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Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

mediocrepoet

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In fact, the decline started in 3E, which removed racial requirement for certain classes.
Good post up until this, but well no. 2E seriously toned down racial requirements, level caps, etc. from 1E and in that light 3E could be seen as a continuation of that movement. The only other thing that 3E removed was not requiring paladins to be human.

Other than that, the "not all drow" crap started in 2E and I think the first instance of this sort of thing is actually the "is it lawful good to kill orc babies" crap that is generally against the spirit of D&D imo, though if you want that sort of game, then by all means. At that point though, your game isn't really about heroic adventure and looting, it's more some sort of metacommentary and philosophical thought experiment to raise discussions of ethical issues and whatever else might be on the group's minds.
 

Cryomancer

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thats-racist-racist-meme.gif

No, is not; fantasy races aren't based in human races, are completely different species. That said, the point that certain races like Dwarfs can't be magic users is used in many settings metaplot, Mystara and how the Dwarf managed to make spelljammer ships work despite zero magical capacity was quite interesting.


seriously toned down racial requirements, level caps, etc

I know, some very early versions even had different stats for male and females... About level cap based in race, I think that is fine IF we are talking about a human supremacist setting. Anyway, some retroclones like Lamentations of the Flame Princess even has races as classes.
 

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seriously toned down racial requirements, level caps, etc

I know, some very early versions even had different stats for male and females... About level cap based in race, I think that is fine IF we are talking about a human supremacist setting. Anyway, some retroclones like Lamentations of the Flame Princess even has races as classes.
1E had different stats... I mean, you can even just look at a Gold Box manual to verify that.
Races as classes are at least as old as BECMI.
 

Volourn

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Demi humans could be paladins and other restricted classes in 2e. FFS People can be ignorant. 3E gave a legit (albeit semi bogus) reason why dwarves could use magic. That said, dwarves ie derro could use magic in earlier versions, too. I actually prefer the non arcane magic using dwarves but I don't mind horribly if they can. Some of the Dwarven gods lend themselves to it. That said, this creep into having no real differences between the races is dumb. Dwarves et al are NOT humans.
 

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I have just thought of a really tough question similar to this Drow debate, could a mind flayer or beholder baby raised by a good family be good? Because those creatures are inherently evil?
 
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View attachment 25627

tl;dr: Fucking cop-out
Its an interesting perspective but I dont agree that Drow are always evil and cannot change. Their are good Drow in the FR and no baby is inherently evil, this type of behavior is inculcated in someone through their upbringing. So if a Drow baby is raised by good people it will be good

Besides Viconia is hot, we always allow exceptions for hotness :hug:
Gary Gygax:
As I created them, there are absolutely no good Drow save for the insane.

Gygax held a strong belief that many traits are inherently biological, so yes, he believed Drow were born evil.
 

mediocrepoet

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Demi humans could be paladins and other restricted classes in 2e. FFS People can be ignorant.
They sure can.

Paladin
Ability Requirements:Strength 12
Constitution 9
Wisdom 13
Charisma 17
Prime Requisites:Strength, Charisma
Races Allowed:Human

https://advanced-dungeons-dragons-2nd-edition.fandom.com/wiki/Paladin

I mean, later on they had saurials from the Curse of the Azure Bonds novel adaptation. And in the splatbooks they discussed the possibility of demi-paladins that may be allowed by DM Fiat, but per the 2E PHB, paladins are human.
 

mediocrepoet

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I have just thought of a really tough question similar to this Drow debate, could a mind flayer or beholder baby raised by a good family be good? Because those creatures are inherently evil?
This isn't tough. The fact that mind flayers eat brains makes them either evil due to murdering people for their brains or dead due to starvation. Good luck raising a beholder baby due to being stoned/disintegrated/death rayed/etc. the first time it looks at you with one of its eye stalks.

Yes, evil.
 
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He's technically-correct-but-sorta-not-really. Some races had their own somewhat equivalent of a paladin if they were honorable enough to warrant it and these were termed demipaladin. e.g., Halflings had the Sheriff and Guardian, plus they had a kit for being a paladin's squire. I couldn't tell you exactly where Sheriff makes a first appearance, but it's definitely in at least (notably, two) AD&D 2E books -- Complete book of Gnomes & Halflings + Complete book of Paladins. It being in the latter means I'd definitely say, yes, they have an equivalent of a paladin.
Halfling guardians make an appearance in Dragon #129, 1988. It also seems to imply guardians typically are sheriffs.
 

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He's technically-correct-but-sorta-not-really. Some races had their own somewhat equivalent of a paladin if they were honorable enough to warrant it and these were termed demipaladin. e.g., Halflings had the Sheriff and Guardian, plus they had a kit for being a paladin's squire. I couldn't tell you exactly where Sheriff makes a first appearance, but it's definitely in at least (notably, two) AD&D 2E books -- Complete book of Gnomes & Halflings + Complete book of Paladins. It being in the latter means I'd definitely say, yes, they have an equivalent of a paladin.
Halfling guardians make an appearance in Dragon #129, 1988. It also seems to imply guardians typically are sheriffs.

Yeah, those are from the splatbooks towards the end of 2E where they feature-creeped the shit out of everything. But per the PHB, only humans. Anyway, sure, they were official publications, but all of those splatbook editions were optional.
 
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He's technically-correct-but-sorta-not-really. Some races had their own somewhat equivalent of a paladin if they were honorable enough to warrant it and these were termed demipaladin. e.g., Halflings had the Sheriff and Guardian, plus they had a kit for being a paladin's squire. I couldn't tell you exactly where Sheriff makes a first appearance, but it's definitely in at least (notably, two) AD&D 2E books -- Complete book of Gnomes & Halflings + Complete book of Paladins. It being in the latter means I'd definitely say, yes, they have an equivalent of a paladin.
Halfling guardians make an appearance in Dragon #129, 1988. It also seems to imply guardians typically are sheriffs.

Yeah, those are from the splatbooks towards the end of 2E where they feature-creeped the shit out of everything. But per the PHB, only humans. Anyway, sure, they were official publications, but all of those splatbook editions were optional.
The class published in Dragon predates 2E.
 

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He's technically-correct-but-sorta-not-really. Some races had their own somewhat equivalent of a paladin if they were honorable enough to warrant it and these were termed demipaladin. e.g., Halflings had the Sheriff and Guardian, plus they had a kit for being a paladin's squire. I couldn't tell you exactly where Sheriff makes a first appearance, but it's definitely in at least (notably, two) AD&D 2E books -- Complete book of Gnomes & Halflings + Complete book of Paladins. It being in the latter means I'd definitely say, yes, they have an equivalent of a paladin.
Halfling guardians make an appearance in Dragon #129, 1988. It also seems to imply guardians typically are sheriffs.

Yeah, those are from the splatbooks towards the end of 2E where they feature-creeped the shit out of everything. But per the PHB, only humans. Anyway, sure, they were official publications, but all of those splatbook editions were optional.
The class published in Dragon predates 2E.
I grant your point, but classes and spells and the like that came out of Dragon magazine were always optional and only put in by DM fiat. There were a lot of cool things out of those magazines for sure though. I mean, really, given that the Dragon comment pre-dated 2E as you've said, that would have given them ample time to put that rule or allowance into the 2E PHB. It wouldn't even take much room, it'd go like this:

Paladin
Allowed races: Human --> Allowed races: Human, Dwarf, Halfling, <whatever>

As I've said, per the 2E PHB, only humans are paladins. I mean, you could have all sorts of optional rules. No race restrictions on any class, just throw out the allowed classes list. No attribute requirements or alignment requirements. No level limits of any sorts (a lot of people did this one). Etc.

And yet, per the PHB RAW, only humans are allowed to be paladins.
 
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Isn't this about Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate itself never stuck to the PHB/DMG.
Volourn's post was about 2E. If we're talking about Baldur's Gate, none of that splatbook or Dragon stuff matters at all. Go to the character creation screen. Try to make an unmodded non-human paladin. (Pro-tip: You can't.)
Yes, BG did a bad job implementing the ruleset, what's new?
 

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I have just thought of a really tough question similar to this Drow debate, could a mind flayer or beholder baby raised by a good family be good? Because those creatures are inherently evil?

No. Only insane drows can be good. In case of mindflayer, if a good mindflayer happens to exist, he would die from starvation.

As for baby beholder, anyone attempting such experiment will end up as an pile of dust, statue or worse...


, BG did a bad job implementing the ruleset, what's new

Nope all other 2e crpg that I've played ban non human paladins too. Try to create an elf paladin in Strahd possession
 

mediocrepoet

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Isn't this about Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate itself never stuck to the PHB/DMG.
Volourn's post was about 2E. If we're talking about Baldur's Gate, none of that splatbook or Dragon stuff matters at all. Go to the character creation screen. Try to make an unmodded non-human paladin. (Pro-tip: You can't.)
Yes, BG did a bad job implementing the ruleset, what's new?
Man, you have this multi-phased goalpost thing down to a science.

Sure, I accept that, why did you even post given that nothing means anything?
 
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Isn't this about Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate itself never stuck to the PHB/DMG.
Volourn's post was about 2E. If we're talking about Baldur's Gate, none of that splatbook or Dragon stuff matters at all. Go to the character creation screen. Try to make an unmodded non-human paladin. (Pro-tip: You can't.)
Yes, BG did a bad job implementing the ruleset, what's new?
Man, you have this multi-phased goalpost thing down to a science.

Sure, I accept that, why did you even post given that nothing means anything?
I'm bored
 

Cryomancer

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Isn't this about Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate itself never stuck to the PHB/DMG.
Volourn's post was about 2E. If we're talking about Baldur's Gate, none of that splatbook or Dragon stuff matters at all. Go to the character creation screen. Try to make an unmodded non-human paladin. (Pro-tip: You can't.)
Yes, BG did a bad job implementing the ruleset, what's new?
Man, you have this multi-phased goalpost thing down to a science.

Sure, I accept that, why did you even post given that nothing means anything?
I'm bored

You could play 2e crpgs...
 

hello friend

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I don't know who Isabela is, but if she's that person with the french voice actor I could listen to her talk all day.

I have just thought of a really tough question similar to this Drow debate, could a mind flayer or beholder baby raised by a good family be good? Because those creatures are inherently evil?

No. Only insane drows can be good.
^This. Even if the idea of good and evil being real, objective forces in the dnd universe doesn't register you can use the very imperfect analogy of instinct as a proxy. Consider pitbulls. You can have a pitbull that's all smiles and won't rip a kid's throat out, but you can never really trust them. Same with large cats. Don't turn your back on a large cat, because instinct encourages them to attack if you're vulnerable. Don't agitate a bee; it will sting. Similarly, a drow has an innate tendency towards evil. If you try to bring your grey morality into it realise you're undermining an essential feature of the system, it's not dnd anymore but a homebrew hack of it. So yes, drow are evil.

And Viconia has weird eyes.
 

Volourn

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Demi humans can be paladins in 2e. This is fact. 2e didnt stop at the PHB. And, using BG series as 'proof' is retartet because they added kits which come from those fukkin splat books you whine about. Bottom line us the 2e rules allowed you to play Dwarven or whatever paladins/rangers/whatever. I never bothered, but it is right there in the rules. Ignorant morans.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Other than that, the "not all drow" crap started in 2E...
Non-evil drow originated with Drizzt Do'Urden in R.A. Salvatore's novel The Crystal Shard from 1988, thus predating AD&D 2nd edition. The later presence of non-evil drow options in rulebooks and setting books stems from the popularity of these novels.

crystalshard.jpg
 

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