mind and caused her to see the world differently, and to become a different person.

"Yes, she sold me to the baatezu, the blood enemies of the tanar'ri. I think she rather expected that they would kill me -- despite her knowledge of other subjects, she knows little of their culture and the delight they take in tormenting others."

"In answer to your question, I will tell you this: the baatezu are not human. Their lusts lie in power, not for the flesh, and they care nothing for raping or rutting as humans do when they hold another human prisoner. The torments of the baatezu are far more subtle and far more damaging than *any* violation of the flesh, and the scars last far longer. Is that what you wished to know?"

She goes on to say that that's basically how her priest-like powers work. Her faith is in the multiverse and the strength of her beliefs allows her to manifest powers.

Maybe this sounds non-canon to you, and maybe it is to a degree, but faith/belief allows for it in the pnp setting.

Planewalker's Handbook:

Faction membership has its rewards and restrictions.
Those completely devoted to their group’s philosophy gain
certain abilities, proving again that the planes are fueled by
belief. (Most namers have the same basic abilities, and gain
more skills as they move up in rank.) If a factioneer ever
loses his convictions, he loses the special abilities - even if
he’s still technically a member of the faction. See, the power
ain’t in the name; it’s in the faith. That’s something that
eludes a good many berks. Some of them just pretend to
have the special abilities of their factions, hoping to conceal
their deep-rooted lack of faith.

Even rarer are are those bloods who focus their faith without the aid of the faction and gain the special abilities on their own. This luxury should be reserved for NPCs only. As noted above, power flows from belief, not membership.

This last bit is an NPC only thing though. The personal belief system for players in the setting is focused around either asking the DM questions or automatic successes on whatever rolls, not granting them custom faction powers or whatever.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

when they had to cuck out of calling him Bigby

Context?

If you look in the game files, there's an alternate text for the Pillar of Skulls reveal where it says one of your names was Bigby. Of course, in the game it says something else. MCA said that the true name was never revealed in the game, but he may or may not have meant this.

"NO. YOU BEAR MANY NAMES; EACH HAS LEFT THEIR SCARS ON YOUR FLESH:"

"LOST ONE... IMMORTAL ONE... INCARNATION'S END... MAN OF A THOUSAND DEATHS... THE ONE DOOMED TO LIFE... RESTLESS ONE... ONE OF MANY... THE ONE WHOM LIFE HOLDS PRISONER... THE BRINGER OF SHADOWS... THE WOUNDED ONE... MISERY-BRINGER... YEMETH..."

The alternate text calls you "Bigby" instead of Yemeth. I remember seeing it when I opened the exe in a text editor many years ago, iirc.

There are so many layers to this game, it's unreal. And I personally disagree with MCA's take that TNO was not Zerthimon. I think the way the evil incarnation was even able to make a fake zerth circle for Dak'kon was because he was actually remembering being Zerthimon without realizing it.

 

[Alex]

While Grace and her personality are a refreshing change from the usual "bang your brains out and then corrupt and feast on your soul" succubi,it's never clear what made her so cerebral and even chaste for a Tanar'ri meant to embody dark and corrupting passion.

Basically, the baatezu tormented her until it broke her mind and caused her to see the world differently, and to become a different person.

"Yes, she sold me to the baatezu, the blood enemies of the tanar'ri. I think she rather expected that they would kill me -- despite her knowledge of other subjects, she knows little of their culture and the delight they take in tormenting others."

"In answer to your question, I will tell you this: the baatezu are not human. Their lusts lie in power, not for the flesh, and they care nothing for raping or rutting as humans do when they hold another human prisoner. The torments of the baatezu are far more subtle and far more damaging than *any* violation of the flesh, and the scars last far longer. Is that what you wished to know?"

She goes on to say that that's basically how her priest-like powers work. Her faith is in the multiverse and the strength of her beliefs allows her to manifest powers.

Maybe this sounds non-canon to you, and maybe it is to a degree, but faith/belief allows for it in the pnp setting.

Planewalker's Handbook:

Faction membership has its rewards and restrictions.
Those completely devoted to their group’s philosophy gain
certain abilities, proving again that the planes are fueled by
belief. (Most namers have the same basic abilities, and gain
more skills as they move up in rank.) If a factioneer ever
loses his convictions, he loses the special abilities - even if
he’s still technically a member of the faction. See, the power
ain’t in the name; it’s in the faith. That’s something that
eludes a good many berks. Some of them just pretend to
have the special abilities of their factions, hoping to conceal
their deep-rooted lack of faith.

Even rarer are are those bloods who focus their faith without the aid of the faction and gain the special abilities on their own. This luxury should be reserved for NPCs only. As noted above, power flows from belief, not membership.

This last bit is an NPC only thing though. The personal belief system for players in the setting is focused around either asking the DM questions or automatic successes on whatever rolls, not granting them custom faction powers or whatever.

So... DM... my character really believes... that he should get access to all spheres.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

So... DM... my character really believes... that he should get access to all spheres.

Is your character a super special NPC, like TNO effectively was? Then too bad.

I think that anything your character has the ability to roll for could be affected by the belief point system, but it's not going to create skills out of nowhere for you. Unless it's faction-specific skills, that is.

It's not like belief can do literally anything. The handbook even says that gathering a bunch of people to "believe away" the LoP wouldn't do anything but get them killed. It's not going to make a ham sandwich out of thin air. But it is power and can affect the planes, change people's natures, give special abilities or insights.

The various deities derive much of their power from the belief of their followers, for example. It's a powerful force in the planes, but not one just anyone can harness.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

when they had to cuck out of calling him Bigby

Context?

TNO was beyond a special case though. He's Bigby - or whatever name they gave him when they had to cuck out of calling him Bigby.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)

The various deities derive much of their power from the belief of their followers, for example. It's a powerful force in the planes, but not one just anyone can harness.

Just as an aside, I've never liked this idea. Seems too much like a silly democratic piece of world building. Deities shouldn't get their power from their faithful, it should be the other way around.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

deities get their power from Ao
I guess it would be one of the earlier examples of a 'multiverse'? I'd have to go dig, but I'm almost certain Ao is said to be an overgod or something of all deities.

[edit]
and the exact placement of planescape into its own campaign setting is itself problematic as being part of the cosmology its tentacles touch everything.

but I'm by no means an expert on planescape stuff

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

deities get their power from Ao

Don't they get their domains/portfolios from Ao and their followers dictate their actual power level? In other words, Ao shapes the way they are allowed to use their power, but their power isn't from him directly?

I was basing that on this from the handbook:

And look at the powers - even they ultimately rely on their worshipers' belief in them for their own might. Take that away, and a power'll find himself floating on the Astral with the rest of the dead gods.

There was an example of this in Dead Gods.

The power's death has been a slow, painful one. As Badir's followers fell, the energy of their belief winked out like snuffed candles. As whole prime-material worlds were lost to his influence, Badir grew weaker and weaker, and the god now suffers in his last moments of life.

and the exact placement of planescape into its own campaign setting is itself problematic as being part of the cosmology its tentacles touch everything.

but I'm by no means an expert on planescape stuff

Me neither. I just go off very old memories and searching up info online or in the manuals I have.

For example, On Hallowed Ground has some relevant bits:

On followers and belief

About Ao specifically

 

[NecroLord]

deities get their power from Ao
I guess it would be one of the earlier examples of a 'multiverse'? I'd have to go dig, but I'm almost certain Ao is said to be an overgod or something of all deities.

[edit]
and the exact placement of planescape into its own campaign setting is itself problematic as being part of the cosmology its tentacles touch everything.

but I'm by no means an expert on planescape stuff

Ao is only the Overdeity of the Forgotten Realms setting.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

deities get their power from Ao
I guess it would be one of the earlier examples of a 'multiverse'? I'd have to go dig, but I'm almost certain Ao is said to be an overgod or something of all deities.

[edit]
and the exact placement of planescape into its own campaign setting is itself problematic as being part of the cosmology its tentacles touch everything.

but I'm by no means an expert on planescape stuff

Ao is only the Overdeity of the Forgotten Realms setting.

which is inherently entangled with planescape

 

[BruceVC]

It is very christian-like to believe in redemption(which was made possible by Jesus Christ). In D&D it can make for interesting adventures and stories. However,redeeming Tanar'ri and Baatezu is complete bullshit,in my opinion. They are literally made from the raw stuff of Evil and Chaos/Law respectively. They perfectly embody their respective alignments.
Anyway,Sir Tolkien was indeed troubled by the nature of Evil in his works. Remember Melkor and how he screwed up the music of the Ainur by wanting to insert his own theme in it. One might say that Evil began when the greatest "son" of Eru Iluvatar turned his back on him and rebelled out of pride. Like in the Bible,Lucifer,the brightest of all,turned his back on God.
Pride is the worst of all of the cardinal sins. It is esentially turning your back on God.
Orcs were brutal,savage tools. They were made Evil,not born Evil.

Yes so the idea of Tanar'ri or Baatezu becoming good through an exciting redemption arc is unrealistic unless you have some divine or magical intervention like a Helm of Alignment Change

But I have always wondered if you find Fallen Devas why cant you find Tanar'ri or Baatezu who have become good somehow?

 

[NecroLord]

But I have always wondered if you find Fallen Devas why cant you find Tanar'ri or Baatezu who have become good somehow?

Evil is more seductive and far,far harder to get rid of than Good. Most of the Tanar'ri and Baatezu have become so accustomed to the pain and tortures suffered at the hands of other more powerful fiends that they won't have it any other way. They want to return it tenfold and gain more power for themselves. Redemption? Probably an alien and laughable concept to any self respecting Balor and Pit Fiend.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Yes so the idea of Tanar'ri or Baatezu becoming good through an exciting redemption arc is unrealistic unless you have some divine or magical intervention like a Helm of Alignment Change

As I've said before, that's not redemption. That's brainwashing.

A real redemption arc involves emotions, reason, things that change the person from within. The person's reasons, emotions, etc., not the brainwashed persona you've created to manipulate them into doing what you personally want.

But I have always wondered if you find Fallen Devas why cant you find Tanar'ri or Baatezu who have become good somehow?

Because it's easier to fall than to fly.

In Fall-From-Grace's case, she was warped and twisted by cruel tortures. She may have slid upward on the alignment scale, but it was an act of evil that was ultimately responsible for it. She had some choice in the matter, but it's not a natural thing that occurred by any means.

You should really read up on the rather overpowered spell I mentioned earlier. Especially the last bit here:
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Programmed_Amnesia

Also, be aware that destroying a creature’s personality and replacing it with one more amenable to the wizard’s designs is never a good act.

Manipulation isn't a good thing. It isn't redemption. It's a sociopathic act that denies free will.

In Fall-From-Grace's eyes, she wasn't "redeemed". She fell.

FFG: "I have fallen from my people... some would say risen from my people, perhaps, but 'fall' *feels* more right to me. Does that make sense?"

TNO: "Yes, it does. After all, 'fall' carries with it an underlying sense of loss."

FFG: "Yes... perhaps that is why it felt as it did. I... came to terms with the loss long ago, but the name has remained."

Though the story of how she "came to terms" with this fall and grew as a person is a sort of redemption arc, it isn't a story of guilt or repentance from past wrongs, but philosophical enlightenment.


Of course, if you really want a real redemption arc (and I know you do) that's within the rules, then a 3rd edition succubus is your best bet. Since 3E changed the lore and made all succubae fallen angels of love, and gave a path of atonement to them.
https://ia903109.us.archive.org/8/items/DragonMagazine260_201801/Dragon Magazine 417.pdf

Redeemed Succubi Even though all succubi long for the paradise that Asmodeus promised them, they would sooner remain masters of their own way than return to bondage under the gods. A rare few succubi, however, truly regret their betrayal and supplicate themselves before the gods in hopes of redemption. The path to redemption is difficult for succubi to tread, and it leads to a destination that precious few can reach. First the succubus must discover a way to leave the Nine Hells. Then she must walk the path of atonement. An atoning succubus must live a chaste and virtuous life, countering every deed she committed against the gods with seven good deeds. Since devils were created near the beginning of time, a succubus’s atonement might require centuries to complete. Once a succubus answers seven times for each betrayal, she is redeemed before the gods. In all but the rarest of circumstances in which a succubus is restored as an angel, her form does not change. She is released from her sentence in the Nine Hells, and sometimes she is allowed to return to the astral dominions that the succubi long ago departed. The succubus philosopher Fall-From-Grace is an example of a redeemed succubus; she serves as the proprietor of the Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts in the city of Sigil.

I'm not super into 3E, but I listen to lore videos on YouTube at times, and new editions inevitably get mixed in.

FFG is not a "redeemed succubus" as this author suggests though. She isn't stated to have answered for anything or repented at all in the game.

 

[BruceVC]

Yes so the idea of Tanar'ri or Baatezu becoming good through an exciting redemption arc is unrealistic unless you have some divine or magical intervention like a Helm of Alignment Change

As I've said before, that's not redemption. That's brainwashing.

A real redemption arc involves emotions, reason, things that change the person from within. The person's reasons, emotions, etc., not the brainwashed persona you've created to manipulate them into doing what you personally want.

But I have always wondered if you find Fallen Devas why cant you find Tanar'ri or Baatezu who have become good somehow?

Because it's easier to fall than to fly.

In Fall-From-Grace's case, she was warped and twisted by cruel tortures. She may have slid upward on the alignment scale, but it was an act of evil that was ultimately responsible for it. She had some choice in the matter, but it's not a natural thing that occurred by any means.

You should really read up on the rather overpowered spell I mentioned earlier. Especially the last bit here:
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Programmed_Amnesia

Also, be aware that destroying a creature’s personality and replacing it with one more amenable to the wizard’s designs is never a good act.

Manipulation isn't a good thing. It isn't redemption. It's a sociopathic act that denies free will.

In Fall-From-Grace's eyes, she wasn't "redeemed". She fell.

FFG: "I have fallen from my people... some would say risen from my people, perhaps, but 'fall' *feels* more right to me. Does that make sense?"

TNO: "Yes, it does. After all, 'fall' carries with it an underlying sense of loss."

FFG: "Yes... perhaps that is why it felt as it did. I... came to terms with the loss long ago, but the name has remained."

Though the story of how she "came to terms" with this fall and grew as a person is a sort of redemption arc, it isn't a story of guilt or repentance from past wrongs, but philosophical enlightenment.


Of course, if you really want a real redemption arc (and I know you do) that's within the rules, then a 3rd edition succubus is your best bet. Since 3E changed the lore and made all succubae fallen angels of love, and gave a path of atonement to them.
https://ia903109.us.archive.org/8/items/DragonMagazine260_201801/Dragon Magazine 417.pdf

Redeemed Succubi Even though all succubi long for the paradise that Asmodeus promised them, they would sooner remain masters of their own way than return to bondage under the gods. A rare few succubi, however, truly regret their betrayal and supplicate themselves before the gods in hopes of redemption. The path to redemption is difficult for succubi to tread, and it leads to a destination that precious few can reach. First the succubus must discover a way to leave the Nine Hells. Then she must walk the path of atonement. An atoning succubus must live a chaste and virtuous life, countering every deed she committed against the gods with seven good deeds. Since devils were created near the beginning of time, a succubus’s atonement might require centuries to complete. Once a succubus answers seven times for each betrayal, she is redeemed before the gods. In all but the rarest of circumstances in which a succubus is restored as an angel, her form does not change. She is released from her sentence in the Nine Hells, and sometimes she is allowed to return to the astral dominions that the succubi long ago departed. The succubus philosopher Fall-From-Grace is an example of a redeemed succubus; she serves as the proprietor of the Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts in the city of Sigil.

I'm not super into 3E, but I listen to lore videos on YouTube at times, and new editions inevitably get mixed in.

FFG is not a "redeemed succubus" as this author suggests though. She isn't stated to have answered for anything or repented at all in the game.

Great post and very informative

I like that 3rd edition lore, its a good idea for succubi " redemption " arcs and yes I do like my Romance\redemption stories as an underlying part of a game or campaign. I wouldn't make it the main story but just part of it

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

(...snip)

(snip...)

I think you just killed Fall From Grace for Jarl Frank.

Her feet...

Those are cuffs at the top of her boots; check the location of her knees.

Perhaps the intervention of a very powerful deity,yeah,but the Tanar'ri perfectly exemplify the mad,brutal,all consuming passion of Chaotic Evil. To separate them from their alignment should be akin to an extremely traumatizing experience,one that would most likely kill them. The lore on the Abyss(paging Zed Duke of Banville to say something about it,since he seems very knowledgeable about all matters D&D) always said that it literally spawns those foul demons nearly non stop,almost like a factory. The Gaping Maw of the Abyss is a terrible thing to behold.

By an odd coincidence, I've just completed my Abyss entry in the Stable Diffusion & D&D thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/bringing-d-d-ad-d-campaign-settings-to-life-with-stable-diffusion.144466/post-8178890

 

[BruceVC]

Yes so the idea of Tanar'ri or Baatezu becoming good through an exciting redemption arc is unrealistic unless you have some divine or magical intervention like a Helm of Alignment Change

As I've said before, that's not redemption. That's brainwashing.

A real redemption arc involves emotions, reason, things that change the person from within. The person's reasons, emotions, etc., not the brainwashed persona you've created to manipulate them into doing what you personally want.

There are nuances and different ways you can define what the Helm of Alignment Change does. And some of these outcomes are actually positive and not what I would consider brainwashing which is a negative consequence

And I will use the example of the Dragon magazine campaign I used in about 1990-1992 which was the first time I came across redemption ( it wasn't called that in those days )arcs and similar interesting and complex ways to interpret alignment and how the D&D\Forgotten Realms reflects on it

I have mentioned this particular campaign before but this time I will go into more detail to make my point

In summary two good elven brothers were adventurers for years but one day came across a tomb and when they were exploring it they encountered a Greater Succubi who killed them but turned them into Vampires as part of what she can do

For years the two brothers continued to be adventurers but they were evil Vampires so they killed innocents and hated good people as part of there new personalities. But then on an adventure while they were looting some treasure one of the bothers accidently put on a Helm of AC

He now became good and lived in Waterdeep, or another city in the North, but he never killed innocents and he had mortal friends who would give him blood willingly when he needed it for survival. He owned an Inn but he lived a normal life as a " good " Vampire but he always felt guilt about his evil time as Vampire and he lived his life studiously and constantly to redeem what he did in the past. Lets call it a permanent redemption arc because his entire lifestyle changed

So the Helm ended his evil ways but it didnt brainwash him because he use to be good. But his evil brother did consider it brainwashing because he considered the Vampire lifestyle as there destiny and what they are

But the point being the Helm of AC can be used in ways where its a legitimate and positive change. It depends on the circumstances of the person or creature?

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

There are nuances and different ways you can define what the Helm of Alignment Change does. And some of these outcomes are actually positive and not what I would consider brainwashing which is a negative consequence

It's basically the argument that kidnapping and raping a woman is ok because eventually she succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome and "fell in love" with you.

Ends don't justify means. As I said, this is a sociopathic mentality.

And I will use the example of the Dragon magazine campaign I used in about 1990-1992 which was the first time I came across redemption ( it wasn't called that in those days )arcs and similar interesting and complex ways to interpret alignment and how the D&D\Forgotten Realms reflects on it

I have mentioned this particular campaign before but this time I will go into more detail to make my point

In summary two good elven brothers were adventurers for years but one day came across a tomb and when they were exploring it they encountered a Greater Succubi who killed them but turned them into Vampires as part of what she can do

Side note, this is from Lords Of Darkness 1E, released in 1988.

A succubus' kiss no longer turns players into vampires since 2e, and I'm not aware of this ability being mentioned in any other text. The monster manual mentions only the level drain.

So the Helm ended his evil ways but it didnt brainwash him because he use to be good.

Incorrect.

The helm did brainwash him. It's how the helm works.

I don't think the text described either of them as good, let alone lawful good.

About 400 years ago Jonathon and Jeremiah Morningmist were twin high elven brothers in an adventuring party that stumbled upon ancient ruins leading to a cavern complex deep within the bowels of the land. The complex was filled with treasure. However, Jonathon, a headstrong fighter, and Jeremiah, a quick-tempered mage, soon learned their new-found wealth had a price.

The dank complex was home to a vampire, which made short work of Jeremiah and several members of the adventuring band. And as fate would have it, a succubus, who surprised the remainder of the party as it fled through the long twisting corridors, killed Jonathon.

The helm didn't reverse Jon's alignment change due to becoming a vampire, it brainwashed him with the opposite alignment of his then Chaotic Evil alignment.

You may view this as a net benefit, but it was a brainwashing. One that was his own fault for putting on the helm he'd stolen off the people he murdered, but still a brainwashing.

But the point being the Helm of AC can be used in ways where its a legitimate and positive change. It depends on the circumstances of the person or creature?

Brainwashing is brainwashing no matter how you slice it. It's denying the fundamental rights of a person to choose who they are.

In this case, assuming the succubus forced her kiss on Jon, you could argue that it took away his freedom of choice and forced him to be evil. But without knowing what his original alignment was, forcing his alignment to change to Lawful Good doesn't seem that different. A Wish spell to restore his actual alignment would be better. I can only see an alignment change from the helm as neutral at best.

That said, you aren't talking about restoring anyone's alignment. You're talking about forcing someone to change who they are "for the better" (read: so you can "romance" them, as you put it). Using magic to force this change for that reason is clearly an evil act.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

it's worth remembering that gygax had an *ahem* pragmatic view on good and evil and to use alignment properly you have to judge it objectively not subjectively

As I have pointed out at times, a Paladin might well execute a group of captives after they have converted from their former (Evil) alignment to Lawful Good, for that act saves their sould, prevents them from slipping back into error.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.

The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...

Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.

Cheers,
Gary

Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are all terms of art.

 

[mondblut]

Ao is only the Overdeity of the Forgotten Realms setting.

which is inherently entangled with planescape

Which is a tiny weeny part of prime material plane which makes a small part of planescape.

Think of Ao as dictator of Nicaragua, while great outer planar powers are board of directors of Apple and McDonalds. Technically, he has a power to keep Apple and McDonalds out of Nicaragua, but outside of Nicaragua, nobody gives a fuck about him.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Ao is only the Overdeity of the Forgotten Realms setting.

which is inherently entangled with planescape

Which is a tiny weeny part of prime material plane which makes a small part of planescape.

Think of Ao as dictator of Nicaragua, while great outer planar powers are board of directors of Apple and McDonalds. Technically, he can keep them away from Nicaragua, but outside of Nicaragua, nobody gives a fuck about him.

You'd be right, except that Ao is clearly different and above the matters of deities. Unlike essentially every other greater power(whatever the specific part of a plane calls them there), he requires nobody to worship him.

 

[BruceVC]

There are nuances and different ways you can define what the Helm of Alignment Change does. And some of these outcomes are actually positive and not what I would consider brainwashing which is a negative consequence

It's basically the argument that kidnapping and raping a woman is ok because eventually she succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome and "fell in love" with you.

Ends don't justify means. As I said, this is a sociopathic mentality.

And I will use the example of the Dragon magazine campaign I used in about 1990-1992 which was the first time I came across redemption ( it wasn't called that in those days )arcs and similar interesting and complex ways to interpret alignment and how the D&D\Forgotten Realms reflects on it

I have mentioned this particular campaign before but this time I will go into more detail to make my point

In summary two good elven brothers were adventurers for years but one day came across a tomb and when they were exploring it they encountered a Greater Succubi who killed them but turned them into Vampires as part of what she can do

Side note, this is from Lords Of Darkness 1E, released in 1988.

A succubus' kiss no longer turns players into vampires since 2e, and I'm not aware of this ability being mentioned in any other text. The monster manual mentions only the level drain.

Spoiler

So the Helm ended his evil ways but it didnt brainwash him because he use to be good.

Incorrect.

The helm did brainwash him. It's how the helm works.

I don't think the text described either of them as good, let alone lawful good.

About 400 years ago Jonathon and Jeremiah Morningmist were twin high elven brothers in an adventuring party that stumbled upon ancient ruins leading to a cavern complex deep within the bowels of the land. The complex was filled with treasure. However, Jonathon, a headstrong fighter, and Jeremiah, a quick-tempered mage, soon learned their new-found wealth had a price.

The dank complex was home to a vampire, which made short work of Jeremiah and several members of the adventuring band. And as fate would have it, a succubus, who surprised the remainder of the party as it fled through the long twisting corridors, killed Jonathon.

The helm didn't reverse Jon's alignment change due to becoming a vampire, it brainwashed him with the opposite alignment of his then Chaotic Evil alignment.

You may view this as a net benefit, but it was a brainwashing. One that was his own fault for putting on the helm he'd stolen off the people he murdered, but still a brainwashing.

But the point being the Helm of AC can be used in ways where its a legitimate and positive change. It depends on the circumstances of the person or creature?

Brainwashing is brainwashing no matter how you slice it. It's denying the fundamental rights of a person to choose who they are.

In this case, assuming the succubus forced her kiss on Jon, you could argue that it took away his freedom of choice and forced him to be evil. But without knowing what his original alignment was, forcing his alignment to change to Lawful Good doesn't seem that different. A Wish spell to restore his actual alignment would be better. I can only see an alignment change from the helm as neutral at best.

That said, you aren't talking about restoring anyone's alignment. You're talking about forcing someone to change who they are "for the better" (read: so you can "romance" them, as you put it). Using magic to force this change for that reason is clearly an evil act.

Im really impressed you know this campaign and more importantly you found it, I didnt remember its name and I couldnt find it with my initial Google searches. What I told you was what I remember from 30 years ago, I have a semi-photographic memory for certain events and details in my life but Im surprised I remembered the details at all. So thanks for providing the correct information

You make some good points but Vampires can be any alignment with evil, are you saying Jon was evil before? We dont know his alignment before because its an important part of this debate? Because I thought the Vampire change made him evil....but if not then it changes somethings I need to consider

Zed Duke of Banville and other people who enjoy D&D mechanics and lore

What do you think? Surly if you become a vampire your alignment would change?

 

[mondblut]

You'd be right, except that Ao is clearly different and above the matters of deities. Unlike essentially every other greater power(whatever the specific part of a plane calls them there), he requires nobody to worship him.

It was he who established that nicaraguan brand "Paco's Tacos" and the stolen cell phones repair shop "Banana" need worshipers to keep staying afloat to begin with. He didn't bother to inform his subjects where does his power come from. Maybe Apple and McDonalds pay him off to keep Banana and Paco's Tacos suppressed and unable to break through to the global market. Either way, in Planescape terms he's a nobody.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What do you think? Surly if you become a vampire your alignment would change?

All undead are of negative plane energy, and can not be of neutrality.

following this, undead are always evil

 

[mondblut]

What do you think? Surly if you become a vampire your alignment would change?

Well, Jander Sunstar didn't turn evil, merely a whiny bitch, and he's a canon FR and Ravenloft character.