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Are Thief 3's Shalebridge Cradle and VTMB's Ocean House levels overrated?

Duraframe300

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This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.
Which is why I'm not that much of a fan of the Ocean House, since all that's left to me was a short, scripted romp that didn't take my charachters stats into account at all. I'm not even sure why people remember the elevator since I fully expected what would happen.

Otoh, the only Resident Evil I've managed to play through alone is 5. And that was a pure action game.
 

Prime Junta

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This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.

Same. Also I had just played Thief: Deadly Shadows and as nice as Ocean House is, it's no Shalebridge Cradle.
 

JarlFrank

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This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.

Same. Also I had just played Thief: Deadly Shadows and as nice as Ocean House is, it's no Shalebridge Cradle.

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated and actually a meh level that drags on for way too long (one fetch quest, okay, but three of them in a row? It's like Brother Murus' ghost in Return to the Cathedral all over again).
 

Prime Junta

Guest
This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.

Same. Also I had just played Thief: Deadly Shadows and as nice as Ocean House is, it's no Shalebridge Cradle.

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated and actually a meh level that drags on for way too long (one fetch quest, okay, but three of them in a row? It's like Brother Murus' ghost in Return to the Cathedral all over again).

Well it scared the bejeezus out of me.
 

fantadomat

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This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.

Same. Also I had just played Thief: Deadly Shadows and as nice as Ocean House is, it's no Shalebridge Cradle.

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated and actually a meh level that drags on for way too long (one fetch quest, okay, but three of them in a row? It's like Brother Murus' ghost in Return to the Cathedral all over again).

Well it scared the bejeezus out of me.
Thief 3 does have really good art direction,the game is very atmospheric. It is shame that it got fucked by console peasantry.
 

fantadomat

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I don't like horror so I judge the mission purely on its gameplay aspects. And there, it falls very flat.
Well it is the most sneaky level of the game. Killing all the undead was pretty hard. You needed full flashbombs and holy waters to kill them all. It was pretty fun level to play alone in a dark room in a creepy century old house :). Tho i was mostly interesting in the stories and the written documents you find in there. To be honest,i liked the story of thief 3 the most,it was pretty dark and creepy. The worst part of the game was that they cut the levels and made them smaller,and the no difference in missions on expert difficulty. The rest of the game was great. The last of its kind.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I already can see a pattern, just grab a gun, pump the small firearms/guns skill to max, and you win the game easy peasy.
"I figured out how to make games less fun for myself. Pretty smart eh"

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated
I don't like horror so I judge horror on irrelevant stuff
qeCUj5B.png
You're not competent to offer criticism.

"The ice cream at Joe's Ice Cream is overrated. I mean, I hate all ice cream, but the spoon was a weird shape, so the ice cream is bad."
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't like horror so I judge horror on irrelevant stuff
qeCUj5B.png
You're not competent to offer criticism.

"The ice cream at Joe's Ice Cream is overrated. I mean, I hate all ice cream, but the spoon was a weird shape, so the ice cream is bad."

That's why horror should stick to its own genre rather than horror missions being put into other games. :M

I love me a good steak but I'm going to complain to the cook if he puts a ball of ice cream on top of it.

I thought VtM:B's Ocean House was okay, horror levels fit to a vampire game after all. But gameplay-wise it was pretty boring, yes. Also a very overrated level, just walk through the house while spooky stuff happens around you. Yawn.
 

Butter

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I thought VtM:B's Ocean House was okay, horror levels fit to a vampire game after all. But gameplay-wise it was pretty boring, yes. Also a very overrated level, just walk through the house while spooky stuff happens around you. Yawn.
Better than fighting zombies for 5 minutes straight in the Hollywood graveyard.
 

fantadomat

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I don't like horror so I judge horror on irrelevant stuff
qeCUj5B.png
You're not competent to offer criticism.

"The ice cream at Joe's Ice Cream is overrated. I mean, I hate all ice cream, but the spoon was a weird shape, so the ice cream is bad."

That's why horror should stick to its own genre rather than horror missions being put into other games. :M

I love me a good steak but I'm going to complain to the cook if he puts a ball of ice cream on top of it.

I thought VtM:B's Ocean House was okay, horror levels fit to a vampire game after all. But gameplay-wise it was pretty boring, yes. Also a very overrated level, just walk through the house while spooky stuff happens around you. Yawn.
Come on mate ,half the first thief is filled with spooky levels,and decent amount of the second game have such parts.
 

Zombra

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I love me a good steak but I'm going to complain to the cook if he puts a ball of ice cream on top of it.
You're free to complain about the ice cream being there (more properly, you're complaining about having a dessert course, not the ruination of the entrée). But to say the ice cream is overrated is to assume an air of authority you don't merit.

"I don't like ice cream so I didn't like this ice cream"

"Ice cream enthusiasts are wrong to praise this particular ice cream as being a great example of what good ice cream is like"

See the difference?
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't like horror so I judge horror on irrelevant stuff
qeCUj5B.png
You're not competent to offer criticism.

"The ice cream at Joe's Ice Cream is overrated. I mean, I hate all ice cream, but the spoon was a weird shape, so the ice cream is bad."

That's why horror should stick to its own genre rather than horror missions being put into other games. :M

I love me a good steak but I'm going to complain to the cook if he puts a ball of ice cream on top of it.

I thought VtM:B's Ocean House was okay, horror levels fit to a vampire game after all. But gameplay-wise it was pretty boring, yes. Also a very overrated level, just walk through the house while spooky stuff happens around you. Yawn.
Come on mate ,half the first thief is filled with spooky levels,and decent amount of the second game have such parts.

The first Thief had excellent atmospheric levels, and some were creepy yes, but they didn't focus on the creepiness to the point of making the gameplay shitty. The Bonehoard was an amazing dungeon crawl, The Sword was unsettling because of its otherworldly architecture and a joy to explore, Return to the Cathedral was a big level with plenty of exploration to be done - but it could have done with one less fetch quest by Brother Murus.

But the Shalebridge Cradle was much smaller than Thief 1's cathedral, and the fetch quests you receive from the ghost girl feel like they stretch out even longer than those you get from Murus. It just becomes tedious and overstays its welcome.

I love me a good steak but I'm going to complain to the cook if he puts a ball of ice cream on top of it.
You're free to complain about the ice cream being there (more properly, you're complaining about having a dessert course, not the ruination of the entrée). But to say the ice cream is overrated is to assume an air of authority you don't merit.

"I don't like ice cream so I didn't like this ice cream"

"Ice cream enthusiasts are wrong to praise this particular ice cream as being a great example of what good ice cream is like"

See the difference?

I judge The Cradle as what it is: a Thief level. I judge it by its level layout and the mission objectives, and it feels like a drag because of too many fetch quests and backtracking combined with a level architecture that is much more narrow than, say, Thief 1's cathedral, which also was somewhat of a horror mission (but also a much better regular Thief mission which focused on exploration of an expansive 3D space).

I'm a big fan of Thief and have played dozens of fan missions for Thief 1 and 2, and I love the "immersive sim" genre in general: Deus Ex, Dishonored, System Shock. Therefore I am fully qualified to judge the Shalebridge Cradle.

Not as a horror level, but as a level in a Thief game. And as such, it is rather quite sub-par.
 

Zombra

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It doesn't matter. You are not an expert on horror. You can't judge horror or call it overrated if you don't know what the point is in the first place.

No one praises the Cradle for its mind-blowing gameplay, yet you confidently contradict all praise strictly on a gameplay basis?
thinking.png


As for what the level "really is": there's a perfectly good argument to be made about Deadly Shadows that the entire game is a buildup to Shalebridge Cradle. Thief 3 is a horror game, not a "Thief game", from that precept.

The reason that the horror is so effective is because it so resoundingly breaks the established pattern of gameplay. That's what the best horror does: establish a comforting baseline, then remove that baseline, isolating the player/audience from what they've become accustomed to. Otherwise you get shit like Layers of Fear, which is the kind of consistent game you seem to insist on (only one course per meal!) but completely fails to do its job as horror because it's all the same. The deliberate inconsistency of good horror is also exactly why Ocean House is so effective: it completely removes the player from the conditioned context of the game to that point. With no conversations to establish expectations, and no enemy hit point bars to chip away at when suddenly attacked, the player is confused and at the mercy of an environment they can't control in any way. That's excellent horror.

Again: it's fine if you can't appreciate good ice cream, or good horror. That doesn't give you an excuse to pass judgement on what you don't understand.
 
Last edited:

Wesp5

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The deliberate inconsistency of good horror is also exactly why Ocean House is so effective: it completely removes the player from the conditioned context of the game to that point. With no conversations to establish expectations, and no hit point bars to chip away at when suddenly attacked, the player is confused and at the mercy of an environment they can't control in any way. That's excellent horror.

Exactly! It was important to show that although the player is an immortal monster now, there are still things that he just can't beat. The werewolf encounter had the same intention I bet...
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
The first Thief had excellent atmospheric levels, and some were creepy yes, but they didn't focus on the creepiness to the point of making the gameplay shitty.
What a weird thing to say.

Return to the Cathedral was a big level with plenty of exploration to be done - but it could have done with one less fetch quest by Brother Murus.
Return to the Cathedral was made less scary because of how long it was and because of all the backtracking you had to do for that dumbass Brother Murus. Shalebridge is a much, much better level, both gameplay-wise and horror-wise.
 

Wesp5

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To be honest,i liked the story of thief 3 the most,it was pretty dark and creepy. The worst part of the game was that they cut the levels and made them smaller,and the no difference in missions on expert difficulty. The rest of the game was great. The last of its kind.

Have you played The Dark Mod yet? A free standalone game based on the Doom 3 engine with many user made missions much closer to Thief 1-3 than newThief. Some of them are quite spooky too!
 

fantadomat

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To be honest,i liked the story of thief 3 the most,it was pretty dark and creepy. The worst part of the game was that they cut the levels and made them smaller,and the no difference in missions on expert difficulty. The rest of the game was great. The last of its kind.

Have you played The Dark Mod yet? A free standalone game based on the Doom 3 engine with many user made missions much closer to Thief 1-3 than newThief. Some of them are quite spooky too!










What do you think?
 

JarlFrank

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There's a perfectly good argument to be made about Deadly Shadows that the entire game is a buildup to Shalebridge Cradle. Thief 3 is a horror game, not a "Thief game", from that precept.

Then it's a bad Thief game.

I could make the same argument with, say, Fallout 4. You can't criticize it as an RPG because it's supposed to be an FPS. Whoop-de-hoo, it's still called Fallout 4, and as such one should reasonably expect it to be an RPG like its predecessors. You should be able to judge its quests as RPG quests.

And so you can also judge a fucking Thief mission as a Thief mission and compare it to Down in the Bonehoard, The Sword, First City Bank and Trust, or Thief 3's own Widow Moira's manor, Hammer church, or city sections. And compared to those, The Cradle just doesn't hold up as a Thief mission. It has too much backtracking with the 3 fetch quests you do for the ghost girl in a row, and comparatively narrow environments to traverse. It's not a terrible mission, it's decent enough, but it's far below average for the series.

It also feels somewhat out of place in the setting. Previous horror-themed missions in Thief games had you infiltrate ancient ruins haunted by the undead, an old abandoned Hammerite church, the weird woodlands of the Woodsie Lord, etc. All very consistent with the setting and thematically fitting.

Then, in Thief 3, you get... a haunted house that used to be an asylum and an orphanage. Oh wow, how original and absolutely Thief-like... not.
Zero connection to any of the world's factions - no Pagans, no Hammers, no Keepers, no Mechanists. Just the oldest cliche of a haunted house ever: orphanage and mental asylum. Yes, its story is somewhat connected to the main plot, but the connection isn't half as strong as Return to the Cathedral's, or Trail of Blood's. It feels out of place because it could be transplanted into any other game and you wouldn't notice the difference.

When I was younger, I avoided horror levels because I'd be too easily terrified by that stuff. Nowadays, I don't get scared easily anymore, but it's not something I seek out either. I would never pick up a dedicated horror game because it's not my thing.
I can totally appreciate eerie and creepy atmospheres in games where it fits, though. The horror elements in Thief 1 fit perfectly, as they tie in with the factions and the themes of the game.
Bloodlines' Ocean House fits very well into the game and has a place there.
I can appreciate the eerieness of Sixth House dungeons in Morrowind.
STALKER is a great FPS, and I did enjoy crawling through the old ruins, wondering when the next mutated monster would strike at me. It fit the atmosphere and themes of the game very well.

But the Cradle? It feels like it doesn't belong. It has nothing Thiefy about it. It feels like one of those generic haunted house horror games you can pick up on Steam for 10 dollars. It's completely out of place.
And to top it off, it has you backtrack thrice (!) to solve fetch quests (!), which is inherently bad game design.
 

Zombra

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Then it's a bad Thief game.
And that's fine for you to say, because in this context, "Thief game" means "game that does certain things that JarlFrank likes and does not do other things that JarlFrank does not like". When it goes outside your parameters, it's automatically bad. This is classic 'cool story bro' territory. Nobody died and made you the king of objective opinions.

Not everyone insists on yet another level where you get chased by the Hammers, and nothing you've said invalidates why the Cradle was praised in the first place ... in fact, much of what you say reinforces what is good about it. Again: breaking expectations is what makes good horror.

All you're substantially saying is "I didn't like that level." Good for you. No one really cares.
 

Duraframe300

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The deliberate inconsistency of good horror is also exactly why Ocean House is so effective: it completely removes the player from the conditioned context of the game to that point. With no conversations to establish expectations, and no hit point bars to chip away at when suddenly attacked, the player is confused and at the mercy of an environment they can't control in any way. That's excellent horror.

Exactly! It was important to show that although the player is an immortal monster now, there are still things that he just can't beat. The werewolf encounter had the same intention I bet...

Did it though?

Because that's exactly what I don't understand about it. For me, Ocean House was a bunch of horror clichees. Like EVERYTHING that happened I expected, because it was like walking through a theme park horror house. The elevator, the kitchen with flying utensils, the corridor. EVERYTHING I've experienced before in one form or another.

That's why I wasn't scared one bit and again, can't even finish plenty of games alone.
 

fantadomat

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The deliberate inconsistency of good horror is also exactly why Ocean House is so effective: it completely removes the player from the conditioned context of the game to that point. With no conversations to establish expectations, and no hit point bars to chip away at when suddenly attacked, the player is confused and at the mercy of an environment they can't control in any way. That's excellent horror.

Exactly! It was important to show that although the player is an immortal monster now, there are still things that he just can't beat. The werewolf encounter had the same intention I bet...

Did it though?

Because that's exactly what I don't understand about it. For me, Ocean House was a bunch of horror clichees. Like EVERYTHING that happened I expected, because it was like walking through a theme park horror house. The elevator, the kitchen with flying utensils, the corridor. EVERYTHING I've experienced before in one form or another.

That's why I wasn't scared one bit and again, can't even finish plenty of games alone.
First time you play it is fun. Nobody is arguing that it is scary,it was spooky and atmospheric,but not scary lol. You people are talking as if there is an actually scary shit in games. Our brains do know that it is a bunch of pixels and just accept it as some unique entertainment. You can't really get scared in any game.
 

JarlFrank

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Then it's a bad Thief game.
And that's fine for you to say, because in this context, "Thief game" means "game that does certain things that JarlFrank likes and does not do other things that JarlFrank does not like". When it goes outside your parameters, it's automatically bad. This is classic 'cool story bro' territory. Nobody died and made you the king of objective opinions.

Not everyone insists on yet another level where you get chased by the Hammers, and nothing you've said invalidates why the Cradle was praised in the first place ... in fact, much of what you say reinforces what is good about it. Again: breaking expectations is what makes good horror.

All you're substantially saying is "I didn't like that level." Good for you. No one really cares.

Breaking expectations is always good, sure.

But please explain to me how a cliched 19th century style haunted mental asylum/orphan cradle fits into Thief's excellent worldbuilding. It feels jarring and out of place. Might have been a good mission in a different game, but it just doesn't fit into Thief.

Just because you love horror doesn't mean the mission fits into Thief canon.
 

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