Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
Pop-ups is shitty way to do reactions (I didn’t like the way it is done in Solasta), but may be the only option really.
I DO like the way they are handled in Solasta, but I also do think there's plenty of room for improvement in making them LOOK more palatable to a more casual audience.

It's also worth noting that among that overlapping portion of players who actually played both games the overwhelming majority seem to prefer the way Solasta handled reaction over the way BG3 did.
Even the BG3 subreddit, which is notoriously a den of fanboys with a gigantic bias in favor of Larian, a complete revamp of the current reaction system to resemble more closely what Solasta did is one of the most frequently requested things.
To the point where predictably you are also starting to have some backlash with people who go rabid at the mere mention of the issue.
 

razvedchiki

Erudite
Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
4,268
Location
on the back of a T34.
Hey Reinhardt , imagine being able to do this:


Show video of Baldur's Gate 3 so I can make an informed comparison between the two.

Not much to see.



Just a bunch of spergs moving around erratically without any particular reason as you stroll around.

Then again, for how bad this default formation can be, the worst part of this system comes when you are attempting to move separate subgroups rather than when you are moving the entire party.
Imagine, for instance, that you are in need to move three of them in one direction and three on the opposite one: welcome to MINUTES of bizarre and convolute pulling and pushing for what could take two drag and click with a typical CRPG.



you can have 6 man parties?
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
you can have 6 man parties?
Only doing shenaningans and editing the save files.
The game already includes a variable to allow parties up to 8 characters. It's just locked to 4 by default.
Fair warning: this currently comes with a series of minor but annoying side effects (i.e. during dialogues your extra companions in the background overlap, etc).
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
does it make the game easier with 6 fightans?
Obviously, but I don't really care that much.
I can pretty much curb-stomp these encounters even with 4 characters given how familiar I got with them and I think the benefits (having more use for more equip, listening characters bantering with each other, experiencing every one of their situational reactions and/or personal quests, etc) outweight the downsides.

Frankly if someone manages to make the process smoother through proper modding I'm planning to play even at release with a larger party but raising some difficulty setting.
 

Shrimp

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,058
I'm seeing on both the official forum and Steam a lot of people desperately trying to come up with "reaction" systems that would not involve the need for confirmation (so no reactive at all, in the end).

"But what if we had a separate mini-turn where all reactions are concentrated?"
"What if we had a scripting system where you set the conditions for having a reaction trigger or not?"
"What if we made reactions infinite and kept them automated as they are now?"
Etc, etc, etc.

Why don't you just let me, you know, REACT to things and confirm them on a case-by-case basis? For how I see it, any alternate solution that would require PRE-PLANNING is inherently a failure.
You could make an argument for having a crude pop-up in the middle of the screen being a bit rough as a solution in terms of visual presentation, but if presentation and production value are the real issue there are a few dozens ways to present the same exact concept in a fancier, prettier way.

I swear, it seems to me that there's a disproportionate amount of effort going on to circumvent a problem that doesn't even exist.
It's like witnessing a bunch of people putting together a plan to dig some complex network of tunnels under the sewers so they can leave a building that had all the doors open the entire time.
Given Larian's total silence when it comes to reactions there's a chance the full game simply won't have them implemented any other way than how they currently work.
Considering how a proper reaction system is one of, if not the most, requested features I think a fair amount of those suggestions just are people trying to come up with compromises between their ideal or preferred reaction system (like the one used in Solasta) and the one currently in the game. Consider it their way of coping with how it currently seems like there's a big chance the game won't ship with a revamped reaction system.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
Given Larian's total silence when it comes to reactions there's a chance the full game simply won't have them implemented any other way than how they currently work.
True, but the thing with Larian is: they aren't just maintaining "total silence over reactions". They are doing it about everything, so their silence can't really be taken as a reliable indication of anything.
Across this entire EA they've been exceptionally uncommunicative about every single topic. If anything reactions are one of the few topics where at some point they've been uncharacteristically open in saying "We are working on a better system" (but of course nothing came out of it).

The only things they comment about are the ones they are putting out with every patch... and only after the fact.
Several people (myself included, admittedly) have expressed several time across the last two years their disappointment with the "Panel From Hell" pageantry, not because of the "waste of money" (these are Larian's money after all, and it's their business how they spend them) but because it's built over the idea of "Nothing is more exciting than keeping secrets and then shouting 'SURPRISE' after.
Me? I think it's a garbage way to communicate during an extensive beta test/EA process. I'd honestly take regular, plain community updates like "We are aware of problems with X, we heard loud and clear that people want improvements to Y we are working on making Z better, too" over these clown shows. And why are the long stretches of complete silence between patches even a thing, anyway? Isn't the time window in-between updated the IDEAL time to talk about what's coming and make the long waits more bearable for your user base?

That aside, I'd guess you are mostly hitting the nail on the head on people's behavior. I've seen several guys commenting "Since we are not getting good reactions, let's think about the second best thing after".
Personally? I see every single proposal I read so far as a different flavor of "complete failure" rather than a desirable alternative.
 

Swen

Scholar
Shitposter
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
1,907
Location
Belgium, Ghent
For the benefit of the ignorant barbarian, how does reaction work right now?
Well, the short version would be "they don't".
But putting more effort into it...

So far we have just some of the most basic types of reactions (attack of opportunity if someone moves in your area of control, Riposte (if have the skill) when someone attacks you and misses, etc) and the way they work is that they are toggles that you can activate to take that type of reaction automatically when the chance comes.
If the toggle is disabled, on the other hand, you just pass on the reaction without any request of confirmation.

Now, this is fairly lame but mostly functional when it comes to basic reactions that don't consume resources. The problem will come as stuff like Shield (the spell), counter-spell, etc will enter the arena (OR NOT, if Larian decides to skip on them), since these are reactions that consume limited resources AND what's at stake is a bit more than "taking your chance to give a bonus swing). For instance an automated Counter-spell would have high chances to get wasted on a cantrip or stopping some stupid buff, when you ideally want to save it to intercept the enemy caster throwing a fireball at your party.

Admittedly I can understand a dev wanting to find some alternate solution for something like Cutting Words, something that can be called at will (like an instant/interrupt in Magic) to debuff basically ANY ongoing enemy action... But I don't think fringe cases like this should dictate the entirety of how the reaction system works.

It's also somewhat amusing that Larian is rubbing salt on the wound, making the final boss of their EA (a massive iron golem) an encounter that is built around the idea of kiting the fucker around since he keeps chasing the "last hitter"... And a misplaced AoO there can turn into a serious middle finger to your entire game plan.
Tuco, me and everyone here appreciate your level of autism and the time you put into this but nobody at larian is going to read it, you need to move your pizza eating ass to Belgium and the larian office, you have the chance to go.

SIGN UP! https://larian.com/playtest

You are perfect

afbeelding.png


You will also be rewarded!

Cryomancer is a bit too autistic for this though.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,179
We should hold a fundraiser to plane tickets a Codex ambassador to Ghent. But only someone who agrees to wear a NWN2 t-shirt to Larian's offices.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,737
Location
Frostfell
You will also be rewarded!

Which reward?

As for playtesting BG3, as I"ve said, I will wait till someone mods a better rule into the game and the game launches(probably after WH : Rogue trader), at moment I"m more interested in playing EverQuest(first mmo which I subbed) than being free beta tester for Larian. BTW, Swen keeps saying that "missing is not fun", but I'm getting a lot of fun in EQ and your spells can "fizzle", here is what happens when you reach lv 44 as a necromancer without using a single evocation spell(mostly conjuration/alteration)

ZEQ4gD0.png
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
Case in point:
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/wa9q92/reaction_system/

Read the comments in this thread. It's a perfect case of what I was referring to, except now it's happening on reddit.

Some of the dumbest, most elaborate suggestions to come up with "systems that would avoid confirmation prompts" (I don't like to call them pop-ups because they don't necessarily need to be one).
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Some of the dumbest, most elaborate suggestions to come up with "systems that would avoid confirmation prompts" (I don't like to call them pop-ups because they don't necessarily need to be one).
A proper reaction system should have some sort of prompt to notify when an action is possible and to take it. The examples of such systems without prompts like for Opportunity attacks for example like in the NWN games or the pathfinder games have the potential to waste your OAs on the first characters that move or do something that allows for an AoO when you might have preferred to use them on a different character.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,440
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1086940/view/3373777357207113740
Hotfix #27 Now Live!
Version Number: 4.1.1.1739262
e9cf98ed6a8c249755e7ce19cb7220ec6de993e8.jpg


Hello everyone,

We’ve got another hotfix for you today, addressing several crashes and bugs. We’re also very happy to report that this hotfix brings Patch 8 to Mac players. We’d make a joke about metal support but we wouldn’t want to explode Neil’s head again, now, would we?

Thank you to everyone who took the time to report these issues to us through all of our channels. Your support is greatly appreciated as we squash these troublesome bugs. Thank you for playing Baldur’s Gate 3!

CRASHES & BLOCKERS

  • Fixed some companions not performing their camp rituals in savegames first made in the original Patch 8 release or Hotfix 24, and then loaded or saved in Hotfix 25.
  • Fixed a crash that would occur when you successively went to camp, traded with Withers, then went to sleep.
  • Fixed a potential crash that would occur when saving or levelling up.
  • Fixed a potential crash that would occur when you dismissed a companion at camp and key items were transferred into your inventory automatically.
  • Fixed passive rolls crashing the game in certain circumstances, like when starting combat while sneaking.
  • Fixed a crash that would occur when sending a character to camp while the party panel was open.


COMBAT

  • Fixed Valiant Damage removing Bardic Inspiration if you missed an attack.
  • Fixed spells with effects that end combat getting interrupted.
  • Fixed the hag’s cinematic not triggering when you entered her lair for the boss fight.


UI & UX

  • The party panel now updates the character list when you add or remove a character to or from the party.
  • The journal now updates accordingly when the hag's reward appears in your inventory after you choose to spare her in exchange for ‘power’.
  • Fixed the Level Up UI not appearing when entering Turn-Based Mode for the first time.
  • Fixed revived companions having empty inventories when resurrected.
  • Improved the text input support for Chinese keyboards (Microsoft Pinyin).


VISUAL BUGS

  • Fixed a Vulkan-specific visual glitch that would occur when switching races during character creation.
  • Fixed a visual issue causing squares to appear in the sky around distant trees.
  • Fixed Gauntlet Nichol's name going missing.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,183
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Given Larian's total silence when it comes to reactions there's a chance the full game simply won't have them implemented any other way than how they currently work.
True, but the thing with Larian is: they aren't just maintaining "total silence over reactions". They are doing it about everything, so their silence can't really be taken as a reliable indication of anything.
Across this entire EA they've been exceptionally uncommunicative about every single topic. If anything reactions are one of the few topics where at some point they've been uncharacteristically open in saying "We are working on a better system" (but of course nothing came out of it).

The only things they comment about are the ones they are putting out with every patch... and only after the fact.
Several people (myself included, admittedly) have expressed several time across the last two years their disappointment with the "Panel From Hell" pageantry, not because of the "waste of money" (these are Larian's money after all, and it's their business how they spend them) but because it's built over the idea of "Nothing is more exciting than keeping secrets and then shouting 'SURPRISE' after.
Me? I think it's a garbage way to communicate during an extensive beta test/EA process. I'd honestly take regular, plain community updates like "We are aware of problems with X, we heard loud and clear that people want improvements to Y we are working on making Z better, too" over these clown shows. And why are the long stretches of complete silence between patches even a thing, anyway? Isn't the time window in-between updated the IDEAL time to talk about what's coming and make the long waits more bearable for your user base?

That aside, I'd guess you are mostly hitting the nail on the head on people's behavior. I've seen several guys commenting "Since we are not getting good reactions, let's think about the second best thing after".
Personally? I see every single proposal I read so far as a different flavor of "complete failure" rather than a desirable alternative.
Seems to be industry standard. Recruit the best playtesters then ignore them. I blame the professional playtesters union.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
Last edited:

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
It's not really a "dynamic AI" type of thing. They tend to assume a fixed position near your character that for all intents and purposes is a good old formation (and then move around a lot as soon as you click or target something, because LARIAN)

Here's a screenshot:

3F11E8194C50F401C32EF99EBAC9CD3F317669EB
Not enough reflective surfaces and the portraits are so expressive that it's distracting.

LARIAN/10.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,277
Location
Milan, Italy
That's exactly what BG2 had though. Contingency & Chain Contingency.
BG2 had a lot of questionable stuff as well. I'm not under the delusion that it was perfect.
It was also based on a different ruleset.

AND more importantly than anything else, it wasn't a turn-based tactical, which makes the direct comparison moot.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom