Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
It doesn't matter what you do in 5e because every possible character will be within 15% of any other character's success rate at anything.
sometimes you almost get baited into a 5E discussion but then someone says something this outrageously untrue and saves you the trouble

It doesn't matter what you do in 5e because every possible character will be within 15% of any other character's success rate at anything.

5E there's no gap between "optimal" and "You objectively fucked up your character and the system's math now actively hates you
Which IS IT
characters are way less diverse than 3.5/PF but otoh combat isn't a broken mess decided solely by the initiative roll

like anything, it's a trade-off

it's objectively false that all 5E characters are within 15% of each other (take, say, a stock vanilla ranger build vs a hexblade/paladin and you can give the ranger 4 turns before the hexblade paladin acts and he'll still probably win the fight), but it's still true that 5E has way less character customization (too little, if you ask me)

do note the irony that many of the people that cry about 5E's uniformity are ad&d cultists - a system that makes 5E look like customization heaven with its extremely limited character options (most level ups in baldur's gate 1&2 will consist of you clicking the 'ok' button)

mostly, 5E takes are standard codex cult of the binary behaviour where things are either good or shit. in practice, the best way to summarize it is that 5E is way less fun to build characters in while actual combat often plays out better and more like an actual tactical game than 3.5 did

then again, as a purely tactical game system designed for a turn-based video game, 4E is probably the best of the D&Ds (in this regard only, obviously), and we never got a 4E vidya game
 
Last edited:

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,463
Location
Frostfell
ad&d cultists - a system that makes 5E look like customization heaven

AD&D has lots of options for character creation if you include "kits" into the equation.

And quality > quantity.

The kits, classes, race, gender, alingment(...) in BG2 affects your character much more than the anything in BG3.


most level ups in baldur's gate 1&2 will consist of you clicking the 'ok' button

The customization of your character is not solely leveling up screen. Tomes and story options do change your attributes and magic users don't pick spells on leveling up, but they chose spells by finding scrolls and learning from the scrolls. If you look only into the leveling up screen, than lots of games like Gothic has no character customization, because 100% of the character customization comes from interacting with the world...

Also, even if you make less decisions, the decisions which you make matters way more. For example, mage specialization includes an entire prohibited spell school. 5E is removing most drawbacks, hindrances and limitations from kits and races.

actual combat often plays out better and more like an actual tactical game than 3.5 did

Disagreed. Preparation plays a big hole in 2E and even 3E in a lesser extent. And the combat lasts forever, low level 5E chars can literally survive cannon shots...
 
Last edited:

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
AD&D has lots of options for character creation if you include "kits" into the equation.

kits are 5E archetypes

this is why i call you people cultists - you don't just stick to exaggerating the strengths of ad&d like normal fanboys, you say shit like kits being an advantage ad&d has over 5E

The customization of your character is not solely leveling up screen

no, it's both, except in ad&d, where it's almost solely on chargen

Tomes and story options do change your attributes

:hahano:

"my favourite part of character customization is finding a tome of charisma +1"

i'll give you that one, yeah. also not like other editions of D&D have those so you've got a point

same goes for "story options", something very unique to ad&d to be sure!

Preparation plays a big hole in 2E and even 3E in a lesser extent.

???
 
Last edited:

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
AD&D has lots of options for character creation if you include "kits" into the equation.

Which are just yesterday's subclasses.

For example, mage specialization includes an entire prohibited spell school.

And yet, 5E's arcane traditions allow more varied wizards than 2E ever did. In 5E , things like e.g. Bladesingers and Divination wizards play extremely different from one another, compared to 2E specialist wizards where you have forbidden spell schools and maybe some meaningless mechanic tacked on.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Wait, Cryomancer is Victor? Fuck me for wasting my time. I was caught off guard by the mostly correct grammar :(

Yep, he's Victor. He learned some more grammar at last, but you can always tell by his extreme fixation on ADnD and wizards.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,463
Location
Frostfell
kits are 5E archetypes

this is why i call you people cultists - you don't just stick to exaggerating the strengths of ad&d, you say shit like kits being an advantage ad&d has over 5E

Kits changes far more the base class than 5E archetypes. Things that where different classes in 3E, like warlocks/witches and Barbarians where kits in 2E.

An example of 2E kit, Shadow Mage from Player’s Option : Spells & Magic - page 33

CzvkNsP.png


If this kit comes in 5E as an archetype :
  • Forget the save modifiers depending on the light
  • Forget the TWO prohibited spell schools
  • Forget the progression in dark vision, he would get some shit like perfect dark vision at lv 1 or never gets it
  • Forget race requirements
  • Forget attribute requirements, an dwarf with average INT would be able to become an Shadow Mage
  • (...)
Even limiting to CRPGs, wild mage changes way more its base class in BG2 than any archetype in 5E.

Fuck me for wasting my time. I was caught off guard by the mostly correct grammar :(

I was never good with languages. Tried to study German but kept forgetting about what I studied few minutes later. Took a very long time for me to be able to speak and write English without butchering the grammar in every single sentence. I had to use English a lot in my previous work and it improved my English but still far from perfect.

Ragging wizards is never a waste of time.

LOL. What you will gonna do after every single elf and wizard is dead?
 
Last edited:

perfectslumbers

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2021
Messages
1,198
5e gives just enough customisation to trigger my autism but not enough to satiate my autism. 2e doesn't trigger my autism in the first place. 3e and it's derivatives are a swirling autism vortex that will consume your soul if you are not weary.

Personally I've always hated 5e at the table but I look forward to playing it in a CRPG. I don't care for 2e or 3e at the table either but they've both made amazing video games, I'm confident 5e can too.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
this might sound silly but i find myself sometimes going back to the 2e games because they don't have any of the 3e number wankery. oh you wanna hit things with a sword better get you a morale bonus and an equipment bonus and a circumstance bonus and a divine bonus and a food bonus and an inherent bonus and an alchemical bonus and a stat conversion bonus and it never fucking ends because this is cUsToMiZaTiOn. meanwhile just press 'fighter' on the cc screen and you have a base level of competency because that's what you are. someone who fights. doubly comfy if you're a wizard because you're looking at the spells themselves to see if they are any good rather than trying to fuck around with stat bonuses to make things work.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
this might sound silly but i find myself sometimes going back to the 2e games because they don't have any of the 3e number wankery. oh you wanna hit things with a sword better get you a morale bonus and an equipment bonus and a circumstance bonus and a divine bonus and a food bonus and an inherent bonus and an alchemical bonus and a stat conversion bonus and it never fucking ends because this is cUsToMiZaTiOn. meanwhile just press 'fighter' on the cc screen and you have a base level of competency because that's what you are. someone who fights. doubly comfy if you're a wizard because you're looking at the spells themselves to see if they are any good rather than trying to fuck around with stat bonuses to make things work.

sounds like 5e is just a better 2e for you
 

perfectslumbers

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2021
Messages
1,198
this might sound silly
It doesn't sound silly. In 2e the fight is won during the actual fight (and with the annoying prebuffing and a well prepared spellbook.) In 3e you can win fights in the fight itself, but it's a lot easier to just win every fight in the character level up screen. 5e gets rid of excessive prebuffing and has a lot less spells that are niche but essential (like chaotic commands or stone to flesh,) but it's more along the 2e line. Although 5e has an element of winning in character creation if multiclassing is in. Just like 2e had fighter/mage, 5e has sorcerer/paladin or hexblade multiclasses. 5e doesn't have le epic mage duels though, if that's your thing.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom