Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I went down a rabbit hole of browsing the Larian forums and taking an actual look at what people outside the Codex are saying about BG3, something I haven't done before. My main take away from the experience was that BG3 has a lot of bad design choices and/or bugs that need to be fixed ASAP according to the Larian fans. Except most of the issues are actually just D&D rules (what little amount of them that exist within BG3). Pretty depressing stuff.

Uhm? Nope.
That's not the case at all. In fact most of what the people criticize even on their very private forum is precisely things that Larian changed from the core ruleset.
And often not even for some form of "loyalty to the original", but because Larian simply made BAD changes that affect the quality of the gameplay negatively.

I don't know if Larian actually has open contempt for D&D or if they genuinely like the system but think that it can't be adapted into a cRPG without heavy modifications (or if they actually do want to do a faithful adaption but it takes time to morph the engine from the DivOS rules to the D&D rules). In the case where they do like D&D I wonder if they are regretting their choice of using the license and having to deal with their DivOS fans who clearly don't understand what D&D is and seem to be repellent to it.

...On the other hand you somewhat nailed the second point: Larian seems to have little more than genuine contempt for the very propriety they licensed to make this game.
They seem to think that the original Baldur's Gate games were shit, that D&D itself is shit, that it's "poorly suited for a videogame" and needs their "clever game designers to come up with better solutions". Solutions that incidentally most of the times absolutely SUCK.

In fact it's somewhat amusing that most of the "gameplay improvements" they made in two years of EA consisted prevalently in... Reverting changes to the rules that they introduced to begin with. When allegedly a "very faithful adaptation of D&D" was their starting point before EA even began, but "then they realized that videogames need different mechanics".
Which for some freaking reason is the shallow platitude that every two pennies designer goes repeating over and over as a mantra, despise their typical inability of coming up with something better.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not even THAT fond of D&D as a ruleset. It's arguably my LEAST favorite among the few pen & paper I actually bothered playing.

It's just that I would be more willing to listen to this type of inane drivel if it came from the people who built rulesets like Darklands, Fallout 1 & 2's version of the S.P.E.C.I.A.L., etc, etc (incidentally, all "videogame" rulesets that made an active attempt to imitate the vibe of a pen & paper system).
Not from people who came up with half-assed abortions like the Dragon Age ruleset, the DOS 1 and 2 systems, etc.

 

[A-Minish]

Banned 6 fucking months for just THAT ?!? While reading the topic, an expression we have here came back to me to qualify such a situation : Dialogue of the deaf/Dialogue de sourds. I salut whomever try to genuinely explain why Larian is doing something wrong(or "wrong"), especially when it's about simple rule application. At this point this situation looks more and more like pure madness to me.

I might even have pity for this Icelyn fellow as he might be realy concerned by the fact that what he loves will be, in a way, gone in the futur. I knew someone like this, sometimes they just cant help it, even if it is dumb.

"I love casting 2 spells in the same turn!" Excuse-me but I legit bugged at this one. 2 spells by turn ? I am confused now. Was it added or was it here from the beginning ?

One thing bothers me with this inane shit about "Freedom with rules". We get it, they are the DMs of their sessions but the thing is they dont understand that some those rules are not just meant to be a balance game and shit, they are supposed to be a fucking interpretation of the world the players are evolving in. If they tore the core-rules too much they will degrade the game but also the world itself. And as a former DM I know what it is to interpret/add/modify rules to make them better or worse(depends of the case).
What I want to point out is that they are not JUST the DMs but the actual official ambassadors of the brand/fiction itself, a brand that has been going to complet shit for a few years now mind you but still. They SHOULD be professional enough to release a work which is properly representatif of the world and thus the tabletop game first.

A solution which could help settle the matter would be to : 1. Add a new option menu with all the core-rules parameters in it, to let the players tweak them to their liking like the difficulty settings of the Pathfinders CRPGs. Let those settings be saveable.
2. While in the difficulty/rule setting, let the player chose between the Larian homebrew-rules and the core-rules(or chose at the start of a game). As such 2 public could be more or less satisfied.
3. Bonus : May be add a RTwP mod/option, like OwlCat/Obsidian did with Pathfinder and Pillars for their Turn-based mod.

But of course it would require a substential amont of work which might never happen.

 

[rojay]

I just watched a youtube video about the game and one comment is bitching about it having turn based combat.

Some people on this very site were bitching about it too, because they wanted a RTWP game.

The real joke will be when divinity original sin 3 comes out and it's strictly real time. It'll still suck, of course, but it'll be extra funny for people without garbage taste in games.

I don't know if you've heard of them, but baldur's gate 1 and 2 actually weren't the exact same game as divinity original sin.

You know, most D&D CRPG adaptations since SSI are Turn Based. There are many things to criticize BG3 and Larian, being TB is not one of then.

RTwP is turn-based. Non-move actions still occur in initiative order.

It just takes out the immersion-breaking pen-and-paper necessities that are made obsolete by automating (and vastly speeding up) computation.

Pause spam is a UI issue. Games with an advance time button don’t have that unless you want the chaos.

You know, you're one of the most knowledgable people on this website. You don't have to be an asshole about it.

Edit: take it for what it's worth, kid. My advice is to learn some grace.

The previous post is being an asshole. Which has its own purpose. The example you quoted here is anything but. It’s simply offering a different way of looking at the issue that could potentially alleviate the mostly false dichotomy people get stuck in.

That’s gracious in its own way and one sorely missing.

Cheap grace is the plague of the postmodern world.

I should know better.

Your above it all high-horseism is how we got in this mess. You’ve abstracted yourself out of life itself.

If you don’t have an asshole you wind up full of shit.

I just watched a youtube video about the game and one comment is bitching about it having turn based combat.

Some people on this very site were bitching about it too, because they wanted a RTWP game.

The real joke will be when divinity original sin 3 comes out and it's strictly real time. It'll still suck, of course, but it'll be extra funny for people without garbage taste in games.

I don't know if you've heard of them, but baldur's gate 1 and 2 actually weren't the exact same game as divinity original sin.

You know, most D&D CRPG adaptations since SSI are Turn Based. There are many things to criticize BG3 and Larian, being TB is not one of then.

RTwP is turn-based. Non-move actions still occur in initiative order.

It just takes out the immersion-breaking pen-and-paper necessities that are made obsolete by automating (and vastly speeding up) computation.

Pause spam is a UI issue. Games with an advance time button don’t have that unless you want the chaos.

You know, you're one of the most knowledgable people on this website. You don't have to be an asshole about it.

Edit: take it for what it's worth, kid. My advice is to learn some grace.

The previous post is being an asshole. Which has its own purpose. The example you quoted here is anything but. It’s simply offering a different way of looking at the issue that could potentially alleviate the mostly false dichotomy people get stuck in.

That’s gracious in its own way and one sorely missing.

Cheap grace is the plague of the postmodern world.

I should know better.

Your above it all high-horseism is how we got in this mess. You’ve abstracted yourself out of life itself.

If you don’t have an asshole you wind up full of shit.

That's almost clever, except that like everyone else here, I have an asshole. I don't need another one.

You have a lot of knowledge about some of the games we all enjoy. Why do you need to be an asshole to share it? Is it because "it's the Codex?" Because the whole "he started it!" thing is pretty weak.

You could actually help a lot more people if you weren't an asshole about it. And you know it.

/dad

 

[Cryomancer]

n THAT fond of D&D as a ruleset. It's arguably my LEAST favorite among the few pen & paper I actually bothered playing.

Which P&P RPG's did you have played. I would love to play GURPS and VtM/VtR but sadly I only had the chance to play D&D + retroclones.

About casting 2 spells in a turn, how this works in BG3? IS using metamagic?

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

n THAT fond of D&D as a ruleset. It's arguably my LEAST favorite among the few pen & paper I actually bothered playing.

Which P&P RPG's did you have played.

M.E.R.P. back in the 90s, Cthulhu, Cyberpunk...
They were all stuff I liked more than D&D.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

n THAT fond of D&D as a ruleset. It's arguably my LEAST favorite among the few pen & paper I actually bothered playing.

Which P&P RPG's did you have played. I would love to play GURPS and VtM/VtR but sadly I only had the chance to play D&D + retroclones.

About casting 2 spells in a turn, how this works in BG3? IS using metamagic?

I don't know about BG3, but to do this in D&D5E you either cast a spell as a bonus action and follow it with a cantrip (o r visa versa). This is typically done via Quicken Spell metamagic as a sorcerer class feature. It can also be done when dipped into fighter to use an Action Surge.

As an aside, I really enjoy RTwP, but am OK with BG3 being turn based. To make 5E work in RTwP, you'd have to throw away the entire action economy. You'd break the whole system. It's not like 2E where rounds can be "silent", or 3E which had tons of free actions and automatic AoOs. 5E must be TB.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

About casting 2 spells in a turn, how this works in BG3? IS using metamagic?

Yeah, it was a comment about their implementation of metamagic, but it applies also in other few fringe cases.
The rule says that if you have a chance to cast two spells, one of the two must be a cantrip. In no scenario you should be able to cast two full blown spells.
This is obviously meant to prevent things like "I'll throw two fireball on top of each other in the same turn" (which the implementation of BG3 would currently allow to happen).

 

[Desiderius]

You could actually help a lot more people if you weren't an asshole about it. And you know it.

/dad

I think we all know who the dad is around here. Having sons forces you to be able to spot and call out bullshit (be an asshole) just to survive. Cheap grace just doesn't cut it.

See Matthew 23. That, too, is grace. The truth will set you free.

Doubly off topic since the original comment you quoted I wasn't even being an asshole, although to Tuco Benedicto Pacifico's point when mods ban the assholes even when they're on their best behavior they undermine their own forums, which I think RPGCodex mods understand and the community relations people game companies hire don't.

 

[017]

Thanks for holding Larian to such a high regard ITT and believing they could do better in spite of already doing an above-standard industry job. Honestly, I am fine with DOS2: DE being 9/10 and BG3 being 8/10 in its EA state, but yes, I get your passion that you want these games to be 10/10. So it's really appreciated that this thread has so much awesome feedback on how the game could be improved, in spite of its existing greatness! Nice!

If only I could play through DOS2 for the first time one more time...

 

[CodexTotalWar]

The rule against "casting 2 levelled spells a turn" is actually a bit convoluted. Basically, there's actually no rule against casting 2 levelled spells a round.

The rule is specifically a limit for bonus action spells - when you've cast ANYTHING with a bonus action:

You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

So it's a rule that limits certain methods of casting multiple spells, but not others. For example, this is a perfectly legal way of casting 3 levelled spells a turn (Fighter 2 / Wizard X) in PnP:

​

Action - Fireball​

Reaction - Silvery Barbs​

Action Surge - Fireball​

Whereas if you've used a bonus action to cast a spell OR cantrip at any point, you're stuck being able to just cast another action cantrip. This means you lose your ability to cast reaction spells during the same turn too.
The reason I say it's convoluted is doing things in the wrong order of operations CAN screw you over. Say you want to cast a Firebolt (cantrip) + Magic Missile (spell) in 1 turn.

Legal: Quickened Magic Missile, Action Firebolt​

Illegal: Quickened Firebolt, Action Magic Missile​

If you've quickened the Firebolt first, you can only cast an action cantrip after, not a levelled spell.

The rule basically exists to fuck Sorcerers with Quicken Metamagic. This is the reason why Quicken is almost never taken by non-Gish Sorcerers. It's value in PnP comes in letting you combo BA spell + non spell action (like Extra Attack).

The above is one of the big reasons why Wizards are basically considered so much better than Sorcerers in the core 5E balance (since metamagic is the Sorcerer's thing, and it's so limited). Larian changing this rule definitely fucks with the PnP balance, but I'd need to play with it on higher levels to really make a call on it. BG3 has already overhauled 5E balance due to loot/attunement, enemy information, meta-gaming, and rest-limitations, before we even consider class changes. At this point I consider them completely different beasts.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Ah yes action surge: another abomination from 5e.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. But 2 fireballs in a single turn means 16d6 damage at merely caster lv 5... I am not a balance cultist, but seems a bit broken to me...

 

[CodexTotalWar]

It's definitely very strong, especially if you can use it against a group of squishies bunched up together.

16d6 is 56 average damage on failed saves, but factoring in the save-for-half at bound accuracy numbers (65%), that's around 37 expected damage before resistance and potential counterspells.
Extremely deadly against a group of bunched weak enemies. But probably not our best option against a boss character.

And remember, this is basically the PEAK of evocation magic (until character level 17). I think you even posted a video earlier about it in this thread - after fireball in 5E, evocation doesn't scale at all (until Meteor Swarm). For example, Cone of Cold (level 5, character level 9) is 8d8 vs. Fireball's 8d6 (level 3, character level 5).

So on it's own, I'm not that worried about the change (or at least willing to test it). Where I'm actually most worried is how this will work with some of Larian's homebrew items - since that starts compounding things.

 

[perfectslumbers]

My DM once upon a time introduced a feat saying "You can cast a second spell in a turn up to spell level 3" It took me about 5 minutes to break the game before he got so mad that he reworked the class I was playing (sorcerer.)

 

[CodexTotalWar]

My DM once upon a time introduced a feat saying "You can cast a second spell in a turn up to spell level 3" It took me about 5 minutes to break the game before he got so mad that he reworked the class I was playing (sorcerer.)

Casting a second spell without needing to expend any resources? (i.e. bonus action, sorcery points, action surge). Or were you still constrained by those?

Though I never really understood how a game can be broken when the DM has literally full control of the game universe. At worst, the problems I usually run into in my games is certain players completely outshining others (in an obnoxious way). But really you don't need any homebrew rules for that. Just basic optimization + strong understanding of the core rules/abilities already puts you far above the average D&D player nowadays.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Casting a second spell without needing to expend any resources? (i.e. bonus action, sorcery points, action surge). Or were you still constrained by those?

Still constrained by those, I had to use metamagic. I kept bursting down his big bads with double scorching ray.

 

[Cryomancer]

this is basically the PEAK of evocation magic

Yep. 5E took lots of things from 4E, including making Wizards only "controllers" hence most of their spells doesn't scale well into mid/high level. In 5E, a freaking lv 20 necromancer can only animate zombies/skeletons while in 2E, they could create undead chimera/abomination mixing two different creatures could AoE OHK in failed save among other things.

Transmutation which always had very strong party buffs and nasty offensive spells like disintegrate, polymorth other and etc is now worthless. Mirror image, an 2th tier spell is more effective than stoneskin, the most iconic defensive spell in 5E...

 

[Larianshill]

. In 5E, a freaking lv 20 necromancer can only animate zombies/skeletons

You really should learn to be quiet about things you don't know anything about.

 

[vortex]

I expect Swen to issue public statement how Larian did terrible misdeeds to Baldur's Gate thus rejecting the whole BG3 project and going back to drawing board. Expect the real BG3 sometime in 2030.

 

[017]

I expect Swen to issue public statement how Larian did terrible misdeeds to Baldur's Gate thus rejecting the whole BG3 project and going back to drawing board. Expect the real BG3 sometime in 2030.

 

[BruceVC]

I expect Swen to issue public statement how Larian did terrible misdeeds to Baldur's Gate thus rejecting the whole BG3 project and going back to drawing board. Expect the real BG3 sometime in 2030.

Guys I want BG3 final release as much as anyone but we mustnt be impatient. Lets give Larian the time they need so this anticipated game does justice to its predecessors

If we need to wait another 18-24 months thats fine, its better than a Cyb2077 early release disaster ?

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

For better or worse (but let's be real, it's for worse) Larian doesn't really seem to give a shit to "doing justice to its predecessors".

In fact, all signs point to the fact that, exactly like with their attitude toward the D&D license, Larian feels mostly contempt for the originals in this series and thinks it can improve over them by overwriting the Baldur's Gate DNA with the one of their own Original Sin series.

 

[mediocrepoet]

In fact, all signs point to the fact that, exactly like with their attitude toward the D&D license, Larian feels mostly contempt for the originals in this series and thinks it can improve over them by overwriting the Baldur's Gate DNA with the one of their own Original Sin series.

I really enjoy the Infinity Engine games, but they're old as hell and without mods it's fairly easy to play the BG games as select all -> attack for almost every fight outside a few set pieces. For newer more challenging riffs on that style of game, there are the Pathfinder games, the Pillars of Eternity games, etc. and the Infinity Engine games can be bought on literally every platform and are still more than playable today.

Bring on a new interpretation of putting D&D into CRPGs, imo. It's great that games like BG3 and Solasta are developed, and BG3 itself is notable for being so clearly high budget and bringing production values that aren't normally seen in the RPG space. If nothing else, it's great to have such a variety of titles to choose from these days. You don't have to be butthurt that this game is titled "Baldur's Gate 3" instead of "Larian sorta 5E adventure", ToB released 21 years ago and the Bhaalspawn's story was done. Anything called BG3 would've had to drop something new, no matter who developed it and no matter what system it was made with.

 

[Harthwain]

You don't have to be butthurt that this game is titled "Baldur's Gate 3" instead of "Larian sorta 5E adventure", ToB released 21 years ago and the Bhaalspawn's story was done. Anything called BG3 would've had to drop something new, no matter who developed it and no matter what system it was made with.

I think the main issue is the lack of true understanding for what Baldur's Gate means to people who played it. It ain't just DnD. It's a very concrete set of games. Baldur's Gate 3 is very visibly not a game made by fans of Baldur's Gate for fans of Baldur's Gate (with all respect to Swen's visible and honest enthusiasm for the game as such), which is also why this doesn't feel like a true successor (spiritual or actual) to the series. Compare Baldur's Gate 3 to Pathfinder, for example. Just by looking at the screenshots Pathfinder oozes the atmosphere of the Infinity Engine games.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Bring on a new interpretation of putting D&D into CRPGs, imo.

I accept the "new interpretation" excuse only ofr things that feel like actual improvements.

Not for "modern changes" and "improvements" like the shitty toilet chain control scheme, the abusrdly ugly UI, the lack of a day/night cycle "because too much work for us", the Diorama-like world design where everything is the distance of a shove away from the other, the garbage rest system (or lack of one), the lack of a tiredness/exhaustion mechanic, the party limited to four characters, etc.

Especially not in a modern game with almost unlimited funding that doesn't have to deal with ANY of the budget limitations that forced the occasional shortcomings in BG2.