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Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

Norfleet

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And yes, there are people who literally kill for 'for teh evils'. Worshipers of evil deities, for example. Though in Chaotic Evil characters, killing for fun or because they despise the weak would probably be more common, or Neutral or Lawful Evil characters killing for personal motives.
Those people don't have functioning societies, though. This allows them to do things "for the evulz" because they don't need to form a coherent society with social order that lasts for any meaningful length of time. When you're a crazy cult, you can carve out people's hearts for the evulz. When you're a SOCIETY, you can still do this kind of thing, but it must now be for some kind of socially useful purpose, like making sure the sun will contnue to rise, and stops being some kind of purposeless act of cartoon evil done for the evulz: It is now a good, socially-approved behavior, and it wrong be wrong to do otherwise.

Real terrain doesn't travel to another dimension based on belief. I wish it did. We'd all be rid of shitholes like California overnight.
I dunno about THAT. I mean, we already saw this happen back in 2014 when an entire part of Ukraine transitioned to being part of Russia because the inhabitants decided to believe so, and it might be happening again.

You don't get it. They're not simply changing, they're falling into another plane of existence. The planes have intrinsic alignment. If they didn't, alignments wouldn't gravitate to them. Gate towns like Curst would simply become evil right where they are in the Outlands, not slip into Carceri.
I'm not entirely clear as to these two concepts are separate. Is this any different from a region slipping into another ruler's territory simply because enough of the inhabitants decide they're part of this other country instead, given that planes don't really have formally drawn borders enforced by some kind of interplanar order?

More importantly, regardless of the causality of a plane's given behavior, it simply is what it is: Just because there might be objective planar alignments doesn't mean these labels necessarily have to be "good" or "evil". We just call them evil because we don't like the way they roll.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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there's zero arguments for a lawful neutral/lawful good character to take her at all
Other than being a fool, which is certainly possible and probably true from an objective, non-gameplay meta standpoint.

It's also technically possible that she was merely seen in the area of a murder and blamed because of her race. Being evil doesn't mean you've committed murder, it just means you probably could and would.

Lawfully speaking, if you feel honor bound and someone comes along calling themselves a mercenary who says they want to kill a woman who's just begged you for help, you could feel obligated to defend her. This would require ignorance of the exact role of the Flaming Fist in the area, which is still possible at this point in the game if you had avoided encounters with them. If you're ignorant of Drow ways (they're merely a rumor to most and you've lived in a freaking library your whole life), or if you know of them and aren't willing to judge her by her people's reputation, there can be an argument made to protecting her.

As far as killing the mercenary, you don't actually have to kill him or attack him. He's the one who attacks you, and Viconia can kill him, since she acts independently from the party and will kill him once he's down whether you want her to or not.

You are breaking the law though. Objectively, it's a chaotic act. But I could see the reasoning behind doing an unlawful thing for a semi-lawful reason.

As far as neutral, it's a lot easier to rationalize using the above. I don't say those rationales are correct or even intelligent. Just that they're understandable.

And evil characters might not mind the idea of playing with fire.
 

JamesDixon

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there's a part of the alignment chart specifically for having a society, it's called lawful
hint: lawful evil exists

Even Chaotic Evil has a society for it.

AD&D 2E DMG page 38.

Chaotic Evil: The people are ruled by, and live in fear of, those more powerful than themselves. Local government usually amounts to a series of strongarm bosses who obey the central government out of fear. People look for ways to gain power or keep the power they've got. Assassination is an accepted method of advancement, along with coups, conspiracies, and purges. Adventurers are often used as pawn in political power games, only to be elimination when the adventurers themselves become a threat.

Outright murder in the streets, serial killers, etc... are actively frowned upon in a CE society because it destabilizes everything. Laws exist as a way to still keep society going.
 
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Lawfully speaking, if you feel honor bound and someone comes along calling themselves a mercenary who says they want to kill a woman who's just begged you for help, you could feel obligated to defend her. This would require ignorance of the exact role of the Flaming Fist in the area, which is still possible at this point in the game if you had avoided encounters with them. If you're ignorant of Drow ways (they're merely a rumor to most and you've lived in a freaking library your whole life), or if you know of them and aren't willing to judge her by her people's reputation, there can be an argument made to protecting her.
Is he actually trying to kill her or apprehend her? I can't remember.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Those people don't have functioning societies, though.
The Drow literally have a functioning society. Read what I quoted. They band together for strength even though they're chaotic evil ftmp. They're intelligent enough for that.
When you're a crazy cult, you can carve out people's hearts for the evulz. When you're a SOCIETY, you can still do this kind of thing, but it must now be for some kind of socially useful purpose, like making sure the sun will contnue to rise, and stops being some kind of purposeless act of cartoon evil done for the evulz: It is now a good, socially-approved behavior, and it wrong be wrong to do otherwise.
The Drow are literally a baby murdering spider cult AND a society.

Are you sure you've played D&D? :M
I dunno about THAT. I mean, we already saw this happen back in 2014 when an entire part of Ukraine transitioned to being part of Russia because the inhabitants decided to believe so, and it might be happening again.
Russia is another dimension? Informative.

This is basically the equivalent of California suddenly breaking off of the US, crossing the ocean and linking up with China purely based on beliefs and through no physical or technological effort of anyone involved.
I'm not entirely clear as to these two concepts are separate. Is this any different from a region slipping into another ruler's territory simply because enough of the inhabitants decide they're part of this other country instead, given that planes don't really have formally drawn borders enforced by some kind of interplanar order?
The difference is having your city literally teleported into another dimension, in this case Hell.

In order to cross to another plane, you need a portal. You're basically traveling through to another dimension. Curst had a portal to Carceri, but it wasn't in Carceri. The city basically fell through the portal and into Hell.

More importantly, regardless of the causality of a plane's given behavior, it simply is what it is: Just because there might be objective planar alignments doesn't mean these labels necessarily have to be "good" or "evil". We just call them evil because we don't like the way they roll.
It's not about whether or not you like them. It's about objective, measurable good/evil/law/chaos in terms of belief and actions.

The setting has pre-defined good and evil so that you can't moral fag your way into shades of gray bullshit. It's literally designed to resist your exact line of reasoning, and goes further and builds entire planes of existence based on its philosphy.

You're talking about a game where at one point players got their own LANGUAGE purely from their alignment, and lose the ability to speak in that language simply by changing alignment.

1656566673140.png


This is how far D&D went to prevent the shades of gray interpretation you're advocating.
 
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Kill her. And he says if you hand her over to him, he will kill her.
then the real problem here is that it's just shit design
to the best of my knowledge, the law of the land is not to kill someone accused of a crime
a lawful person would interfere and prevent the murder then apprehend her, turning her over to the proper authorities

[edit]
and arrest the mercenary for attempted murder
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Outright murder in the streets, serial killers, etc... are actively frowned upon in a CE society because it destabilizes everything. Laws exist as a way to still keep society going.
Or even if you don't have actual laws, you still know who not to screw with and how not to screw with them.

You know that getting on the bad side of a Drow warrior house will get you gutted. You know that mocking a spider priestess will get you killed or worse.

There doesn't need to be any law not to steal if you know that stealing from the wrong person will get you enslaved or executed.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Kill her. And he says if you hand her over to him, he will kill her.
then the real problem here is that it's just shit design
to the best of my knowledge, the law of the land is not to kill someone accused of a crime
a lawful person would interfere and prevent the murder then apprehend her, turning her over to the proper authorities

[edit]
and arrest the mercenary for attempted murder
The Flaming Fist are the Keystone Cops of the Forgotten Realms. At least in BG. They attack the player often in the game and for little reason. If you encounter them on the road traveling to Nashkel, they will try to execute you even if you surrender.

I wouldn't call it crap design though. I would call it putting the player in a difficult situation, though maybe not in the most thoughtful of ways. Which is actually good design. Sort of.

As far as the law of the land goes, you've lived in a library your whole life. How would you know either way? You know the Fist are basically the police, or claim to be. That's about it.

You are probably right that you should have been able to turn Viconia in like you could Valygar in BG2 though.
 
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RE: alignment
The wrinkle with alignment has always been the lawful aspect to it. People always get so hung up over good-vs-evil, but that's the easy part. It's objective and well-defined. You might dislike the objective definition, but that does not change its meaning. This is Word Of God from Gygax himself that the moral axis must be judged from a frame of reference. There absolutely cannot be any subjective interpretation as to what this frame of reference is, because certain aspects of (A)D&D rely upon it having a specific definition. Therefore, following this logic, we do not have room to interpret what is good and what is evil. If we ask ourselves, "What is Good?" then we need only look at AD&D's PHB: the Ranger class must be some form of Good, and an Assassin must be some form of Evil.
If we say that a Ranger does things that are Good, we then ask ourselves: well, what does a Ranger actually do? The PHB is surprisingly light on the ranger, giving only a few sentences. But Gygax spoke on this also:
The Ranger class was originally devised by Joe Fischer, then a regular in my D&D game group. I published his initial treatment of the class in The Strategic Review, thereafter revised it and included it in the core game rules. Of course it is apparent that Joe based the class on JRRT’s work and Aragorn.
Aragorn is the prototypical ranger and therefore we can surmise that Aragorn's actions are generally a definition of Good.

We did not need our own interpretation, and there is no room for our own interpretation. Again, morality is well-defined in AD&D.


Lawfulness not so, because by definition it must be subjective not in its definition but in its interpretation.
If a lawful good person refuses to follow the local law because it is evil, are they still lawful? Are you lawful if you only follow and enforce laws you agree with? Would a person living in a land with no laws be considered lawful by default? Are you lawful if you have your own code of laws you live by?
With a lack of a proper answer to any of these, I simply thought of counterexamples as to why they wouldn't be valid.

I cannot accept that Law requires following the ethos of a deity as is somewhat hinted at by the paladin class. Perhaps, that is a valid definition for paladin to some extent, but not overall. An obvious hole here is assuming everyone worships a deity to begin with, when many inhabitants -- non-human creatures(typically ones that pour molten chocolate on their penis) especially so -- are atheistic.
Following a personal moral code, perhaps? But... Would not most people consider Robin Hood to be some interpretation of Chaotic Good? But he follows his own ethos, his own moral code. Nope, not a good fit either.
And so on.

I was never able to find any satisfactory answers to these questions in any of Gygax's(or related) writings. Yes, I went through most of his works including his Q&A posts on forums as he got older(there were hundreds if not thousands.) OD&D Holmes edition is one of the few times it's expanded upon but it left me confused. I suspect these were not Gygax's words and would be quite strange if it were. I have other reasons for disregarding this edition's alignment discussion, not the least being the insistence that all lawful characters must walk up to other people and inform them of their lawfulness... yeah, really.

If, however, you thought you had alignments figured out perfectly, consider this:
Gygax believed if there was some final showdown between the alignment extremes, it would not be Good and Evil fighting against each other as is nearly always depicted. Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil would align to prevent the ascendancy of complete lawfulness.

Refer to The Strategic Review Vol. 2, No. 1(Feb 1976) issue for an article on alignment by Gary Gygax as a starting point if you haven't read it already.
 

JamesDixon

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If a lawful good person refuses to follow the local law because it is evil, are they still lawful?
According to AD&D 2E DMG it's the intent of the laws as modified by the Good, Neutral, and Evil axis. LG societies are ones that have their laws that benefit everyone. LN societies take a neutral view between Good and Evil where justice is truly blind. LE societies are ones that have a myriad of government departments etc... designed to empower selfish people. Remember, Good always looks to be selfless while Evil is selfish.

Back to your question, if a lawful good person refuses to follow a selfish law they are still lawful. They are in essence using jury nullification to ignore bad laws. As long as such refusal is based upon their selfless desire to benefit the majority around them. We can agree that a selfish law only benefits a minority and if a LG follows said law they have their Good Axis moved towards Evil.

Are you lawful if you only follow and enforce laws you agree with?

You ignore the modifier of Good, Neutral, and Evil. Without that modifier this question is a bit like asking how to make ice cream without the cream.

Would a person living in a land with no laws be considered lawful by default?

Lawful on the personal level is a code of honor that looks to help the majority. A good example of this would be Chivalry. That character would be working towards establishing a government and creating a set of laws that help as many people as possible.

Are you lawful if you have your own code of laws you live by?

You answered the question since you have a code of laws that you adhere to that you are definitely lawful.

For review:

Lawful: A set of laws either personal or governmental that everyone abides by. (Group)

Neutral: Has no opinion on laws that are selfless or selfish. Will actively try to maintain a balance between the two.

Chaos: Operate under individualism. (Individual)

Good: Characters seek to help everyone around them and to improve society for all. (Selfless)

Neutral: Cares neither for being selfless or selfish. Will actively try to maintain a balance between the two.

Evil: Selfish and motivated by personal desires above everything. (Selfish)

AD&D 2E has the best descriptions for alignment. It's very easy to understand.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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this depends on how one interprets the definition of Law and Chaos, which were never as coherent in AD&D

Except I'm looking at AD&D 1E & 2E DMGs. They're pretty much identical just with 2E giving a more thorough description.

1E: Law and Chaos: The opposition here is between organized groups and individuals. That is, law dictates that order and organization is necessary and desirable, while chaos holds the opposite view. Law generally supports the group as more important than the individual, while chaos promotes the individual over the group.

2E: I posted it a few pages back.

If you have anything to show the opposite I'm interested.
When Gary Gygax introduced a two-axis alignment system in his article "The Meaning of Law and Chaos in Dungeons & Dragons and their Relationships to Good and Evil" (The Strategic Review #6, February 1976), he presented a list of characteristics to describe each:

Lawful:
  • Reliability
  • Propriety
  • Principled
  • Righteous
  • Regularity
  • Regulation
  • Methodical
  • Uniform
  • Predictable
  • Prescribed Rules
  • Order
Chaotic:
  • Unruly
  • Confusion
  • Turmoil
  • Unrestrained
  • Random
  • Irregular
  • Unmethodical
  • Unpredictable
  • Disordered
  • Lawless
  • Anarchy

This is based more around chaos as randomness and law as predictability than a distinction between freedom-loving and regimented. By the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, Gygax has shifted to viewing preference for organization and the group (versus the individual) as the definition of lawful, where chaotic is preference for freedom and the individual. However, the randomness versus predictability aspect is still present in the AD&D alignment descriptions, and there are also other components that creep into play, such as civilization versus nature. This is also true for the Outer Planes, where the CG plane and the two adjacent ones are the Happy Hunting Grounds (later called the Beastlands), Olympus (Arborea), and Gladsheim (Ysgard) with a nature-orientation versus a civilization-orientation for their LG opposites (though the same distinction doesn't hold for the CE planes versus the LE planes), while the CN plane Limbo is defined by randomness and the LN plane Nirvana (Mechanus) is defined by mechanical determinism.

Since many more writers than Gary Gygax would ultimately make use of his two-axis alignment system, the distinction between law & chaos would be even more muddled, with different authors having different preferences, and possibly even more concepts being introduced.

As I've stated in past discussions, I think each Dungeon Master should choose a more precise and coherent definition of law & chaos that is best suited for his particular campaign setting, trying to reach something as fundamental to the setting as good & evil.
 
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According to AD&D 2E DMG it's the intent of the laws as modified by the Good, Neutral, and Evil axis.
Gygax not only disagrees, he implies the opposite:
" I believe you are confusion[sic] Law with good, however. A Lawful good places LAw foremost [...]"
"As for minions of Good, especially Lawful Good, it seems to me that most people fail to understand that Law if the prime operative word in the consideration of the alignment. They should consider the Mosaic Law for the best example of how rigid and demanding the strict adherants of LG are as the system was devised. Good MUST come from adhering strictly to Law. the corellary is: Law is force. the latter is, of course, a matter of actual fact, while what is good is a subjective thing."
"Lawful good is LAWFUL first, that being the qualifier of Good. The Biblical example in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Mosaic is a good guideline as to how the LG ethos operates."

His mention of mosaic law not once but twice is not some offhanded remark, he says it for a reason. There are many things in the OT one could disagree with on the grounds of Good, but if you pick and choose what you uphold then you are not upholding Mosaic law like some people.

If you still disagree, then I'm not finished:
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct."

It's clear he saw Lawful Good as upholding the entire law, even parts you disagree with.

Lawful on the personal level is a code of honor
You answered the question since you have a code of laws that you adhere to that you are definitely lawful.
Again, Gygax disagrees.
To a person asking: "[...] can my PC claim to be LN by adhering to my own personal code or principle? [...]"
" Law is not personal in society. It is established by members of the society. The Lawful Neutral ethical viewpoint puts adherance to the Law over Good or Evil."

LG societies are ones that have their laws that benefit everyone.
What are laws that benefit everyone? You could ask 100 people this and get 101 different answers.

And again, Gygax disagrees.
" Fairness and equity are likely best represented by Neutral Good. Lawful Good would place Law above its equitable component. Any other alignments will likely consider fairness to[sic] abstract a concept to be a major consideratiom"
With a further explanation of what he implied with `equity`:
" I mean equity in English language sense of being just to all parties concerned."


And if you're curious, yes, part of my post was a gotcha. I spent way too much time trying to figure this out for my own good.


The real answer to my questions are:
It's a fuckin' incomprehensible mess.
...And yes, that was Gygax's answer too. He said it was a mistake to ever include it in the game.
"The debates now make me regret that I ever included the system feature, as it is being taken beyond the pale. Better to have the character's actions speak for their ethics and morality than some letter set."
 

Cael

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there's a part of the alignment chart specifically for having a society, it's called lawful
hint: lawful evil exists

Even Chaotic Evil has a society for it.

AD&D 2E DMG page 38.

Chaotic Evil: The people are ruled by, and live in fear of, those more powerful than themselves. Local government usually amounts to a series of strongarm bosses who obey the central government out of fear. People look for ways to gain power or keep the power they've got. Assassination is an accepted method of advancement, along with coups, conspiracies, and purges. Adventurers are often used as pawn in political power games, only to be elimination when the adventurers themselves become a threat.

Outright murder in the streets, serial killers, etc... are actively frowned upon in a CE society because it destabilizes everything. Laws exist as a way to still keep society going.
Your typical commiecunt nation, where everyone follow the "law" so long as someone significant is watching.
 

JamesDixon

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Zed Duke of Banville and rusty_shackleford

I presented the rules as they stand from AD&D 2E. That's what I'm used to using. You can cite Gary all you like, but it doesn't change one lick of what I said in regards to the last set of Alignment rules from TSR. Take it or leave it matters not to me.

EDIT: Those rules are written by Dave "Zeb" Cook who was at Gary's table and was given the assignment to make AD&D a more cohesive rule set.
 

Poseidon00

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Yes Drow are inherently evil. They have been under the influence of an evil goddess, one more active in this plane than almost any other in the pantheon, for centuries. Current Year Wizards of the Coast are bad lib fanfiction.
 

Volourn

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The Flaming Fist are not police. They are a literal mercenary band that has gained enough power to control a city (Bg). When they proclaim,"I am the law." That is not just a cute tongue in cheek war cry for the game. That is literally the gest of them. They also dont have power anywhere they don't have soldiers. For example the FF have ZERO power in Candlekeep. They have influence and power in small towns like Beregost because there us nobody yo oppose them. They are not paladibs. They are literal mercenaries. Also, I highly doubt vast majority if FR surface cities are worried about having a trial trial gor a driw accused if murder or not You try to arrest/kill the soldier in defense of Vic, you are gonna be seen as guilty, and evil. Aiding drow is frown upon... until now. Real world anti racism is retartet here. For starters, there are black humans in the Realms. They are treated as humans. Drow are not human.

Drow are not born and created evil. However, between the harshness if Lloth and most other drow gods and their society, they are literally brainwashed. In fact, Drizzt's sister was a good example of how this works. Even his father was tainted to the point he *enjoyed* murdering other dyiw and rationalized it as doing them a favor. Lol Drow are not demons and devils. Hell, FFG was shown as a non evil succubus capable of true love FFS. She didn't magically turn into an angel, FYI, simply because her morals changed. She's a succubus. Period.

Alignment is tricky. Take Lawful as the arguments above. Mystra, Azuth, and Helm amongst others are Lawful gods but their viewpoints on what that means varies. A LG dwarf worshipping Moradin has a different (but overlapping) moral system outlook than a LG paladin of Tyr or Torm. A Neutral follower if Tymora is not gonna have the same moral outlook of a Neutral follower of Silvanus for obvious fukkin reasons.

FFS I win again.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I did a play through. Nice to see there are still a few surprises waiting for me.
The game rewarded creative thinking. If you see someone with a mental illness, well, try casting heal on them. It's something I really miss in basically all new RPGs where devs would just make a dumb dialogue choice.
“Cast charm or heal unprompted on NPC to unlock new dialogue” is never explained in the tutorials and contradicts how other dialogue interactions work. Other dialogue unlocks by fulfilling a quest, holding a particular item, or meeting an ability score requirement.

Even Bloodlines doesn’t do that. It lets you cast charm on or heal NPCs by selecting the corresponding dialogue options.

This is unintuitive enough that of course most players never noticed and I don’t agree with the assertion that the players are just too uncreative. They’ve been trained by popular design paradigms to approach problems a certain way. It’s a problem with the games, not the players.

For example, I only discovered by chance while playing NWN that you could kill the half-orc sailor guy after giving him the prostitute’s brooch and then return it to her. After giving it to him neither of them provide new dialogue choices, so you have to deliberately attack him because he isn’t hostile. Funny thing is, IIRC, the prostitute acknowledges in dialogue that it’s weird that you gave him the brooch and then killed him. That was a nice touch, IIRC.

If you can charm, heal or kill NPCs unprompted to change quest outcomes… well, most CRPGs don’t train players to consider that
 
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Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I did a play through. Nice to see there are still a few surprises waiting for me.
The game rewarded creative thinking. If you see someone with a mental illness, well, try casting heal on them. It's something I really miss in basically all new RPGs where devs would just make a dumb dialogue choice.
“Cast charm or heal unprompted on NPC to unlock new dialogue” is never explained in the tutorials and contradicts how other dialogue interactions work. Other dialogue unlocks by fulfilling a quest, holding a particular item, or meeting an ability score requirement.

Even Bloodlines doesn’t do that. It lets you cast charm on or heal NPCs by selecting the corresponding dialogue options.

This is unintuitive enough that of course most players never noticed and I don’t agree with the assertion that the players are just too uncreative. They’ve been trained by popular design paradigms to approach problems a certain way. It’s a problem with the games, not the players.

For example, I only discovered by chance while playing NWN that you could kill the half-orc sailor guy after giving him the prostitute’s brooch and then return it to her. After giving it to him neither of them provide new dialogue choices, so you have to deliberately attack him because he isn’t hostile. Funny thing is, IIRC, the prostitute acknowledges in dialogue that it’s weird that you gave him the brooch and then killed him. That was a nice touch, IIRC.

If you can charm, heal or kill NPCs unprompted to change quest outcomes… well, most CRPGs don’t train players to consider that
this is the reason crpgs are shit now
 

Norfleet

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The Drow literally have a functioning society. Read what I quoted. They band together for strength even though they're chaotic evil ftmp. They're intelligent enough for that.
That's what I've been saying all along: They HAVE A SOCIETY, and therefore, they have social values, that, while you may disagree with, nonetheless represent a polarity of "good" to them: What is proper behavior. Did you not see the video I linked earlier about this?

The Drow are literally a baby murdering spider cult AND a society.
Yes, and at the point your cult becomes mainstream and central to a society, it is now a religion. When you sacrifice children to in a hidden lair away from the prying eyes of society, you're a crazy cultist. When you sacrifice children on public altars in front of a cheering crowd of townspeople to secure the rising of the sun, you're the high priest of a major religion. See: The Aztecs. Are the Aztecs "evil", or do they just have different social values?
 
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That's what I've been saying all along: They HAVE A SOCIETY, and therefore, they have social values, that, while you may disagree with, nonetheless represent a polarity of "good" to them: What is proper behavior. Did you not see the video I linked earlier about this?
the moral axis of alignment has a fixed frame of reference that cannot be moved or the ruleset falls apart, I covered this in my post
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,054
The Drow are literally a baby murdering spider cult AND a society.
Yes, and at the point your cult becomes mainstream and central to a society, it is now a religion. When you sacrifice children to in a hidden lair away from the prying eyes of society, you're a crazy cultist. When you sacrifice children on public altars in front of a cheering crowd of townspeople to secure the rising of the sun, you're the high priest of a major religion. See: The Aztecs. Are the Aztecs "evil", or do they just have different social values?

This has been covered to death. Morality in DnD is objective, good and evil are tangible, observable forces that do not change based on opinion. As are Law and Chaos!
 

Arvennios

Novice
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
48
Not every non-evil drow is a "Drizzt clone", there is room for all sorts of characters, there was Zaknafein, Jarlaxle, even Vierna could have been redeemed under different circumstances. LLolth is a terrible influence on Drow society, the most despicable and terrible deeds committed by drows are all done in her name and at her bidding.

 

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