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Cryomancer

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5e is more like a variation on 3e

Is more like an variation of 4E. Low level characters can survive being shot by cannons, lots of nonsensical gamey stuff in sneak attacks every turn no matter what and hitting undeads, mundane weapons damaging ghosts, high level fights lasting forever, tiers of play, lv 1 nobodies being "heroes", short/long rest which is AEDU in disguise. wizards being merely controllers, artstyle, lack of OHK spells, traps(magical or not) being extremely weaker(...)

3E is not as good as 2E but please. Don't compare 3E and 5E. 5E took few good things from 3E and a lot of bad things from 4E. Just like PF2e which sucks and I hope that OwlCat adapts any retroclone into an CRPG but never touches PF2e.
 

aleph

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5e is more like a variation on 3e with some retarded rules like being able to use potions as quick actions after moving and attacking, somehow magically getting extra actions during combat, and AC/save/AB caps. It also keeps the retarded nonsense of being able to "sneak attack" once per turn regardless of whether or not the character is correctly positioned (at least in 3e, flanking was required even though the rule for it defeated the thematic purpose of a sneak attack; AD&D limited it to backstabs where the thief had to exactly be at the enemy's back). Then to top it all off, it's ability score improvements every few levels just like 3e.

5e plays nothing like 3e on the table and has a completely different design philosophy, but right it is a variation on 3e because some dumb New Codex trash (join date 2020, lol) like you says so. Let me guess, you barely glanced at 5e, never played it, you just think saying stupid shit and being all edgy earns you Kool Kodex Kredits, right?
 
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5e is more like a variation on 3e with some retarded rules like being able to use potions as quick actions after moving and attacking, somehow magically getting extra actions during combat, and AC/save/AB caps. It also keeps the retarded nonsense of being able to "sneak attack" once per turn regardless of whether or not the character is correctly positioned (at least in 3e, flanking was required even though the rule for it defeated the thematic purpose of a sneak attack; AD&D limited it to backstabs where the thief had to exactly be at the enemy's back). Then to top it all off, it's ability score improvements every few levels just like 3e.

5e plays nothing like 3e on the table and has a completely different design philosophy, but right it is a variation on 3e because some dumb New Codex trash (join date 2020, lol) like you says so. Let me guess, you barely glanced at 5e, never played it, you just think saying stupid shit and being all edgy earns you Kool Kodex Kredits, right?
Hello retarded goy.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
Everything is just a simplification of God's creation.
 

Larianshill

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5e is more like a variation on 3e

Is more like an variation of 4E. Low level characters can survive being shot by cannons, lots of nonsensical gamey stuff in sneak attacks every turn no matter what and hitting undeads, mundane weapons damaging ghosts, high level fights lasting forever, tiers of play, lv 1 nobodies being "heroes", short/long rest which is AEDU in disguise. wizards being merely controllers, artstyle, lack of OHK spells, traps(magical or not) being extremely weaker(...)

3E is not as good as 2E but please. Don't compare 3E and 5E. 5E took few good things from 3E and a lot of bad things from 4E. Just like PF2e which sucks and I hope that OwlCat adapts any retroclone into an CRPG but never touches PF2e.
What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you ever stop to consider the shit that comes out of your mouth?
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
If they're called wizards how come they don't use wisdom?
I'll give you an answer once you tell me why they are called fighters when they don't use figs.
Every fighter eats a fig at least once in their lives.
Everything is just a simplification of God's creation.
Tieflings are a complication though

I gotta ask, are tieflings worse than wizards?
Dunno, are all tieflings casters?
 

Grunker

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I think the biggest thing I hate about 3.xe is the initiative system. Ya got your base stat, modifiers, bonuses, then ya roll a d20 on top of it, then add it all up. If you roll low, you die. Roll or die kind gameplay. When it shouldn't be the case for just getting to decide who gets to act. Should be through actual playing rather than losing d20 die. I don't think encounters should be lost or won by basis of that alone.

You're mistaking the symptom for the cause. The actual issue is that in 3.5/PF offense is insanely, preposterously stronger than defenses, which means that the initiative roll you're talking about gets increasingly important - and at later levels, fights are often over in a single turn, meaning the initiative roll becomes the single decider of some fights. See KotC2 for extreme examples.

This is why Owlcat chose to pump up enemy defenses even on normal difficulty, which the PF-spergs who don't understand the system they're fans of criticized. But which was ultimately a sound decision, of course. It's kind of hilarious that even with Owlcat's megabuffs to defenses, they're still laughably weak compared to offense options.

The catch is that I don't think you can get the incredibly complex customization of these systems without them breaking down to some extend in actual play.

Codex will be Codex and argue everything in terms of "bad" vs "good", which isn't wrong per se, but it's often more fecund to look at these things in terms of scale. If you want tight, tactical combat that ebbs and flows and where different system assets play off of each other (giving time for your turn-to-turn decisions in the fights themselves to be just as important as the build situations you made), you probably can't implement a billion of those assets - the resource burden of making sure everything fits in the same framework becomes so big you can't even bugfix properly, let alone playtest. OTOH, if you want complex character customization where every character feels wholly unique as an output of player expression, don't expect the interactions of all those billion system assets to play well with each other.

5E for most people (including me) is a step too far towards making the combat work at the expense of customization, but I don't think it missed the mark by as much as Codexers generally claim. In fact, I think the removal of feats is the core issue. If they implemented "half-feats" (half-feats as opposed to the full 5E feats which are incredibly strong) that you gained every third level I think 5E would be pretty close to a sweet spot where customization feels less constrained but combat still functions. Bounded accuracy and removal of the modifier jungle isn't really a cost as it didn't impact the possibility space for customization, they just fixed issues with making the combat work. The reverse is true for the removal of feats, which vastly hurt customization. Indeed, this is exactly what many third-party character expansion modules do, e.g.: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/214641/Character-Options-Talents-5e while almost no one is trying to bring modifier creep back or find ways to dismiss bounded accuracy, even though those would be incredibly easy (since they're just soft limits you can totally ignore).

I'd also add some more choices within class and subclass frameworks, but my point is that the removal of feats is a huge component of why 5E can feel restrictive.
 
Last edited:

Fedora Master

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5e is 4e masquerading as a real ruleset and only dummies take it as such.
The similarities between 5e and 4e are astounding:
- both have classes;
- both have dragonborns;
- both have a number in their names.

Honestly, I can't even tell them apart most of the times.
5e is just as railroaded in its class advancement as 4e and even less deadly.
 
Self-Ejected

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
I think the biggest thing I hate about 3.xe is the initiative system. Ya got your base stat, modifiers, bonuses, then ya roll a d20 on top of it, then add it all up. If you roll low, you die. Roll or die kind gameplay. When it shouldn't be the case for just getting to decide who gets to act. Should be through actual playing rather than losing d20 die. I don't think encounters should be lost or won by basis of that alone.

You're mistaking the symptom for the cause. The actual issue is that in 3.5/PF offense is insanely, preposterously stronger than defenses, which means that the initiative roll you're talking about gets increasingly important - and at later levels, fights are often over in a single turn, meaning the initiative roll becomes the single decider of some fights. See KotC2 for extreme examples.

This is why Owlcat chose to pump up enemy defenses even on normal difficulty, which the PF-spergs who don't understand the system they're fans of criticized. But which was ultimately a sound decision, of course. It's kind of hilarious that even with Owlcat's megabuffs to defenses, they're still laughably weak compared to offense options.

The catch is that I don't think you can get the incredibly complex customization of these systems without them breaking down to some extend in actual play.

Codex will be Codex and argue everything in terms of "bad" vs "good", which isn't wrong per se, but it's often more fecund to look at these things in terms of scale. If you want tight, tactical combat that ebbs and flows and where different system assets play off of each other (giving time for your turn-to-turn decisions in the fights themselves to be just as important as the build situations you made), you probably can't implement a billion of those assets - the resource burden of making sure everything fits in the same framework becomes so big you can't even bugfix properly, let alone playtest. OTOH, if you want complex character customization where every character feels wholly unique as an output of player expression, don't expect the interactions of all those billion system assets to play well with each other.

5E for most people (including me) is a step too far towards making the combat work at the expense of customization, but I don't think it missed the mark by as much as Codexers generally claim. In fact, I think the removal of feats is the core issue. If they implemented "half-feats" (half-feats as opposed to the full 5E feats which are incredibly strong) that you gained every third level I think 5E would be pretty close to a sweet spot where customization feels less constrained but combat still functions. Bounded accuracy and removal of the modifier jungle isn't really a cost as it didn't impact the possibility space for customization, they just fixed issues with making the combat work. The reverse is true for the removal of feats, which vastly hurt customization. Indeed, this is exactly what many third-party character expansion modules do, e.g.: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/214641/Character-Options-Talents-5e while almost no one is trying to bring modifier creep back or find ways to dismiss bounded accuracy, even though those would be incredibly easy (since they're just soft limits you can totally ignore).

I'd also add some more choices within class and subclass frameworks, but my point is that the removal of feats is a huge component of why 5E can feel restrictive.
That was a very nice read. Thank you very much for it. Don't have much else to add other than the fact that you hit it on the head with how fights, due to the nature of offensive potential getting ridiculous on higher levels, can be finished within a short amount of rounds; thus initiative serves as a means to "delay', so to say, the encounter.

It just feels bad though when things go from one extreme to another. A high level enemy wizard acting first can pretty much end a party and vice versa for player wizard. I don't know if it's related but I liked how Dungeon of Naheulbeuk did things. Enemy wizard acting first didn't mean a complete game over, same applies to player as well. So this gives both parties time to actually play the game, make tactical decisions, formualte strategy on how to win, focus on minutia of the encounter - which is, ya know, the actual fun stuff.
 

Cryomancer

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offense is insanely, preposterously stronger than defenses, which means that the initiative roll you're talking about gets increasingly important - and at later levels, fights are often over in a single turn, meaning the initiative roll becomes the single decider of some fights. See KotC2 for extreme examples.

This is absolutely not truth. Deathward, an 4th tier spell can make the PC immune to wail of the banshee, an 9th tier spell. Stoneskin, mirror image, displacement, energy immunity(...) There are LOTS of powerful defensive stuff in 3E. And not only spells, magical gear is also incredible powerful. Only because an lv 4 nobody can't survive being shot by a cannon, doesn't means that "who wins the initiative wins" in 3/2E.

As for KoTC2, KoTC2 removed the "pre buffing" and it made winning initiative extremely more important. However, you still can make powerful gear to protect yourself from nasty effects. I played many high level PvP tournaments in NWN1. Most mages VS mages fights could lasts more than a minute if both players are good.
 

Grunker

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offense is insanely, preposterously stronger than defenses, which means that the initiative roll you're talking about gets increasingly important - and at later levels, fights are often over in a single turn, meaning the initiative roll becomes the single decider of some fights. See KotC2 for extreme examples.

Only because an lv 4 nobody can't survive being shot by a cannon

Lolno. Lethality gets higher as you level up, not lower. You can counteract this at a table where you can implement "fixes" like enemy precasts, positioning and straight up special abilities, but even omegabuffed Unfair dragons in Kingmaker are one-shot by a decently competent party.
 
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Only because an lv 4 nobody can't survive being shot by a cannon, doesn't means that "who wins the initiative wins" in 3/2E.
The same thing can be done in 4e/5e if an enemy's hp were simply reduced or the damage a canon does is increased to make more sense within the order of magnitude. BTW, people have survived hits from cannon balls IRL, they were usually maimed missing an arm or leg though (something most 3e/2e computer games have never accounted for either).
As for KoTC2, KoTC2 removed the "pre buffing" and it made winning initiative extremely more important.
There's still prebuffing in KoTC2. The buffs are more generous though as you no longer have to recast mage armor or bark-skin every few minutes and you can set up the buffs allowed outside of combat to be auto-casted after rests. The only big difference is that things like "shield" or similar effects that are supposed to be situational or have shorter durations can only be cast in combat. Even with prebuffs, initiative is always king. If you go first and get off a dispel before your enemies move, then you just beat the prebuffs on enemies before enemies could do anything. On top of that, "flatfooted" in 3.5 alone gives going first a huge advantage since a large amount of a character's armor class can be gone for the round and makes enemies susceptible to certain things like sneak attack regardless of an other factors.
 

Cryomancer

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Lethality gets higher as you level up, not lower.

And that is an GOOD thing. Mainly in 2E. An magician who dedicated his entire live to magic having extremely devastating spells makes sense. The same magician having mildly more powerful spells and at the same time, be able to soak meteors failing from the sky makes no sense. And AD&D is not as high lethality as other CRPGs like GURPS. In GURPS, an sniper with an .338 lapua magnum rifle can kill the average PC at 1.5km away multiple times assuming average damage. In high magical/high tech settings, mages don't try to soak large caliber shots, they try to create mists, illusions and so on to defend themselves from long range weaponry. It forces PCs to be way more cautious and strategic.

but even omegabuffed Unfair dragons in Kingmaker are one-shot by a decently competent party.

Any video? Because here is one of the most OP min/max characters vs Lanthern king >



You could provide examples of this in BG1/2? I can't think in a way to reliable one shot Firkraag. The closest thing would be to cast an chain contingency of lower resist + lower resist + greater malison and then, finger of death him, so he would only have 5%MR and have to do the save at -8 or be instantly slain which is roughly 60% chances of two turn kill the dragon. But it requires an very high caster level.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There are too many fucking classes, hence the difficulty in balancing them all.

Fighter
Cleric
Wizard
Druid
Bard
Rogue

This is all you need, every other class can be made to fit into these classes with the use of different feats/skills. Simplify everything to these classes and you will marvel at how much easier it will be to balance the combat.
 

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